Aidan3 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The two young children in this household are above the dog in pecking order and they always have been. These children can, in their own property sit, down and wait command this dog. If you dont believe me thats fine. I dont care. The feed issue here is not the only circumstance that develops a pecking order. My dogs will do pretty much anything for my daughter, including giving her food, but it's definitely conditioned and nothing to do with pecking order. The main objection I would have to using terms like "pecking order" is that people might form unrealistic ideas about how risky their child's and dog's behaviour is based on their perception of pecking order. As PF has said, the lowest ranking wolves will resource guard from the highest ranking wolf. Puppies will resource guard, too. There doesn't seem to be a canid, wild or domestic, that gives a fig about how big or small or dominant or submissive they are when it comes to resource guarding. So if people believe that their two year old occupies a higher rung on the pecking order, and that this will prevent resource guarding, then they could be in for a tragic shock. Similarly, if people believe that it is a good idea to let their child handle their dog while eating because this will elevate their spot in the pecking order, they too could be in for a tragic shock if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) The two young children in this household are above the dog in pecking order and they always have been. These children can, in their own property sit, down and wait command this dog. If you dont believe me thats fine. I dont care. The feed issue here is not the only circumstance that develops a pecking order. My dogs will do pretty much anything for my daughter, including giving her food, but it's definitely conditioned and nothing to do with pecking order. The main objection I would have to using terms like "pecking order" is that people might form unrealistic ideas about how risky their child's and dog's behaviour is based on their perception of pecking order. As PF has said, the lowest ranking wolves will resource guard from the highest ranking wolf. Puppies will resource guard, too. There doesn't seem to be a canid, wild or domestic, that gives a fig about how big or small or dominant or submissive they are when it comes to resource guarding. So if people believe that their two year old occupies a higher rung on the pecking order, and that this will prevent resource guarding, then they could be in for a tragic shock. Similarly, if people believe that it is a good idea to let their child handle their dog while eating because this will elevate their spot in the pecking order, they too could be in for a tragic shock if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour. While I admit I dont know who you are, and seemingly you have no idea who I am, I find your post clearly insinuating that my knowledge of dog behaviour is seriously lacking. Clearly it seems that your knowledge and if I may be so bold quite alot of peoples knowledge(not yours poodlefan) of dog behaviour is seriously lacking. You have replied to my post Aidan2. Do you know my puppy people?(the dog is question is now 5 years old and is an entire male Bullmastiff who weighs approximately 60 kilos)The children are now 9 and 11. Perhaps if you did know my puppy people you wouldnt of posted such a dumb arse post like you did. I...yes me... (instructed my puppy owners(two very responsible people) to bring this boy up this way. Granted you may think that the extent of my knowledge of dog behaviour is somewhat limited.Thats fine. I dont think it is limited but we are all still learning. If you are not bringing up your dogs to learn to respect your children and for your chilrden to be greater than a dog in the pecking order then I would like to suggest that maybe you should seriously think about doing so. eta of course you should also be bringing up your children to respect your dogs and their space but in no way should your children be lower in the pack order. Edited January 5, 2011 by stonebridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffpup Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 what many of you seem to forget is how many times have you seen families where the parents were lovely people and their kid or kids were ferals?same can happen with dogs too What an awful comment, I would never describe any child as a "feral". Really? I guess you've never spent time in Canberra (where even people I know who love the place think a lot of children are feral); or even around Nimbin - where this incident apparently happened? Oh well. So how's life changed? Going back to the 50s when I was a kid, it was always the parents who fed the dogs, never ever the children. Everyone I knew was the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I didn't think Aidan insinuated that at all. But i agree with him with regards to lower ranking dogs resource guarding and conditioning being a likely explanation with regards to alot of good behaviour with children and dogs as opposed to pack structure. Pack structure is fluid and can be resource dependent. It is absolutely possible to have a lower ranked dog bite a child because at that moment the resource in question meant more to the dog than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) While I admit I dont know who you are, and seemingly you have no idea who I am, I find your post clearly insinuating that my knowledge of dog behaviour is seriously lacking. You've lost me, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? Perhaps if you did know my puppy people you wouldnt of posted such a dumb arse post like you did. Regardless of your interpretation of my post, that is a personal attack and not warranted nor appropriate. Yes, dogs should be taught to respect children. That is learned behaviour. If I must insinuate anything about your knowledge of dogs, it's that your premise is faulty. The most submissive (lowest in the pecking order) will resource guard from the highest, even tiny pups will do it. So if a child is higher in the pecking order, it won't