Toddler's Cheek Ripped Off By Family Pet

[shyfig]

Keep your dogs separated from your cats physically when feeding.

Thanks for your very welcome advice! How would you recommend separating them? They are all inside animals.....Would feeding them separately and supervising be well enough? I could tether my BC whilst the cats are eating?

I don't use or even have a crate....any recommendations about crates for BC's would be welcome also.

My cats eat on the bench in the Laundry, or the table outside and I always remove the dogs when the cats are eating. Cat food bowls are never on the ground.

One dog guards his buried bones from the cats to the point he sat outside in the rain all night until 4am. This is an inside dog! So cats and dogs are separated here at feeding times.

You may just need to put dog outside for the short time it takes the cats to feed or feed the cats in a different room to where the dog is.

Tethering your dog would be OK as long as it wasn't for long and you weren't far away.

Thanks....I'll take this advice on board

[Hotwyr]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

As this thread and others on the forum have demonstrated, there are people who think encouraging a child to interfere with a dog's food reinforces the child's higher place in the pack order. Pity more people don't own and use crates for feeding times IMO.

This is a text book bite incident that will be played out in dozens of family homes this year. All lthe sadder because its easy to prevent and in sensationalising the incident, the media do nothing to assist.

Agree agree agree,

It never ceases to amaze me how people manage to put themselves and others (usually children) in these totally preventable situations.

I have 11 dogs and I can take the food bowls off every single one in the middle of them feeding - it's a great party trick - but that's all it is. I most certainly wouldn't do it if I didn't have too - and in all honesty I am not sure why I would have too... but anyway I can do it

They also get fed in their own kennel BY THEMSELVES!

Never never never would I have any child near any dog that was eating anything. It's a recipe for disaster. No dog is 100% reliable (unless it's a stuffed one maybe) no breed is 100% reliable no matter what the breeder, seller, internet, dictionary ... blah blah blah says.

Every dog can bite, every dog will guard something, be it food, toys, other dogs, people....

I guess people will never learn.

[siks3]

Stonebridge In my eyes you are a good dog owner.

I've seen how most people feed there animals calling them sweetie and talking to them like they are babies and the dogs get all excited.

It is this type of practice that causes problems the owners are rewarding unruly behavior before the dog gets fed then they just plonk the bowl down as a reward for it and walk away.

As soon as my dog sees me pick up his bowl he goes to his spot on the lawn and sits and waits.

I put the bowl down and walk away feed the cat and the birds then simply walk past and tap his bowl then he eats.

His food isn't his food until I say it is and I can tell him to leave it and sit and he will sit and wait even if I approach his bowl and I make it practice to put my head near his he will back off and sit and wait until i tap his bowl again.

Feeding time is a calm time at my house.

If I want it it is mine. If anybody including my kids approach him while he is eating he will sit and wait.

There are only two times in a day my dog is permitted to interact with my children and that is when he sees them first thing in the morning and he gives them a big kiss and they give him a cuddle then he goes outside. when they are outside he follows them around at a distance calmly he is not permitted to chase and rough play EVER with any member of the family unless invited to do so.

There is an invisible bubble around my kids that he is not allowed near unless I tell him it is ok to. This involves me getting one of his toys.

He gets his toy when he sits and waits for me to give it to him then I tell him to "go on" and the running around like a puppy and play can start.

Pretty basic stuff and basic doggy manners Training is 24hours a day 7 days a week.

[poodlefan]

Siks:

I've seen how most people feed there animals calling them sweetie and talking to them like they are babies and the dogs get all excited.

It is this type of practice that causes problems the owners are rewarding unruly behavior before the dog gets fed then they just plonk the bowl down as a reward for it and walk away.

*snort* You must have been in a lot of houses at mealtimes to know how "most people" feed their dogs.

I don't allow my dogs to interfere with each other's food. I'd certainly not allow a child to. Mealtimes are a routine that each dog knows. Dogs are fed in the same order, in the same spots. I always supervise.

Hard as I try, I can't stop my dogs from getting excited though. I must be a lousy trainer.

ETA: I still don't think people are getting the point about why some of us don't recommend getting children to take a dog's food. The issue is not whether or not YOU can control this process with YOUR DOGS but what happens when it goes wrong. The potential results of it going wrong could be lethal where large dogs and small kids are concerned. Suggesting that other people who may or may not be savvy enough do this with dogs you've never met may have tragic consequences. Any small amount of research will inform you that a dog that' feeding presents a higher risk of aggression to children - even their own dog. Plenty of child safety and dog trainer advice for parents commences with this as the first statement:

Teach your children never to disturb a dog that's sleeping, feeding or caring for pups. It don't get much plainer than that.

Did people not read the posts from folk who'd tried the 'take the food from the dog' practice and made their dogs resource guarding WORSE?

Edited January 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[Souff]

I guess people will never learn.

They just don't seem to .... the scenario is as old as dogs themselves.

