Huskies Maul Dog Owner's Jack Russell To Death In Savage Attack

[Cosmolo]

While i agree with that statement in theory- people may not be aware their dog will behave that way as they may have never seen such behaviour when they are with the dogs- dogs behave differently when thrust into a situation they have never been in- unaccompanied.

Regardless- if dogs were contained, socialised and trained appropriately everyone would be safer.

[Diva]

Read the rest of my post guys- i didn't say dogs don't distinguish, i said they don't naturally distinguish and such differentiating is a result of socialisation and training.

Diva don't forget, most of the dogs i know are not well socialised and trained- i always have to keep this in mind when i make statements so you are right, its probably not rare, its just that many of the dogs i see can't do it. Critical period socialisation done well means amazing distinctions can be made by high prey drive dogs- but many dogs don't have this.

I understood your whole point, I just had trouble with the quote function so I couldn't single out the bit I wanted to specifically respond to - which was the parts that made such discrimination sound inherently unusual.

A lot of people seem to think that prey driven dogs simply have no capacity to discriminate between triggers, it would have made some breeds pretty useless for their chosen tasks if that were the case.

I think that if people are going to own high-prey drive dogs in the 'burbs - and they tend to include the breeds I love - teaching some of this discrimination is a responsibility as much as a good fence is. I believe that some good greyhound rescues won't place as a pet a grey that is too prey-driven on small dogs, it must be a heart-breaking decision some times, but it's the right one.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Diva

[geo]

A little off topic but does anyone on this thread feel that prey drive makes up an important part of a dogs personality? ie do you think that they are more effectionate, loyal, playful etc.. because of "drive". Someone mentioned staffies on another thread always giving 110% whether that be play, effection or anxiety!

So if anyone has had experience with all sorts what do you think?

[Danielle]

Geo - Please dont assume to know me or my knowledge of dogs. I work with dogs for a living. Yes, I do own small dogs, but I also own two very large ones. Your statements are assumptive and incorrect.

My ACD bitch can and always has been able to distinguish between prey items and non prey items. My Afghan hound, Rottweilers, and mastiffs over the years have also been the same. Naturally, not through training.

So please answer me this. If these dogs were to get out again and kill another dog should they be pts then? How far is too far in your rationale?

Also, if you are saying dogs cannot naturally distinguish between prey and not, then why aren't all dogs DA? Why aren't all dogs HA? By your very own reasoning, every single dog is a threat to each other, kids and adults alike.

A client of mines dog was killed at nudgee beach two years ago by a dog that had killed before. I have witnessed this before and stand by my opinion that once a dog has killed it will kill again and should be pts. Housing is besides the point, there will always be a risk of that animal getting out again so we need not take risks with such dogs.

This response is laughable.

If a dog is defending itself of course it's not at fault! Do you really think the huskies were defending themselves against an onleash jrt? Wow.

These dogs were not going on instinct, this jrt was not a prey item. Humans aren't prey items either and they can distinguish between the two. You don't see dogs going round hunting humans as prey. These dogs knew what they were doing.

Melodrama aside, they need destroying and that is what will happen thank goodness.

These dogs killed another dog! How many chances do they deserve? They didn't just bite it or rush it, they ripped it apart!

Far out. So what if they get out again and kill another dog? What then? Blame the owners again and let the dogs off for a second time? They killed this dog guys, they have proven that they are dangerous, I hope they are both put down, and not because they deserve it, purely to get them out of the community, we cannot have dogs like these roaming our suburban streets.

Sorry but once a dog KILLS another dog it needs destroying. And all this crap about seeing the jrt as a prey item...come on, give me a break, it was a dog, they knew it was a dog, but they still killed it. I highly doubt it that they mistook it for a bunny, dogs are not stupid, they knew what they were doing. They ripped it out if that womans hands. This also shows what little regard they have for humans, to ignore this ladies screams and to take her dog out of her arms and kill it. Dogs like that go on to do far worse things.

OMG! what if my dogs were attacked then killed said attacker? do they need to be PTS? No dogs aren't stupid, but they act on instinct, regard for humans had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Just read Cosmolos comments they really sum it all up, without all the melodrama.

No I don't. But i quote,"Sorry but once a dog KILLS another dog it needs destroying". So i that is why i replied the way i did.

Laughable i think not, your judgement is clearly clouded by the fact you either have a small dog (and feel threatened), or cannot comprehend dogs behavior by the simple facts you've learned nothing from the very reasonable and educated comments that have been placed on here.