prevent a tragedy. However, I would prefer that we didn't make it personal. I'm not interested in a pissing match and not everything is a contest to see who is higher in the pecking order I just don't agree with your premise, and I base this on scientific and anecdotal observations across species. My dogs will do pretty much anything for my daughter, including giving her food If you are not bringing up your dogs to learn to respect your children Edited January 5, 2011 by Aidan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I didn't think Aidan insinuated that at all. But i agree with him with regards to lower ranking dogs resource guarding and conditioning being a likely explanation with regards to alot of good behaviour with children and dogs as opposed to pack structure. Pack structure is fluid and can be resource dependent. It is absolutely possible to have a lower ranked dog bite a child because at that moment the resource in question meant more to the dog than anything else. Similarly, if people believe that it is a good idea to let their child handle their dog while eating because this will elevate their spot in the pecking order, they too could be in for a tragic shock if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour. Aidan was replying to my post what part of the above statement do you not understand ? Was he not insinuating that..... people who believe it is a good idea.... do not have a good idea of knowledge of dog behaviour? Of course it is possible that a lower ranked dog can bite a child Cosmolo. Any dog can bite. I can explain a terrifying situation which involved my sister and her family in regards to a resource aggressive dog and the circumstances involved, brought about in the most part by them not bringing the dog up properly. Whether a genetic predisposition was also involved I do not know. They blame themselves entirely. It was just very very fortunate that no one was hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Shall now wait for tobie to answer! No Stonebridge I am not refering to your post I am simply replying to Poodlefans comments. I do not have the time to read everyones posts as I am looking after my young children all day and only skim over the forum when I have a chance and even then I have at least one bub hanging off me. I think there is a big difference between experienced dog people and the average person who has no idea about dog behaviour. The average inexperienced person are whom I am referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 While I admit I dont know who you are, and seemingly you have no idea who I am, I find your post clearly insinuating that my knowledge of dog behaviour is seriously lacking. You've lost me, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? Perhaps if you did know my puppy people you wouldnt of posted such a dumb arse post like you did. Regardless of your interpretation of my post, that is a personal attack and not warranted nor appropriate. Yes, dogs should be taught to respect children. That is learned behaviour. If I must insinuate anything about your knowledge of dogs, it's that your premise is faulty. The most submissive (lowest in the pecking order) will resource guard from the highest, even tiny pups will do it. So if a child is higher in the pecking order, it won't prevent a tragedy. However, I would prefer that we didn't make it personal. I'm not interested in a pissing match and not everything is a contest to see who is higher in the pecking order I just don't agree with your premise, and I base this on scientific and anecdotal observations across species. My dogs will do pretty much anything for my daughter, including giving her food If you are not bringing up your dogs to learn to respect your children I dont do personal attacks. It gets me into trouble. Your post in itself was not warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Similarly, if people believe that it is a good idea to let their child handle their dog while eating because this will elevate their spot in the pecking order, they too could be in for a tragic shock if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour.Aidan was replying to my post what part of the above statement do you not understand ? Was he not insinuating that..... people who believe it is a good idea.... do not have a good idea of knowledge of dog behaviour? "...if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour" was what I wrote, you have highlighted it so presumably you read it? If that was the extent of your knowledge, then you would be making a terrible mistake. I didn't say it was the extent of your knowledge, and I wasn't even referring to you but to people who might read what you had read and think that alone was enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sorry i wasn't clear- i was referring specifically to resource guarding, not just 'lower ranked dogs biting'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sorry i wasn't clear- i was referring specifically to resource guarding, not just 'lower ranked dogs biting'. thats ok Cosmolo No worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I find these replies very interesting.My dogs are the lowest in the order of pack members in my family. A dog I bred (Bullmastiff), who is now 5 years old has been brought up with his family(and he is a big dog) and the children have participated in feeding him right from when they picked him up at 8 weeks old. The two children have taken food away from this dog and successfully placed it back in front of him while he was told to sit and wait. The two children have always been the higher in the pecking order. I ask you.....Is that wrong??? The dam of this dog whom I still have with me has been part of our grand daughters life. Our grand daughter could take a ball or food from her mouth. .....Is that wrong??? Where I board my dogs, one of the children who helps with feeding the dogs can safely(and I mean safely) place my dogs food bowls down without fear. Is that wrong??? Am I doing or saing something wrong when bringing up my dogs or instructing my puppy people in the pecking order of their family pet. My dogs can have their food taken