stelz Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Hi everyone, I've browsed around www a fair bit and this forum for a few hours and need to ask for some advice. By way of introduction, we have been dog people all our lives with our last dog being a Border Collie (beautiful girl) which got to the end of her time nearly 2 years ago. Here is the situation. We have just purchased a pair of 3-4 month old female pure bred Border Collie puppies from the local pound. It looks like they are from the same litter and we can only guess it was a private first time breeder that has let 2 of the pups go (for whatever reason). They appear to be in good physical shape and good temperament and we just had to have them (had been thinking for some time on having 2 dogs) and they appear to fine. They seem to have been kept together. The real question is how to set things up when we pick them up on 12/1 after they go through the necessary process at the pound / vet. We've been reading through the dogstardaily material and will read thoroughly the books there soon. First thought was to arrange their sleeping area (raised bed style) outside underneath our pergola and give them free access to the backyard at night (it is very safe). During the day we would go through the indoor training by bringing beds inside to a room, give Kong filled with food + water bowl and take outside to grass area hourly for toilet training. I know we have made a bit commitment here, so more experienced advice would be gladly received. We are a bit worried that restricting their movements in small pen (or pens?) outside could be too similar to what bad experiences they may have received at the pound and with their owner that abandoned them and be unnecessary or even harmful for their anxiety Thank you in advance, Stelz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallyandtex Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Hi There! It's great you have decided to raise some pups from the shelter. I am SURE that you have done your homework! Just thought you might REALLY think it over if they are siblings and you have not brought them home yet (or there is a trial period). There is alot of good advice from the members on this forum about 2 puppies, and it depends on the temperaments of the dogs. Don't forget though, that pups will always be sought after, esp with a popular breed, so even if you took 1, the other would find a great home too! In my experience it's much better to have an older dog with the pup if you want 2. Theres' some great articles you might read over! Good Luck! http://www.cleardogtraining.com.au/index.p...q&Itemid=15 http://www.cleardogtraining.com/index.php?...or-one&cati Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 The biggest thing when you get two dogs who may (or may not) have been together since they were pups, is they will have more than likely bonded to themselves rather than their humans. I know of some breeders up here (and not first time ones either) who advertise and will only sell two pups from the same litter if the family works full time or does not have another dog in the household. Personally I think this is wrong. Given the right start, a singular puppy is better. Two puppies = double trouble and a new owner may not have the experience and time to give to two puppies at the same time. As a breeder, I do not recommend taking two pups at the same time UNLESS you are very experienced and have the time and dedication to really put into INDIVIDUAL training. With beds and bedding, it really is a personal thing. Mine generally do not like the hammock style beds and if given the preference, will lie UNDER it rather than on top of it. So it could be an expense that they are not going to use. As far as outside/inside. I prefer to lock up my animals at night. For one it stops them chasing cane toads or other things that go bump in the night and stops them barking or digging. Also as far as toys etc go, Kongs are great, but do not go overboard until you get them home. Being older dogs, they may not take to them as quickly. Maybe get one and see how it goes. If they take to it, then get more. The biggest thing when you get these dogs home is set your routine. Get them used to you and your place. Give them a week before any real big upsets or changes to their routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelz Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 Thank you both for your wise / experienced and honest advice - I appreciate it greatly and am not too proud to make changes to our decisions, should we need to. We do want 2 dogs and yes the idea of leaving one of these beautiful dogs behind to probably have a needle was too much and we bailed them both out on the spot without adequately researching the differences between raising one pup and 2 simultaneously. That decision is made now so we have to deal with what is ahead as best we can and one option in that could be to rehome one of the dogs to a GOOD home. We have raised one BC pup before, so understand what was involved in that. Raising 2 properly is what we need to get ready for, so we will be focused on that for the next little while at least. We've been reading the dogstardaily material by Ian Dunbar and all that seems to make good sense. We have a trainer / coach lined up too so should be well educated and that will leave us to make sure we give it the right time to train them and shape them to be the dogs they can potentially be. We know it will be an investment (timewise). I am very interested in the comments that indicate we should keep them seperated a lot so they become dependent (bond with) on us rather than each other. I had understood that this was required for the training time to allow good focus, but I guess it is much much more than that (sleeping eating etc...) It is all looking like they will need seperate pens (would adjoining be OK ?) and seperate crates. Thanks heaps, Stelz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Stelz, The bonding between the two if they have been together since pups, would already be strong. At this point, be aware of it. You won't know what it is like until you get them home. Not knowing these dogs history is the biggest thing. They could have been well loved and cared for, and there was a change in circumstance, or they could have been left outside dogs and had minimal care. At some point in time, you need to be able to train/walk them separately at various times. If you have a partner, you go one way round the block and they go the other and meet in the middle for example. If you train them together, the focus will be on the other dog/person and not you. Once they are used to be trained and you get focus, then you can introduce them back to training together later on. Definitely separate crates. Feed them in their own crates. That way you will know there will be no food squabbles. The crates can be be side by side so they can see each other. I would not suggest of separating them all the time. You need them to be comfortable to stay alone somewhere if you have to take the other dog out for any reason (Eg: Vet) As for runs etc.. that is up to you and you situation. They can run together as they are probably used to this. You want to keep some things as "normal" as you can but at the same time, establish your own routine. Dogs this age, end up in the pound for a reason.. The reason you are given is not always the true reason. All I am saying here, is make sure they are not escape artists or problem barkers (if you have sensitive neighbours). