Toddler's Cheek Ripped Off By Family Pet

[tobie]

Cybergenuis I don't want an arguement, I think everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just feel very sorry for this child, family and dog. I deal with dog attacks all the time in my job and see how often the media get the report wrong and then people jump on the bandwagon making there own judgements. This is why laws were brought in banning certain breeds to satisfy the people making all the complaints.

I think its wrong to kick people when they are down. This family must be going through hell and awful feelings of guilt. I just think if they were to read all these comments from people they do not even know that they would find this extremely upsetting when they are all ready going through enough. You have to remember the majority of people do not work with dogs nor have any knowledge of dog behaviour nor do they really care. I think education is far better than critisism.

I have dealt with cases were very responsible dog owners have ended up in awful situations because of accidents. Imagine if your dog escaped your yard because the wind knocked the fence down and your dog was eating rubbish near where children were playing in a park and your dog bit a child. Who is at fault. Legally you are however do you think this makes you an irresponsible dog owner. I am interested in what you think because I would have to declare your dog dangerous if you were in NSW. Leaving you the option of your dog living in a Dangerous Dog enclosure which I do not beleive is very humane or you could opt to euthanise the dog.

[poodlefan]

Cybergenuis I don't want an arguement, I think everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just feel very sorry for this child, family and dog. I deal with dog attacks all the time in my job and see how often the media get the report wrong and then people jump on the bandwagon making there own judgements. This is why laws were brought in banning certain breeds to satisfy the people making all the complaints.

I think its wrong to kick people when they are down. This family must be going through hell and awful feelings of guilt. I just think if they were to read all these comments from people they do not even know that they would find this extremely upsetting when they are all ready going through enough. You have to remember the majority of people do not work with dogs nor have any knowledge of dog behaviour nor do they really care. I think education is far better than critisism.

I have dealt with cases were very responsible dog owners have ended up in awful situations because of accidents. Imagine if your dog escaped your yard because the wind knocked the fence down and your dog was eating rubbish near where children were playing in a park and your dog bit a child. Who is at fault. Legally you are however do you think this makes you an irresponsible dog owner. I am interested in what you think because I would have to declare your dog dangerous if you were in NSW. Leaving you the option of your dog living in a Dangerous Dog enclosure which I do not beleive is very humane or you could opt to euthanise the dog.

This was the family dog and the incident happened in the family home. That is statistically the most common scenario for a bite on a child and this child was at an age for the greatest risk of dog bite.

For all we know this was a one off and the child and the dog were usually separated at feeding time. But perhaps not - there are plenty of folk who have little understanding about dog behaviour and the same thinking that's seen some breeds banned promotes others as "reliable family dogs". Its flawed and this is one tragic proof of those flaws. Dogs are dogs and breed alone is no guarantee of safety or danger. You clearly know that tobie.

Clearly this was an accident. To suggest that it wasn't preventable however would be avoiding the facts. Kids, dogs and food are like kids and swimming pools - situations that call for close supervision and safety practices. All the guilt and hindsight in the world won't fix the scars this little girl will bear for the rest of her life. Education must start by acknowledging that this is an incident that simply shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

ETA: My guess is that we see a spike in such incidents at holiday times. Routines get disrupted, dogs get more treats and additonal people around can be a distraction.

Edited January 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Snoopy21]

Awesome post poodlefan! Thanks

[tobie]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.

This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

[poodlefan]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

As this thread and others on the forum have demonstrated, there are people who think encouraging a child to interfere with a dog's food reinforces the child's higher place in the pack order. Pity more people don't own and use crates for feeding times IMO.

This is a text book bite incident that will be played out in dozens of family homes this year. All lthe sadder because its easy to prevent and in sensationalising the incident, the media do nothing to assist.

Edited January 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[tobie]

As this thread and others on the forum have demonstrated, there are people who think allowing a child to interfere with a dog's food reinforces the child's higher place in the pack order.

IDIOTS.

If only people would use there brains. What happens when this idea fails. The child gets bitten. I have seen enough idiot owners at my work but have never heard such a stupid and risky thing to do to a child. Dogs do not see young children the way they see adults.

Sure enough the dog gets put to sleep or dumped at the pound.

[Greytmate]

incidently my resource guarder border collie came from a very famous kennel.. and not one other i saw from there had his behaviour.. so i fail to see how the breeder is the bad guy at all?

He may not be a bad breeder at all, but there is a question mark.

It is possible to identify resource guarding in pups when they are very young. Was it a well-bred litter? Did the breeder miss the signs of strong resource guarding in the pup and place it with an unsuspecting family?

Or was the dog only ever a mild resource guarder, and its behaviour escalated because of family management?

Did the dog have a brain tumour?

We just don't have the information. And nobody apart from people like us here would probably care to investigate it properly anyway.

[asal]

incidently my resource guarder border collie came from a very famous kennel.. and not one other i saw from there had his behaviour.. so i fail to see how the breeder is the bad guy at all?

