Being The Leader

[Aidan3]

Now, often the dog will sit on the 'NO" command to avoid the correction. If he didn't hear the sit command intitially, why did he sit on the no, why didn't he drop, shake hands, or offer another known behaviour???

There might be a number of reasons that don't rely in anthropomorphic interpretations. Maybe he has learned to 'sit' in response to correction, but the "no" is a cue? This is the avoidance learning equivalent of having to have food in your hand.

The learning process can only rarely be illuminated with short bites of behaviour like this. We don't know what has happened before, or what comes next either.

[Aidan3]

What are some strategies others use when running multiple dogs together in managing them and any possible conflicts?

Being able to go to a crate or mat immediately, without hesitation, and learning that waiting there brings good things (food, attention, getting leashed up for a walk, meeting the visitors etc).

Long downs are great, you can use a tether for these which makes thing much easier. Take a step away, if dog is still down, go back and reward with attention. Take two steps away etc etc If dog breaks at some point, ignore for a few seconds, then resume the exercise at "one step" again (as if to say "you seem confused, let me explain that again from the beginning").

As Sue Alexander describes it "I shouldn't be able to TRICK my dogs into getting up during this exercise". I can vaccuum around my GSD while she is in a long down.

[JulesP]

But anyway, this is COMPLETELY off track, so back to the topic at hand. What are some strategies others use when running multiple dogs together in managing them and any possible conflicts?

Minor squabbles I usually let go. I think it is important to let the dogs sort things out to a certain degree. If the pup is being obnoxious and one of the older ones tells her off that is cool with me. (Disclaimer - none of my dogs have actually bitten another dog so this is not likely to get dangerous).

I supervise meal times. I usually feed bones that can be eaten quickly so I can hang around and watch all is ok. I normally feed the bones out in a certain order but can feed out of order with no apparent angst.

I have one dog that resource guards me. That takes a bit of control if I am sitting out and the other dogs want pats. But she isn't being too bad about it. Verbal control is all that is needed.

I think more then having strategies in place for me it is about the the initial and general reinforcement that I am in charge and that they are to do what I say. And being consistent with that. (Unfortunately not working on the cats and I need an ecollar for those little bastards!)

I do think that if I introduced an older dog to the household and it looked like they weren't going to get on that I would send the new dog back. I would also hesitate in getting an older dog because of how my older girl is. A few people questioned me getting a pup with her.

[Miranda]

What are some strategies others use when running multiple dogs together in managing them and any possible conflicts?

I have crates for each dog and all dogs are fed separately, when they're finished the bowls are removed, washed and put away. I also feed bones and pigs ears in their crates. I never allow the dogs to hang around when I'm preparing food and I don't leave any toys lying around in the yard. My dogs are all exercised and trained separately every day. Regular exercise is an extremely important part of my dog management program, the old saying 'a tired dog is a good dog' is very, very true. I am also extremely vigilant when the girls are coming into season.

I practice NILIF and have done TOT with all my dogs, I have found this exercise to be invaluable, especially in the more food orientated dogs (thank you Steve ).

If I ever have two dogs that cannot be trusted together I separate them permanently, experience had taught me that this is the easiest solution for my particular situation. I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with the hassle of two dogs that don't get on.

[MissMaddy]

Please tell me we're not going to have a show vs working line debate again.

No other correction actually worked for my girl initially where other dogs were concerned (or the 2 cats that used to be next door who teased her), you could give her a pretty strong correction and she'd act like you were an annoying fly, if you even got that much acknolwedgement when she really went into drive. Had I of put the e-collar on her and gone straight to high level distraction, she would have been somewhere up around 50-70 (which is why I did so much work with lower level distractions). Now she knows that by responding to the lower level stim, that it doesn't go any higher (which she DID need the first time we moved onto high distraction as there wasn't enough medium distraction for her- I did need to turn it up once to around 70 when she unexpectedly saw the next door neighbours cat she hated).

Thank goodness I found dol when I did, as well as some decent trainers and behaviourists (after I had let her socialise in all the wrong ways as my earlier GSDs had been much lower drive), otherwise she never could have been off lead around other dogs she didn't know.

But anyway, this is COMPLETELY off track, so back to the topic at hand. What are some strategies others use when running multiple dogs together in managing them and any possible conflicts?

To be honest MissMaddy, your posts are confusing as to what the situation is to receive anything of value other than suggesting a behaviourists consultation???. The 4 year old GSD is insecure around other dogs and you couldn't have her off leash until Ecollar training meaning what, she would run away from other dogs and you couldn't catch her, or she would attack them, but she is apparanty not dog aggressive according to what you have told us, but you are concerned with a fight breaking out between her and the Rotty pup which doesn't really paint a logical picture of the siuation IMHO:confused:

Would I be correct in saying, the GSD is ultimately dog aggressive and was the reason for the Ecollar training as she was untrustworthy around other dogs and could lash out from insecurity and given her history, she is causing concern displaying aggressive posturing towards the Rotty pup and you are concerned that she has the potential to nail the pup if things got nasty between them???.