You seriously think those dogs are cold calculated killers? 'cause if you do you still haven't learnt a thing! and when you do learn something you can better protect your dog as well.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Danielle

[Cosmolo]

Danielle- you need to re-read my post. Nobody has said dogs can't learn to discriminate. To answer your questions though as to why all dogs aren't HA/ DA- Genetics play a part and critical period (6-16 weeks) SOCIALISATION is key.

I completely agree Diva- unfortunately prey drive tends not to be discussed a great deal in many areas so people don't know they need to teach discrimination let alone how.

[abed]

Given that other dogs roaming and escaping yards etc is beyond a dog walkers control and these nasty incidents will continue to occur from time to time, perhaps it's an idea to choose a breed less vulnerable to a fatal attack. Prey driven dogs triggered by small dogs, don't react like that to dogs of similar size minimising the potential of loosing a pet.

This is not a sensible suggestion at all. This type of thinking creates an us and them mentality between owners of large and small dogs.

It's as bad as someone suggesting that eveyone own small dogs as they are unable to cause as much damage.

If you are prepared to acknowledge that your little dog can be easily killed in these situations and accept the loss of a pet as a result then my suggestion may not be sensible I agree. However, if you prefer your dog not to be killed and have a fighting chance if faced with a situation like this, a bigger dog makes a lot of sence in risk management, in fact, a bigger dog will often prevent a like situation occurring in the first place as they don't present the prey trigger that a small dog does.

The flip side of your argument is that everyone should own little dogs so that the potential to kill another dog is not there.

I don't have a little dog, I have two very large dogs (so I'm not taking it as a personal affront), I just think it's a stupid suggestion. If peopole want little dogs they should be able to have them and not feel at risk.

The issue at hand is containment, not whether people should or shouldn't have certain types or sizes of dogs.

Of course people should be able to own and walk little dogs, but the question is, how do these little dog owners ensure big dogs dangerous theirs are kept contained and controlled effectively and the answer to that is: Good luck when the situation is completely beyond their control so it boils down to two alternatives. Get another small dog that could suffer the same fate, or get a bigger one that has a better chance of survival in the same situation..........can't see what is stupid about that idea???

[Diva]

While i agree with that statement in theory- people may not be aware their dog will behave that way as they may have never seen such behaviour when they are with the dogs- dogs behave differently when thrust into a situation they have never been in- unaccompanied.

Regardless- if dogs were contained, socialised and trained appropriately everyone would be safer.

True. Although I'd really hope that the people who place breeds known for a high prey drive, be they breeders, rescues, pet stores or bybs, explain what they are potentially capable of, and that also people who select a specific breed do their own research. Pipe dream, I know.

Edit: my system is taking so long to post today it's like being on a phone call with a relay delay, sorry if that makes it confusing.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Diva

[Danielle]

Danielle- you need to re-read my post. Nobody has said dogs can't learn to discriminate. To answer your questions though as to why all dogs aren't HA/ DA- Genetics play a part and critical period (6-16 weeks) SOCIALISATION is key.

I completely agree Diva- unfortunately prey drive tends not to be discussed a great deal in many areas so people don't know they need to teach discrimination let alone how.

Cosmolo I see what you are saying but are you serious when you say you hardly come across dogs in your line of work who have yet to learn to discriminate between what is prey and what is not?

You must work exclusively with extreme cases. Most dogs I know do not behave in such a way and a lot do require training. It's not just trained dogs who can tell what's food and what's not. A lot of dogs know this naturally.

I'd still like to hear geos answer to my original question though. I've only asked it a few times, yet to get a reply to that one.

[Golden Rules]

Declare the dogs dangerous and require compliance to ensure the public is safe.

Well compliance would also be containing your dogs in the first place, and it seems the owner's didn't comply (yes I did read some councilmen had broken the fence) ..... so how many chances do you give the owner and at what risk to the community?

In this instance, those two dogs together would be a worry. What if they are out walking on lead with their owner and they decide to chase a cat or dog? They may be the most friendly placid loving animals at home but they have proven that when out together, it's a different story.

[abed]

'huski' date='9th Jan 2011 - 11:58 PM' post='5075174']

I am lucky because of the way my dog has been raised he doesn't see cats as prey items - we've had no problem introducing two kittens to our household, and he's lived in harmony with cats his whole life.

He also lives with a 5kg chihuahua cross and definitely doesn't see her as a prey item.

But he's killed numerous bats, possums, rats and mice that have entered our yard over the years.

This is bigger than being about the two dogs that killed the JRT. It is clear just from reading the posts in this thread how little people understand about prey drive and how prey drive works. That in itself is so dangerous it's scary.

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

[Aidan3]

'huski' date='9th Jan 2011 - 11:58 PM' post='5075174']But he's killed numerous bats, possums, rats and mice that have entered our yard over the years.

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

My working line GSD has never killed anything. What advice did Huski give?