Souff

[Cosmolo]

Asal- impossible to say what the dogs intentions were with certainty but regardless of whether its play based behaviour or not, it could certainly escalate and i wouldn't be wanting to place people in uncontrolled situations with a dog who was exhibiting such behaviours.

[Malamum]

Some people seem to see the ability to take food off a dog as the line between a good and a bad dog. No one wants a bad dog so lots of people like to prove they have a good dog by pulling out the taking away food party trick (to steal a previous posters phrase).

I have two dogs, one who is as gentle as anything and you can just reach your hand in while she is scarffing down her food and remove anything. If you tried that on the other one, the probability of being bitten is very high. I can however verbally command him to stop eating and to sit, which he will do and food can be removed at that point. The gentle ones brain switches off once she starts eating though. She won't start until she is told she can, but getting her to stop by verbal command alone is much much harder.

Both were trained the same. They are just wired differently. I would never let anyone, let alone a child near either of them while they are eating.

[mish13]

I hate to think what the parents were doing and thinking.

I believe this incident happened in Nimbin, have any of you been to Nimbin? I do have some very normal friends that lives there but the place is full of very feral people. The kids run around dirty with no shoes and very little supervision. (parents are too stoned) The animals are even worse so I cant see any dog training going on or teaching kids to respect animals. I would be very surprised if it was a pure breed Labrador

I do hope the little girl is ok

[poodlefan]

Malamum:

Some people seem to see the ability to take food off a dog as the line between a good and a bad dog. No one wants a bad dog so lots of people like to prove they have a good dog by pulling out the taking away food party trick (to steal a previous posters phrase).

I think some see it as the line between a dominant dog and a submissive one. Their conclusion is that if you can take food from your dog, you must be dominant to it. If you know that resource guarding has no direct relationship to pack hierarchy, I'm not sure how you conclude that being able to take food from a dog makes you higher up in that pack hierarchy.

I can tell you right now that no dog in its right mind is going to attempt to take food from the lowest dog in the pack in my house. That includes the alpha. At 4.5 kg, she's defended her treasures from FHRPs big boys.. much to their bafflement. Being snapped at because you walk to close to the pink lead does tend to confuse them.

I think Ian Dunbar's comment on this was something along the lines of:

"The rule is that whatever the alpha dog wants, it gets. Unless, of course, a bitch has it".

Another issue to consider is that different dogs value different resources .. differently :D Ordinary food, treats, bones, toys, beds... all may be of different value to a dog and that value can be situational. That's why a nice black and white policy about kids, dogs and food is easier for everyone.

Concluding that your kids will be Ok with your dog because they can take its food bowl might go right out the window if Rover steals the KFC bones from the garbage or has a marrow bone. And the results of getting it wrong are potentially tragic.

Edited January 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[Malamum]

Malamum:

Some people seem to see the ability to take food off a dog as the line between a good and a bad dog. No one wants a bad dog so lots of people like to prove they have a good dog by pulling out the taking away food party trick (to steal a previous posters phrase).

I think some see it as the line between a dominant dog and a submissive one. Their conclusion is that if you can take food from your dog, you must be dominant to it. If you know that resource guarding has no relationship to pack hierarchy, I'm not sure how you conclude that being able to take food from a dog makes you higher up in that pack hierarchy.

I agree with you but I think those that are getting into pack hierarchy in regards to resource guarding and being able to remove food are those that have a degree of understanding about dog behaviour. Whether they are right or wrong is something I'll leave to the experts to answer as I don't have enough knowledge to comment.

I was referring to Joe Public when I mentioned people seeing it as a defining factor between having a good or bad dog. These people don't understand dog behaviour one iota and truly think that you must be able to take food off a good family dog. They are generally the same numpties who think the dog is humping their leg because it's horny.

[poodlefan]

Malamum:

I agree with you but I think those that are getting into pack hierarchy in regards to resource guarding and being able to remove food are those that have a degree of understanding about dog behaviour

The level of that degree of understanding is what's at stake. The popular understanding of pack hierarchy in domestic dogs is largely based on outdated research into captive wolves and to a reasonable extent has been discredited. Yes, there are social hierarchies with domestic dogs (and wolves) but they tend to be more fluid, dominance is social not physical dominance (for the most part) and the concept has less application in an interspecies relationship.

I think the subtleties are lost on a lot of dog owners.

Sadly, its pretty common for dog owners to conclude that every issue between dogs and humans is grounded in the concept that dogs are always trying to get one up on us. The corollary to that view is the conclusion that every behavioural issue that dogs demonstrate can be cured by "dominating" the dog.

Alpha rolling is one very real practice founded on the misunderstandings I've outlined above. Its also resulted in its fair share of dog bites and its been the dogs that have paid for that misunderstanding over the years.

There is merit in the concept that we can control pack status to a degree by controlling resources but you have to ask yourself how these messages are conveyed to the dog. The notion that a small child's behaviour under the supervision of an adult will establish the child as always higher up the pack order than a dog is flawed IMO. Will a large dog (or any dog for that matter) understand that a small child must always be deferred to? What happens if the adult isn't there? What happens if its a different resource in a different household setting. Will both child and dog understand the impact of those changes? I know others disagree but I think my view is the safer one. Isn't that what matters?

