At A Loss With My Oh Dog

[centitout]

Hi everyone,just looking for some advice .I moved in with my partner 4 mths ago and he has a 12 month old "staffy" that he bought(BYB) when a pup.I dont have any positive experiences with "staffies",and this one is no different.He isnt the typical staffordshire bull terrier he was sold as ,he is a amstaff to all appearences.He is entire(until monday).The problem is i had to take my old boy Demon back due to the owner having a heart attack,and things werent too bad,Major and him are fine UNTIL any of us go out the back,or come back inside,then he will just go up and rip into Demon.

He is the most excitable dog i have ever seen,and we have been working on training,but he is so demanding attention wise.It has escalated in the last week to where Major is showing signs of guarding David(my partner) from his 5 yr old nephew especially and other people,and the trying to provoke a fight with Demon is becoming constant.

As soon as he does this he is put in the quiet area of the yard for a while,as punishment/corrections havent worked.

He is getting desexed on monday,injected with MPA and i was going to put him on clomicalm as well ,but after showing signs of wanting to bite small kids if they go near me or david,i dont trust him at all,but i dont want to put him down without trying other measures first.

I know seperating the dogs will solve the DA,but it is the human aggression i am concerned about-i have a zero tolerance policy for HA,I just want an honest opinion on whether this dog can be trained out of it.I dont want a dog that we are always worried in case one of my kids goes out the back,he is obsessive about moving things ie lawnmowers,kids scooters,wheelie bins etc,i get everyone to ignore him when he demands attention,he gets fed last,i use the TOT but his behaviour is getting worse.Is there anything else i can do ?

[poodlefan]

Other than seeking experienced professional help, I'd say your options are pretty limited.

However, if the dog is guarding your partner Centitout, the problem may not lie entirely with the dog. Your partners relationship with the dog may be a factor.

Some of the big city behaviourists do phone consults - might be worth looking into.

I have to say the HA doesn't sound at all like typical Stafford behaviour.

Edited January 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[persephone]

It sounds as if the new living arrangements may have exacerbated behaviours he has . Not good.

I would recommend a professional assessment if you can -then make the decision.I agree with you - any sign of HA , in a situation where there are kids, is not on.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Tough situation, I have been in your shoes and it sucks for everyone - you, your OH and the dogs. I guess there are a few things I would consider:

- Can Demon be found a new home?

- Is this due to the upheaval of the staffie's changed living circumstances, ie, once he just had your OH, how he has a whole bunch of people to deal with? If so, can that be mitigated somehow?

- Would you consider a pro trainer consult? I know you're a breeder with a lot of experience with a challenging breed, but sometimes in a couples situation it takes an outsider to get a good take on the situation and make things feel a little more even for both parties. You may be too close to the situation to make good decisions about it.

- To what extent is your OH prepared to acknowledge the issues?

- Is living apart again an option?

No need to answer those here btw - they are pretty personal - I just put them up as thinking points.

Re the drugs, if it was me, I would not implement three biochemical options at once because you're hammering the dog's system with changes, which I suspect is part of the problem in the first place. I understand the desire to get it fixed yesterday, particularly with kids involved, but I would castrate first, manage with separation and watch to see if there was an improvement. Then I might consider the Clomicalm, but it's pretty expensive and a speaker phone consult with you, your OH and pro-trainer or vet behaviourist might be a better use of your money in the meantime. I have seen Clomicalm "kindof" work on some dogs and not at all on others. It's far from an ideal solution to this situation and a bit of an expensive crap shoot.

Sometimes these situations don't have a win/win outcome. While I agree with Pers that you don't muck around with HA and kids, I think if you value the relationship with your OH, you will have to show some empathy for the situation he is in too - essentially, unless you get some improvement, he is going to have to make a hard choice. Sorry to be such a ray of sunshine.

[Inevitablue]

Desexing should take some wind out of his very large spinnaker!

I'd then address his energy levels - what diet is he on?

Then sit your partner down and have a big chat about some serious new rules for the staffy. Call a good behaviour person, his issues are not uncommon, and easily changed. He is just controlling all the situations around him. A good behaviour person can put it all in context, give you the new rules for him, plus how to avoid confrontation with him while the new rules get accepted. So worth the dollars.

[Steve K9Pro]

The problem is i had to take my old boy Demon back due to the owner having a heart attack,and things werent too bad,Major and him are fine UNTIL any of us go out the back,or come back inside,then he will just go up and rip into Demon.

He is the most excitable dog i have ever seen,and we have been working on training,but he is so demanding attention wise.It has escalated in the last week to where Major is showing signs of guarding David(my partner) from his 5 yr old nephew especially and other people,and the trying to provoke a fight with Demon is becoming constant.

K9: It sounds like he is competing for the resource which is the attention you wish to give to other than him and by attacking the other dog he can stop that attention being given to the other dog.

I would pen him in the yard separate to your other dogs as a management strategy first, this will stop him practicing this habit and get the pressure off your other dog.

As soon as he does this he is put in the quiet area of the yard for a while,as punishment/corrections havent worked.

K9: Unfortunately the reward will have already come (the fight will be the reward)

He is getting desexed on monday,injected with MPA and i was going to put him on clomicalm as well ,but after showing signs of wanting to bite small kids if they go near me or david,i dont trust him at all,but i dont want to put him down without trying other measures first.