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelz Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 Thanks again Mystigview We are getting a bit clearer on the strategies we will adopt for the first couple of weeks, namely: 1. Set up there own play pen spaces which are adjoining under our large outdoor pergola with their crate (bed), water supply, toilet (grass strip) and their own hollow toys which will contain their food for the day (except for rewards). They will spend their un supervised time in these areas, including night time sleeping. This arrangement will allow them to learn that the chew toys are good and fun as opposed to other backyard or house behaviour. With them in the same area, but not together, their food is managed seperately and they are not playing with each other (bonding too much), but they are still close to each other for comfort to prevent anxiety. 2. Supervised time will be in a few categories: a) In the house in crate (with kongs) and brought out for toilet. Crates could be near each other. We'd bring them out seperately for toilet training and reward, play, walk etc... following success seperately. After they have both had this time, they could have some together time playing before going back through the routine. b) In the house supervised, but not in crate (after toilet success) just being with us while we watch TV etc... before going back into crate c) General training seperately either inside or outside d) Playing seperately with our family d) Playing together with our family As time goes on and they learn what is expected, their freedoms outside and inside grow in line with what they have demonstrated they can handle until ultimately they can be in the house and outside roaming free. I guess at this point their crates will be their den or "kennel" which will give them their seperate time. So if this is basically right, I need to get 2 crates and 2 play pen fencing equipment sorted out. Does this sound right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Sounds good. Are you going to take them to dog school? You might need to think about how to do that with 2 pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Um... A four-5 month BC puppy is fairly well sized. Those play pens that are commonly available will not be strong enough or high enough to contain the animals. They are designed for baby puppies and smaller animals. Their construction, while metal is still rather flimsy. Personally I think you would be wasting your money on those. I have to duck to work now, but will put a better reply in later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I wouldn't get both of them unless you can seperate them and make sure they're not together more than they're with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallyandtex Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Sounds good. Are you going to take them to dog school? You might need to think about how to do that with 2 pups. Please don't make the misatke of taking them to puppy school together. You might be better with some dog mesh than those play pens for larger older pups. More work but peace of mind. You could have them side by side, but if they can see each other thay will probably pine for each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Hi ya, No real words of wisdom here, I'm not a breeder! But I do have a 4.5 month old Border Collie pup and can vouch that both our play pens (professional and bunnings special) do not hold him any longer. He's pretty big now, probably 11-12kgs, and has long legs, he can jump up onto my outside dining table when he wants to look into my bedroom window! "C'mon Mum, where's breakfast?" LOL Naughty boy! I recommend Nutro Large Breed puppy food, you can buy it in 15kg bags as you go through it pretty quickly. My Dash looks fantastic on it, and has lost the skinny look he had on the old stuff he was eating. Good luck with your new additions. Christie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogs4Fun Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I know you feel committed, but please sit down, take a deep breath and think about this. Two teenage pups that have a questionable socilisation history and are likely to be highly bonded to each other are going to be very hard work. I know a lot of very good dog people who would be very reluctant to take this one. Please reconsider getting just one pup now, putting in the work, rearing to a nice adult and later getting a second pup (or adult) to complete you plans of two dogs. If you take you name off one of the pups, it has a chance of finding a nice home itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I know you feel committed, but please sit down, take a deep breath and think about this.Two teenage pups that have a questionable socilisation history and are likely to be highly bonded to each other are going to be very hard work. I know a lot of very good dog people who would be very reluctant to take this one. Please reconsider getting just one pup now, putting in the work, rearing to a nice adult and later getting a second pup (or adult) to complete you plans of two dogs. If you take you name off one of the pups, it has a chance of finding a nice home itself. I really second this. Raising two pups from the same litter that have had the right start to life is hard enough without taking on two pups from questionable backgrounds. Even from 8 weeks on, those pups have bonded together and it is very hard to socialise and get them bonded to the two legged family rather than themselves. Ask any other breeder here who has ran on two pups for showing etc and they will tell you how hard it is. And they have raised these pups properly from birth!! Really. Slow down. Your action plan is too complicated. While I commend you for making such an action plan, you are implementing things that may not suit these pups once they arrive home. They are older pups that have had a routine. You want to start a new simple routine. They need to get used to you and your family first. If one pup is left, it will find a loving family in no time at all. Despite it being in a pound, many people who want a pup from the pound still are vain in a way and