away from them by my husband and myself at any stage. They get fed separately from each other as they always have been. People bring dogs up in different ways. My Bullmastiffs are food orientated NOT food aggressive. Now is someone going to tell me I am doing it all wrong?? Its not wrong unless it goes wrong. Ive got lots of kids and lots of grandkids and Im as confident as any that my dogs wouldnt guard their food but what if just once it does. Not worth the risk. Kids in my house stay the hell away from dogs when they are eating because in case is soemthing NO ONE can 100 % guarantee and the consequences of just one slip are too great for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobie Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Everyone has a different opinion on what they think is ok and what they think is not and I am not going to lose sleep over anyone having a different opinion to me. Every dog and every situation is different but in general yes in my opinion it is very irresponsible to tell a child to take food from a dog as the slight chance that the child could get bitten is simply not worth it. Fair enough you can risk being bitten yourself if you beleive you can trust the dog but if your child was bitten was it worth it. I think everyone would agree that no it was not. Anyway I have kids to get to bed and animals to feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Sorry i wasn't clear- i was referring specifically to resource guarding, not just 'lower ranked dogs biting'. i notice it says underdog traing and behaviour? nice to see you know behaviour, ive only observed not been taught as i gather you have. what on earth is a maremma thinking when it comes at you on its hindlegs and grabs your shoulder? then drops and takes your just about entire hip in ints jaws? didnt break the skin, but holes in the clothes though. im scared witless of it now and ive known the darn thing since a pup. my friend keeps saying hes just playing? the bark doesnt sound like playing to me, i think hes dying to sink em in and working up the courage. heard hes done it to someone else now as well. never seen any posts on marammas biting people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) after this last attack i fear this thing could kill if i turned up and no one was home. soo no more going no matter how much my friend keeps saying hes fine. am i really just being a coward like they think? have to admit i was so terrified as my hip dissappered into his mouth almost grabbed a shovel so close to try and chase him off. but thought if i act agressive maybe ill have him really attack n hes taller than me Edited January 5, 2011 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I dont do personal attacks. Are you serious? I'm one of the few who hasn't openly disagreed with your practice, only your premise. I attempted to clear up your misconception. Made it clear that I didn't want to make it personal. More than enough wasted effort for one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyfig Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 and the resource guarding began at about 7 months.. he was fine till then. That's interesting...my BC is 8mths old and started food and toy guarding at about 7 months also. Mainly with our male cat..... female cat can wander over and start nibbling his food and he doesn't like it but waits for me to come and move her. Same with toys. I've wondered if there can be territorial issues between males of different species. No problems with me or my older, supervised boys. So sad he had a brain tumour and had to be PTS Yes, I have seen dogs resource guard against different species. Territoriality is a different thing. Keep your dogs separated from your cats physically when feeding. There is potential for a change in your situation, the signals are very subtle, and it could be dangerous. Thanks for your very welcome advice! How would you recommend separating them? They are all inside animals.....Would feeding them separately and supervising be well enough? I could tether my BC whilst the cats are eating? I don't use or even have a crate....any recommendations about crates for BC's would be welcome also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Can you feed him or them in laundry or something like that?? Or have a baby gate seperating them while eating?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Rules Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Keep your dogs separated from your cats physically when feeding. Thanks for your very welcome advice! How would you recommend separating them? They are all inside animals.....Would feeding them separately and supervising be well enough? I could tether my BC whilst the cats are eating? I don't use or even have a crate....any recommendations about crates for BC's would be welcome also. My cats eat on the bench in the Laundry, or the table outside and I always remove the dogs when the cats are eating. Cat food bowls are never on the ground. One dog guards his buried bones from the cats to the point he sat outside in the rain all night until 4am. This is an inside dog! So cats and dogs are separated here at feeding times. You may just need to put dog outside for the short time it takes the cats to feed or feed the cats in a different room to where the dog is. Tethering your dog would be OK as long as it wasn't for long and you weren't far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Everyone has a different opinion on what they think is ok and what they think is not and I am not going to lose sleep over anyone having a different opinion to me. Every dog and every situation is different but in general yes in my opinion it is very irresponsible to tell a child to take food from a dog as the slight chance that the child could get bitten is simply not worth it. Fair enough you can risk being bitten yourself if you beleive you can trust the dog but if your child was bitten was it worth it. I think everyone would agree that no it was not. Anyway I have kids to get to bed and animals to feed. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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