K9: ALl of the above options may be helpful,but if you go with them all at once, you may get adverse reactions or if you do get success, you want know where it came from. Best to work through a program with a Behaviourist near you and this will give you the best results.

I know seperating the dogs will solve the DA,but it is the human aggression i am concerned about-i have a zero tolerance policy for HA,I just want an honest opinion on whether this dog can be trained out of it.I dont want a dog that we are always worried in case one of my kids goes out the back,he is obsessive about moving things ie lawnmowers,kids scooters,wheelie bins etc,i get everyone to ignore him when he demands attention,he gets fed last,i use the TOT but his behaviour is getting worse.Is there anything else i can do ?

K9: I think the human aggression is just an extension of the behaviour he is displaying with the other dog, and once that is under control you will have the HA regress as well, but of course none of us have seen your dog, get some help.

[centitout]

at the moment we are both working,me 2 jobs and my OH long hours,12 days at a time,so going to Sydney is out of the question as the jobs we have we cant get time off unless a leg is hanging off.He is on the same food as Demon,mainly raw with small amount of coprice dry chicken and garlic?He gets walked everyday and we have a play/obedience session with balls and a stick as well.He gets praised with pats when he does the right thing,demanding attention is ignored-thats when he will out of the blue just go up to Demon and rip into him.We can tell from his behaviour now the warning signs ie stiff legged gait,lowered head,pricked ears and stiff tail that he is about to attack and can interrupt the attack most of the time.Then 5 mins later they are sleeping together-it is only when me or the partner is home.

Demon is desexed and has been very patient so far,he will have a go back as well though for which i dont blame him.

And yes,i have been trying to retrain the partner,he does a few things which are making things worse,like showing Demon attention,rough play etc.When i first met the dog at 8 mths he was exactly the same,so the upheaval,new family members i dont think have made a difference.

[Nekhbet]

sounds like a completely untrained dog. I would be tempted to hit the restart button on everything with him and treat him like an attitude filled baby puppy. Start tight again, lay down the law and stick to it firmly. I would also be separating him from your dog as he is not trustworthy and I suppose your boy will only take so much crap before he retaliates. Remember also a dog that has had his way for so long will not want to change - its natural for them to escalate before they accept change. Of course you may be looking at a genetic component as well in his behaviour.

If I had him sent down to me he would live in a crate and all other times on lead with me. His diet would be changed to a lower protein, lower grain diet (something like a rice/beg with a little meat if kibble is not good) I would rule that dogs life completely and advancing degrees of freedom would have to be earned and proved especially if he has shown HA. It;s complete reconditioning, correct/ignore the bad and reward the good like a baby dog again.

[corvus]

Do you think it's redirected aggression due to frustration, or resource guarding? Or both? Has he been taught good things come to those who wait quietly in general, not just for meals and the likes? If his behaviour is getting worse, could one of the more measures you have already taken be detrimental? For example, if he's used to getting what he wants and you try to change the rules on him, he might be getting frustrated. If he's a proactive kind of dog, frustration could have a high probability of leading to redirected aggression. I have a dog like that and he needed to learn (and at times needs to be reminded!) that it's not the way to cope with frustration. If he goes over threshold, though, he is quite likely to forget, I suspect because it's a bit like punching a punching bag and releases some of that pent up rage, so probably feels good on a really basic, emotional level. I can assure you, he only does it to dogs that will let him.

Anyway, it might explain why corrections haven't worked. With some dogs if they are already upset for some reason, if you then change rules on them that have always worked, they have no means to handle this situation. I think they get frustrated, and being thwarted on top of that heightens the feelings of tension and that increases arousal and suddenly biting someone becomes a possible way to alleviate these unpleasant feelings. If it does, then even if you punish him right after he won't care. He's already fixed his emotional imbalance and that's exactly what he wanted. It's very powerful, I believe. So, maybe he associates people in the yard with being thwarted and that leads him to do what has fixed this for him in the past, which is to attack Demon.

Or I could be completely off base! I'm always careful with frustration, which means that sometimes if I'm going to change a rule I do it in small increments or circuitously by teaching an incompatible behaviour so the dog knows the new rules before I make the old ones redundant.

[centitout]

I can get time off in a few months,i would like to book him in at K9 force,we will seperate him first and go back to the absolute basics again-he will lose his jewels on monday so that may take him down a small notch too He stresses if he is away from Demon though,and screams(that staffy scream!!) so should we walk them still together or seperate?

[persephone]

Obviously, the desexing will not alter things drastically .. a lot of his behaviour is now learned . Walking them on lead together I see as a very good thing ..they still keep their 'pack' thing going

[Nekhbet]

dont let him throw a tantrum and scream to get his own way. YOu do things the way you want and if he doesnt want to comply, cover his crate and let his tantrum come out by himself. Be ready for some awesome ones on the way though.

[centitout]

We also have a problem with the neighbours bloody jack russel and german shepard running up and down the fence(solid corrugated iron) barking and growling if our dogs are anywhere near it,or we are near it ,or if we walk out the back Could frustration at no t being able to get to the yapping shits of things be contributing to it.And no,we cant fence it off unfortunately ,that would be a solution to that problem but not practical unfortunately.

Forgot to mention,Major doesnt fence fight with them at all surprisingly.

Edited January 5, 2011 by centitout