like the cute or pretty dog or something that looks "purebred". They are also generally looking in the pound for a specific breed type in mind, not necessarily wanting to pick the first "stray" they see. Think with your head, not your emotions. It is clear you want to do the best thing for these animals. The best thing could be to take on one pup and give it ALL of your attention, not half. Let someone else give the other pup ALL of their attention. That is much better for the animals concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) I know you feel committed, but please sit down, take a deep breath and think about this.Two teenage pups that have a questionable socilisation history and are likely to be highly bonded to each other are going to be very hard work. I know a lot of very good dog people who would be very reluctant to take this one. Please reconsider getting just one pup now, putting in the work, rearing to a nice adult and later getting a second pup (or adult) to complete you plans of two dogs. If you take you name off one of the pups, it has a chance of finding a nice home itself. x2 Added, not only will you need to ensure these pups become less reliant upon one another for stimulation, games, company, security etc, but also do not replace that with yourselves. By this I mean that Yes, it is super important that these pups become strongly bonded with their human pack members, more so than each other when and where possible, but IMHO it is even more important that each pup learns to be comfortable and confident in it's own company. This calm self assured, confident behavior is the very first thing I teach all puppies I bring into my home. It is difficult enough to teach this to one puppy without having 2 litter siblings in the one home, especially as adolescents. It does sound like you are really switched on and putting in lots of research and making all efforts to plan well, and I do commend you for this, however, I would still be looking into setting up your crates and beds in separate areas or rooms even. If there is one thing that is likely to drive me nuts with any dogs is not being able to separate them from each other at any time I wish to. So, I go all out every day to do as much as I can with my dogs "separately". If you go ahead with this adoption, please do so because you are really keen to take on this massive work load and challenge and not because you can't bear to not save the dogs. You need to be happy also. Edited January 5, 2011 by dyzney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallyandtex Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 x infinity Agree, agree! Are you getting the hints yet? We are all concerned about this as it is a HUGE demand. Rememebr, as I said, if you leave one of the pups, they won't be "getting a needle" if it's a rescue, and you leave the pup still looking cute for the next customer, rather than try to rehome one of them in adolescence. It will be good for a good few months, not easy but when they hit 8-9 months the trouble will really start! Plus, what sex are they? I have read people on these forums say Female/Female can be real trouble . Even fight to the death (hard to imagine when they are cute pups). Being the same age they never knows whose boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Just wanted to wish you luck with whatever you decide. It's always difficult to make a decision based on internet viewpoints - only you know what's suitable for your personal circumstances and it's great that you're arming yourself with as much information as possible. You're giving much more thought to dog ownership than many other 'average' dog owners probably do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I will offer a differing view. I regularly run 2 puppies on from the same litter and have never had an issue. They are kennelled together during the day but sleep separately at night. The most important thing is to do things with each puppy as an individual rather than a pair. I make sure they do training classes separately and have outings without the other puppy to lean on. I love that they are together during the day and have each other to play with and I have never had any issues at all with them not bonding with me. I do however think you should buy a sizable run for the two of them during the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelz Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Thank you all very very much for offering your thoughts and contributing to our decision making. We have enlisted the services of the experts, a trainer, and will work through the issues with them. There is a lot of common advice from you and our trainer and we will try to piece together a strategy. We will be picking the dogs up on 12th Jan and be taking care of them for a while irrespective of if we make the decision to rehome one of them. We aim to make that decision asap and get on with things. Thanks again - we will let you know what we decide and how things go Stelz Edited January 5, 2011 by stelz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chellz Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I think you are doing the right thing.. dont listen to peoples negative comments, she didnt ask if she should have two pups or not she wanted advice on our to train and bring up this pups in the best way she can.. shame on you really she is doing the right thing asking for your kind advice.. seriously even if she just took the one pup, there still might not have sound another owner in time then the pup would of being dead.. maybe the pups only had one more day to live who knows.. they are all what if's which wont solve anything.. I would just make sure they get alone time as well as one on one time.. pretty obvious stuff, just go with your instinct.. I think its great that they get to grow up together.. i think having an older dog and a pup can have disavantages too.. the fact that the older one could be more terrtioral and create problems of them not getting along.. They all have pro's and con's so just work with rasing these beautiful new pups you have.. sorry i couldnt be more helpful and I know everyone has a right to their own opinion but there is a right way and a wrong way and there was no need considering the OP did not ask for the advice of if she should raise one or two pups.. goodluck with everything.. and keep us updated Edited January 10, 2011 by chellz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShesaLikeableBiBear Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have kept two puppies from three litters, now aged 10, 2 and 7 months, and have not had any issues. They have the run of the house and garden when we are at home and the youngest two are crated at night in the living room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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