He may not be a bad breeder at all, but there is a question mark.

It is possible to identify resource guarding in pups when they are very young. Was it a well-bred litter? Did the breeder miss the signs of strong resource guarding in the pup and place it with an unsuspecting family?

Or was the dog only ever a mild resource guarder, and its behaviour escalated because of family management?

Did the dog have a brain tumour?

We just don't have the information. And nobody apart from people like us here would probably care to investigate it properly anyway.

GUESS WHAT

he had to be put down at age 6 with a brain tumur

[asal]

and the resource guarding began at about 7 months.. he was fine till then.

[Crisovar]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.

This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

Sadly many people do, they are the same people who PTS the dog for snapping after it has been run over by kid on a rideon toy, cut with scissors or had things jammed down its ears. We have people walking on this planet that believe a dog should put up with anything their kids dish out. Every year dogs die because of the unreal expectations we as a society have.

[tobie]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.

This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

Sadly many people do, they are the same people who PTS the dog for snapping after it has been run over by kid on a rideon toy, cut with scissors or had things jammed down its ears. We have people walking on this planet that believe a dog should put up with anything their kids dish out. Every year dogs die because of the unreal expectations we as a society have.

Sadly I know all to well how stupid people are with there pets as I work in animal welfare and have done so for many many years but risking a child like that is just plain child abuse. Since having my own children and feeling so protective towards them I can't imagine risking there safety or even the life of my dogs as I'm sure my partner would kill them if they bit our kids.

Gee, I might go let my 9kg baby take a bone off my 50kg dog and see if my dog sees her as the leader. I will let you know what happens.................Joke.

[idigadog]

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.

I have lost count the number of times my dogs have been approached by unfamiliar children while they are staked out at races or demos, while they were eating. All the while, the parents stand back and encourage the children to 'pat the nice doggies'!!

No doubt the parents think I'm a downright utter biartch after I lose it with them. But seriously, it's just plain common sense, is it not?

We have a four year old child. Most days he helps me feed our dogs. He can put the bowls down, tell them to wait and then say 'O.K.' to signal them to eat. He then shuts the run door and moves onto the next. NEVER will he be allowed to do this unsupervised (well, maybe when he's close to being a teenager and it might be his job ) and NEVER will I allow him to pat the dogs or put his hand into their bowl while they are eating. That is my job, as pack leader, not my 4 year olds!

I let all of the dogs out of their runs BEFORE Caleb is allowed to go back in and collect their empty bowls. Although I know in my heart of hearts that they would never do anything to him, it is never worth the risk. I would never forgive myself and I imagine that the parents of this poor little girl are feeling devastated. Something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives

On a side note, we have friends over quite often who have dogs also. Their kids like to help me feed and they are very dog savvy. Funnily enough, the dogs will not eat if the other kids feed them. They wait for me to pick the bowl up, put it down again and then tell them "O.K.". Guess they know the deal!

[shyfig]

I find these replies very interesting.

My dogs are the lowest in the order of pack members in my family.

A dog I bred (Bullmastiff), who is now 5 years old has been brought up with his family(and he is a big dog) and the children have participated in feeding him right from when they picked him up at 8 weeks old.

The two children have taken food away from this dog and successfully placed it back in front of him while he was told to sit and wait. The two children have always been the higher in the pecking order.

I ask you.....Is that wrong???

The dam of this dog whom I still have with me has been part of our grand daughters life. Our grand daughter could take a ball or food from her mouth.

.....Is that wrong???

Where I board my dogs, one of the children who helps with feeding the dogs can safely(and I mean safely) place my dogs food bowls down without fear.

Is that wrong???

Am I doing or saing something wrong when bringing up my dogs or instructing my puppy people in the pecking order of their family pet.

My dogs can have their food taken away from them by my husband and myself at any stage. They get fed separately from each other as they always have been.

People bring dogs up in different ways.

My Bullmastiffs are food orientated NOT food aggressive.

Now is someone going to tell me I am doing it all wrong??

I think "participated" would be the key factor. Did any of your children feed your dogs by themselves with you not present?

I think as long as the "leader of the pack" is present supervising the process of children feeding dog... dog feels secure. Maybe it is different when the "Leader" goes out of sight or is not present with the child as appears to have happened in the Toddler's situation?

Of course the Pack leader was always present as in every situation I have outlined.

Including the boarding kennel owner. (My dogs respect her as well)

It is one of those requirements explained earlier.

Good old common sense!

Exactly!!

[shyfig]

and the resource guarding began at about 7 months.. he was fine till then.

That's interesting...my BC is 8mths old and started food and toy guarding at about 7 months also. Mainly with our male cat..... female cat can wander over and start nibbling his food and he doesn't like it but waits for me to come and move her. Same with toys. I've wondered if there can be territorial issues between males of different species. No problems with me or my older, supervised boys.

So sad he had a brain tumour and had to be PTS

[Greytmate]

and the resource guarding began at about 7 months.. he was fine till then.

