shortstep Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) Hi, Can anyone explain seal and the inheritance of the coat colour seal. Is it a simple recessive, incomplete dominance or ?? It is affecting a black base colour? Does it affect ee red or chocolate, sable or brindle? How to tell the difference between seal and some of the forms of sable? Any thing else to help me understand this coat colour. Thanks heaps. Edited January 1, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 This link may help http://www.tenset.co.uk/doggen/indexus.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 This link may helphttp://www.tenset.co.uk/doggen/indexus.html Thanks, Sorry but I am confused, I did not find (nor can Google find) the word seal on that page. Can you point out which part of the information would apply to Seals? Or are you meaning I need to buy the breeding program they are selling to find out about the colour seal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Seal has not been identified yet. Sheila Schmutz had a look at it when she did the dna study of Italian Greyhounds. Looks like they have to have at least one copy of K black. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/IGcolor.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Seal has not been identified yet.Sheila Schmutz had a look at it when she did the dna study of Italian Greyhounds. Looks like they have to have at least one copy of K black. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/IGcolor.html Yes I read that last night. The colour is found in several breeds and is very common in some breeds. However I can not seem to find anything that tells me how it breeds. The dog I was looking at had a black parent and an ee red parent (however I suppose it might be possible the ee was really a clear sable?) On web site said it was related to sable, as they had only found it when sables were in the mix of parents (but how big a survey this was..who knows). However, when I first saw the seal dog, sable was what came to mind. So maybe what this person is calling Seal is in fact some sort of sable and not the Seal found in the sight hounds and bull/terrier breeds? That is why I would like to hear from breeders/owners of breeds that carry this colour. I am sure they would have information on how it breeds, would be very interested in how it related to crosses with other colours, even if antidotal. Many of the bull and some of the terrrier breeds, sight hounds and collie breeds seem to have this colour, I am sure there are other breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Can you tell the difference between a heavy sable and a seal? Perhaps in some breeds seal is infact a AyAt dog with heavy black sabling, while in other breeds it's an incomplete covering of K black over an AyA? dog. In both cases this is possible. If the mother really is ee (born without a single black hair) then it's possible she is AyA? as well, if she is just a clear Ay, then again it's possible - for both instances. So you might want to name your breed or post in that breeds thread to get an answer on what "seal" is in your breed. Do seal dogs have black offspring to fawn/sable/black&tan partners? If so, then it's incomplete covering of K black over the Ay. If not, then it's likely just a heavy sable. Edited January 2, 2011 by Lowenhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Can you tell the difference between a heavy sable and a seal? Perhaps in some breeds seal is infact a AyAt dog with heavy black sabling, while in other breeds it's an incomplete covering of K black over an AyA? dog. In both cases this is possible. If the mother really is ee (born without a single black hair) then it's possible she is AyA? as well, if she is just a clear Ay, then again it's possible - for both instances. So you might want to name your breed or post in that breeds thread to get an answer on what "seal" is in your breed. Do seal dogs have black offspring to fawn/sable/black&tan partners? If so, then it's incomplete covering of K black over the Ay. If not, then it's likely just a heavy sable. Exactly, that is what I am trying to get a bit of understanding on. It is not any breed in particular, it is just trying to understand the colour a little better. It does seem to happen in a fair number of breeds and is even popular in some breeds. I have just not been able to gather any information on how it breeds forwards or otherwise. One difference I think I can see in the seal vs a sable is the seal almost has a bay horse effect. Body basicly brown with increasing black down towards the bottom of the legs, tail and the face (face could be a mask gene however) but certainly the leg colouration does look different to sables, atleast in my limited experience. Now heavy sable I am not sure, I think of ger sheps, with a very heavy black overlay, but I do not think of brown hair on the body, more a cream or tan undercoat, or even cream or tan makings as in a tri giving the opposit effect as a seal. Is that right? Edited to add, I am not even sure that seal actually has incresing black, it might be just increasing darkness of pigment but not black?? Where sable would have black?? Edited January 2, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2psinapod Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 There's an extensive look at colour genetics here too. http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/colorgen.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 What breed are you talking about Shortstep? In border's ee-red is a masking gene, so it will hide what is genetically underneath. So you will not see seal, sable, merle, tri-colour in a dog expressing the ee-red gene. The only way to know is to DNA colour test it. Like all colours, it is a recessive gene meaning both parents have to carry it. As for seal/sable. Well the agouti gene is affecting the black within the coat. There have been a few sables here in Australia. JulesP has a sable and for a description is based in a shades of red/yellow, whereas the one I bred two years ago is a different colour shaded sable much darker and quite vivid in colour. In border collies, both colours are not recognised in the ANKC breed standard. Sometimes seal can be classed here as a "dirty black". This is Myf: She is from two black/white parents. Myf's mother: Who we now think is "seal" (It should be noted you do not see these stripes when she is in full coat. It is only she has been clipped post puppy you can see them) Here is another colour that shows the "seal": http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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