Edited January 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[Hotwyr]

Absolutely PF!!!!

Edited January 6, 2011 by Hotwyr

[Bullbreedlover]

While I am not defending myself nor my actions, simply because I do not need to, alot of people who have posted on here need to realise a few things.

Firstly for those of you who think I have acted totally irresponsible, lets take a step back and understand that in no way would I ever place any child in any situation where I think harm would come to them...ever. I am 100% totally in favour of the general public being properly educated in the training of dogs with children.

Secondly I know my dogs, inside and out. I know which ones are totally totally bomb proof and which arent. yeah right! you may think, every dog has its day.

If you dont believe me that is fine. I am not worried if you dont.

I have been involved with rearing, training, showing dogs and general dog care since I was very very young. I am also not an idiot.

While you may all be generalising now in regards to people and how they bring up their dogs, many of you for starters were not and you posts stopped very very short of insinuating(or actually did insinuate) that I was a complete idiot and totally irresponsible.

If you still believe that, then that is up to you. As I said before, I am not defending my actions to you because you neither know me nor the circumstances of what I have posted.

But thanks all the same for your wonderful comments. Especially those from the instant experts.

eta

Just in case you were also wondering I am fully aware of resource guarding and pack order. But thank you also for your comments.

Oh and by the way I just fed my dogs and put my hands in their feed bowls. My boy even lifted his head up while constantly wagging his tail and gave me a food kiss. My young girl who is the lowest in our household behaved beautifully.

Oh yes these same dogs (and one which I recently rehomed) can all sit and wait patiently to be spoon fed yoghurt or to be individually given treat biscuits. The same dogs of which I can take a chewbie or toy from.

No I am not patting myself on the back. Never have, but once again I am not an idiot.

Edited January 6, 2011 by stonebridge

[Aidan3]

stonebridge, I'm not going to wear this. I didn't insinuate anything about you and made every effort to clear up your misconception. I disagreed with your premise, and this is a discussion forum. Not everyone will agree with you all the time.

Do you seriously believe that anyone who doesn't agree with your every word must be an "instant expert", who makes "dumb-ass posts" and whose "knowledge is lacking"?

[poodlefan]

Stonebridge while I disagree with your practice I have not made any insinuation that you are irresponsible or an idiot. I don't consider myself a dog behaviour 'expert' and that is why I limit my advice here and in classes to those where the outcomes for owners and families won't result in hospital visits if things don't go to plan. Where dogs and young kids are concerned the ONLY fail-safe method of dealing with feeding both is separation. I think that's the only way to go.

So do a lot of highly respected trainers.

EFS

Edited January 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[Bullbreedlover]

Stonebridge while I disagree with your practice I have not made any insinuation that you are irresponsible or an idiot. I don't consider myself a dog behaviour 'expert' and that is why I limit my advice here and in classes to those where the out outcomes for owners and families won't result in hospital visits if things don't go to plan. Where dogs and young kids are concerned the ONLY fail-safe method of dealing with feeding both is separation. I think that's the only way to go.

So do a lot of highly respected trainers.

I realise that Pf

I would also never consider myself an expert.

And yes general advice to the public is always the safest.

[poodlefan]

Stonebridge while I disagree with your practice I have not made any insinuation that you are irresponsible or an idiot. I don't consider myself a dog behaviour 'expert' and that is why I limit my advice here and in classes to those where the out outcomes for owners and families won't result in hospital visits if things don't go to plan. Where dogs and young kids are concerned the ONLY fail-safe method of dealing with feeding both is separation. I think that's the only way to go.

So do a lot of highly respected trainers.

I realise that Pf

I would also never consider myself an expert.

And yes general advice to the public is always the safest.

Glad we agree. When it comes to kids, I think as dog folk we have a huge responsiblility to keep them safe whether we are parents or not.

[Toolz]

my dog knows that he doesnt eat till he is told he can which means my son is able to feed him but once he is given his release command my son knows to stay well away from him even tho i can walk in and just whip his bowl out from under his nose with no problems my son knows not to try it cos its not worth the risk.. some people need to train their kids not just their dogs...

a good well trained KID is one that knows to stay the f away from a dog thats eating!!

[centitout]

my dog knows that he doesnt eat till he is told he can which means my son is able to feed him but once he is given his release command my son knows to stay well away from him even tho i can walk in and just whip his bowl out from under his nose with no problems my son knows not to try it cos its not worth the risk.. some people need to train their kids not just their dogs...

a good well trained KID is one that knows to stay the f away from a dog thats eating!!

Finally Add sleeping to that as well!

Edited January 13, 2011 by centitout

[Toolz]

this thread has given me a wake up and i have just had my son feed the dog and make sure he remembers the rule to step away from his food dish before giving him his release command.. he did really well and i think we might get him doing that more often so that the dog remember that my boy comes before him in the pack order..