That's interesting...my BC is 8mths old and started food and toy guarding at about 7 months also. Mainly with our male cat..... female cat can wander over and start nibbling his food and he doesn't like it but waits for me to come and move her. Same with toys. I've wondered if there can be territorial issues between males of different species. No problems with me or my older, supervised boys.

So sad he had a brain tumour and had to be PTS

Yes, I have seen dogs resource guard against different species. Territoriality is a different thing.

Keep your dogs separated from your cats physically when feeding. There is potential for a change in your situation, the signals are very subtle, and it could be dangerous.

[Bullbreedlover]

Poodlefan I agree with everything you have said.

Of course this could have been prevented and I can only imagine how badly this poor childs parents feel.

I just can not even imagine the dumbest person on earth thinking it is ok for a child to play with any dog that is eating.This is just such a sad thing and I hope the media have it wrong as usual.

As this thread and others on the forum have demonstrated, there are people who think encouraging a child to interfere with a dog's food reinforces the child's higher place in the pack order. Pity more people don't own and use crates for feeding times IMO.

This is a text book bite incident that will be played out in dozens of family homes this year. All lthe sadder because its easy to prevent and in sensationalising the incident, the media do nothing to assist.

As this thread and others on the forum have demonstrated, there are people who think allowing a child to interfere with a dog's food reinforces the child's higher place in the pack order.

IDIOTS.

If only people would use there brains. What happens when this idea fails. The child gets bitten. I have seen enough idiot owners at my work but have never heard such a stupid and risky thing to do to a child. Dogs do not see young children the way they see adults.

Sure enough the dog gets put to sleep or dumped at the pound.

Before I post again I would like to ask you both if your posts refer to me and what I have said?

[poodlefan]

Before I post again I would like to ask you both if your posts refer to me and what I have said?

Not directed at you personally Stonebridge, but a range of folk have posted about doing this in this thread and many others. You posted:

The two children have taken food away from this dog and successfully placed it back in front of him while he was told to sit and wait. The two children have always been the higher in the pecking order.

Not a practice I'd ever recommend. As I said, lower ranks in a pack hierarchy still defend food. The practice is no guarantee of pack status, especially if you are not present. Not sure that's a message that gets through to the kids though. I also posted about dangers of having a child generalise a behaviour they practice with the family dogs to others dogs - a real risk IMO.

Edited January 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Bullbreedlover]

Before I post again I would like to ask you both if your posts refer to me and what I have said?

Not directed at you personally Stonebridge, but a range of folk have posted about doing this in this thread and many others. You posted:

The two children have taken food away from this dog and successfully placed it back in front of him while he was told to sit and wait. The two children have always been the higher in the pecking order.

Not a practice I'd ever recommend. As I said, lower ranks in a pack hierarchy still defend food. The practice is no guarantee of pack status, especially if you are not present. Not sure that's a message that gets through to the kids though. I also posted about dangers of having a child generalise a behaviour they practice with the family dogs to others dogs - a real risk IMO.

No where did i say that the children were by themselves, just in case you were implying they were

It is not a practice I would recommend to each and every person either. Every family situation will be different. This was done under controlled circumstances and lets be honest, how can you comment like you did when you have no idea what those circumstances were. Not directed at me personally, but really, it was.

The two young children in this household are above the dog in pecking order and they always have been. These children can, in their own property sit, down and wait command this dog. If you dont believe me thats fine. I dont care. The feed issue here is not the only circumstance that develops a pecking order.

Holy heck I was feeding my parents dogs when I was 5. I was showing them at 8 years old.

I know there are totally irresponsible owners out there who simply do not have a clue.

But if you think I, my puppy owner and the rest of my family are irresponsible then I would like to suggest that you think again

[Bullbreedlover]

Shall now wait for tobie to answer!

[poodlefan]

Before I post again I would like to ask you both if your posts refer to me and what I have said?

Not directed at you personally Stonebridge, but a range of folk have posted about doing this in this thread and many others. You posted:

The two children have taken food away from this dog and successfully placed it back in front of him while he was told to sit and wait. The two children have always been the higher in the pecking order.

Not a practice I'd ever recommend. As I said, lower ranks in a pack hierarchy still defend food. The practice is no guarantee of pack status, especially if you are not present. Not sure that's a message that gets through to the kids though. I also posted about dangers of having a child generalise a behaviour they practice with the family dogs to others dogs - a real risk IMO.

No where did i say that the children were by themselves, just in case you were implying they were

It is not a practice I would recommend to each and every person either. Every family situation will be different. This was done under controlled circumstances and lets be honest, how can you comment like you did when you have no idea what those circumstances were.

Not directed at me personally, but really, it was.But if you think I, my puppy owner and the rest of my family are irresponsible then I would like to suggest that you think again

If that's how you choose to take my opinion Stonebridge, there's bugger all I can do about it. I still would never recommend the practice.