[poodlefan]

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

A good one should surely have had its prey drive modified into herding instinct?

Maybe you should consider that dogs bred to hunt do have real prey drive Abed. You know, sighthounds, scent hounds etc?? ;) Love to see some of the 'working dog' folk trying to train a sighthound.. or maybe not.

Edited January 10, 2011 by poodlefan

[Diva]

Maybe you should consider that dogs bred to hunt do have real prey drive Abed. You know, sighthounds, scent hounds etc??

.....and Huskies, which from what I understand of them were traditionally expected to support themselves for much of the year by what they hunted. No prey drive, dead and out-of-the-gene-pool Husky.

Of course I don't know what prey drive Huski's particular dog has.

[abed]

'huski' date='9th Jan 2011 - 11:58 PM' post='5075174']But he's killed numerous bats, possums, rats and mice that have entered our yard over the years.

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

My working line GSD has never killed anything. What advice did Huski give?

Being a responsible dog owner and trainer Aidan, I would expect nothing less from your dogs, good work

[poodlefan]

'huski' date='9th Jan 2011 - 11:58 PM' post='5075174']But he's killed numerous bats, possums, rats and mice that have entered our yard over the years.

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

My working line GSD has never killed anything. What advice did Huski give?

Being a responsible dog owner and trainer Aidan, I would expect nothing less from your dogs, good work

Exactly how do you train a dog that's not under handler control NOT to kill prey Abed?

[abed]

'huski' date='9th Jan 2011 - 11:58 PM' post='5075174']But he's killed numerous bats, possums, rats and mice that have entered our yard over the years.

I say this respectfully Huski, but how about you gain some experience raising a dog with real prey drive like a working line GSD or Belgian Malinois before you become over confident in your drive containment process.

My working line GSD has never killed anything. What advice did Huski give?

Being a responsible dog owner and trainer Aidan, I would expect nothing less from your dogs, good work

Exactly how do you train a dog that's not under handler control NOT to kill prey Abed?

You don't have them not under handler control Poodlefan, it's called responsible ownership.........something the owner missed in concept relating to this thread.

[poodlefan]

You don't have them not under handler control Poodlefan, it's called responsible ownership.........something the owner missed in concept relating to this thread.

Well then I fail to grasp why you're congratulating Aidan for his responsible ownership of a dog that does't kill things in the back yard while castigating Huski for a dog that does. Where's the handler control for an unattended, unsupervised dog that kills things while secured on your property?

I too have dogs that kills rodents and birds in the back yard when unsupervised by me. Does this make me an irresponsible owner?

Edited January 10, 2011 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

Maybe i need to be more detailed- 9.5 out of 10 of the problem dogs i see (that have moderate- high prey drive) know that humans are not prey. However, of those 10 problem dogs, 4 can't make the distinction with small dogs and 8 can't distinguish between small prey- cats, possums, rabbits- ie- if they hunt one, they hunt them all. So while that last group of dogs can distinguish with some things (because they aren't hunting people) they haven't had the necesary socialisation and training to make other distinctions beyond that.

Ultimately, dogs are capable of amazing distinguishing capabilities- but only if they are socialised and trained early and thats the point.

Whether these dogs in question are euthanased is a matter for council to decide. But the illusion that killing these dogs will somehow make society safer is just that- an illusion. It won't prevent the next attack or the one after that or the one after that. It stops these dogs from doing anything- but it does not stop the owners from getting more and potentially making the same mistakes- knowingly OR unknowingly. It does not help to educate other dog owners with similar dogs who could be risky. It does not emphasise the importance of containment- because those are nasty dogs, not like Bobby next door or my Fido. And it does not open people's minds to the capabilities of the dog- people simply breathe a sigh of relief because THOSE nasty dogs are dead. How very beneficial.

[Cosmolo]

Oh and Diva- i long for your pipe dream too..

[abed]

You don't have them not under handler control Poodlefan, it's called responsible ownership.........something the owner missed in concept relating to this thread.

Well then I fail to grasp why you're congratulating Aidan for his responsible ownership of a dog that does't kill things in the back yard while castigating Huski for a dog that does. Where's the handler control for an unattended, unsupervised dog that kills things while secured on your property?

I too have dogs that kills rodents and birds in the back yard when unsupervised by me. Does this make me an irresponsible owner?

Were are not talking rodents in the backyard, we are talking killing other dogs...............or have I missed the thread topic killing rodents in the back yard is not necessarily a result of prey drive and can be a territorial action. Prey drive alone is not necessarily the cause of attacks on smaller dogs either with often dominance and social aggression being the trigger to chase and kill and the genetics of the dog plays a large part in the overall behaviour.