No, she is NOT dog aggressive, and in no place did I ever say that. She is insecure when meeting new dogs, and avoids confrontation at any costs (not taking off, but gives off insecure, and sometimes defensive body language). The issues we had with other dogs off lead was her going into prey drive and chasing them, for example if they were chasing a ball. She would not "nail" them, but also would not come back. This obsession became so bad that I couldn't get her focus off the running dog even with a strong correction on lead. I knew no better when she was a puppy than to allow her to obtain drive satisfaction from doing this, but after consulting with behaviourists we corrected this problem with the e collar. Her working level on the dogtra was obtained with no distraction, so there was no aversive stimuli to test her "nerve" with in obtaining this. I have not done e collar training with the younger GSD or the rotty, so I'll be very interested to see what their working level is.

The reason I was worried about a fight now is;

1) 2 bitches together, and having heard of so many stories of fights wanted to make sure we never go there

2) they had a small "tiff" and I want to make sure it never goes further, however, I see now that in my tiredness of the end of a long and busy night at work I probably set them up for it.

3) After this tiff, both girls were a bit wary of each other, and did a small amount of posturing very soon after (but it was more that they were unsure of each other than challenging), but this seems to have all stopped and the rotty gone back to her earlier submissive demeanor since toughening the boundaries. I was also picking up on much more subtle changes which seem to have improved as I said.

I'm sorry if my posts have been confusing, as I said I've been on night shifts, and most of them were written after having finished work, so I realise some may have not made much sense.

Thank you everyone for your great suggestions, they've given me some great ideas to not only manage these dogs in regards to what I was initially worried about, but also managing them so the place is less chaotic with 3 big dogs around. :p

[Cosmolo]

We have 5 dogs here- 3 bitches and 2 dogs. First of all, choosing the right personalities is very important and i think if a home truly has a mis match in this respect things get alot more difficult.

Rules here are pretty simple- With the exception of a reasonable quick correction from the 2 older bitches and occasionally the oldest dog- there is no posturing or overt aggression. We intervene in sitiations before the need to aggress arises- for example, all the dogs eat together (separate bowls) but there is never any stealing permitted regardless of hierarchy- all the dogs relax when eating because they know they will never have to defend their food. This is one of the first rules any new dog learns when they enter the home. While i understand many prefer to feed separately and i recommend this to others at times- this works well for my current pack. I would not hesitate to feed separately if needed though.

Going through doors etc is controlled with the order in which they enter and exit varying. This is more to stop 5 dogs taking the door (or unfortunate person!) out on their way in/ out than anything else but it is one situation that i believe also creates good leadership and balance.

Toys are allowed freely with the exception of high value drive toys- this is done both for training purposes but also because the alpha bitch and youngest dog are both extremely drivey and 'hard' when these things are out and it is the one situation where i believe there could be a fight if we were not sensible/ careful.

Exceptional obedience for ALL dogs- no exceptions is unbelievably helpful as is exercise and stimulation. Individual training, free shaping etc is very beneficial in this house- 4 dogs on bed watching, one dog working and then we swap. We have a great 'bed send' too which is very helpful, especially when visitors arrive etc.

I don't care about the pecking order between the dogs in 99% of situations- i pat, feed, treat, play with whoever i want in whatever order. However there are 2 situations that we have reinforced existing hierarchy- one is when we have been away on holidays and the dogs have gone to separate boarding, when the bottom bitch sees the alpha bitch again, there is a little posturing from her and this is not tolerated- things settle within 5 minutes once we reinforce this. The other situation was with the youngest boy JRT- alpha dog corrected him and he fired up at her and he was told that is not to be tolerated!

Every dog pack is different though and what works for one lot of personalities may not work for another. I am sure Four Paws will be able to assist you when you get the chance too.

[Aidan3]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

:D

[JulesP]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

:D

Huh?

[m-j]

no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other,

How do you do that?

[MissMaddy]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

I'm confused too. Do I know you from another forum Aidan2?

:D at the halti comment. Now that you mention it...................... :D

[Staff'n'Toller]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

When you find out how to do that, I would like to know the formula to input for one of mine, so he can think of nice things about the cat. :D

[ChristineX]

That forum did have some interesting comments!

[Aidan3]

no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other,

:D How do you do that?

Hypnosis? Subliminal cassettes played through speakers under their pillows as they sleep?

[m-j]

no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other,

How do you do that?

Hypnosis? Subliminal cassettes played through speakers under their pillows as they sleep?

:D

[Aidan3]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

:D

When you find out how to do that, I would like to know the formula to input for one of mine, so he can think of nice things about the cat.

He's already thinking nice things about the cat, that's the problem!

[Staff'n'Toller]

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti.

:D

When you find out how to do that, I would like to know the formula to input for one of mine, so he can think of nice things about the cat.

He's already thinking nice things about the cat, that's the problem!

Hehe, maybe I should say nice, peaceful, friendly things.

[huski]

PMSL! Another classic Abed et al thread.

[MissMaddy]

Interesting "other" forum.

I guess if you want to twist stuff round to your own meaning Abed, go right ahead. And, if you wish to stalk my previous posts and twist what I've said around further, you obviously have nothing better to do. :D

My bitch IS NOT fear aggressive (or any type of aggressive), as a lot of dogs would have become following her experiences (and by an adult dog which actually attacked her, more intimidating than just dominated her, but this thread was never about that, it was about managing multiple dogs). Again, I AM NOT worried about her nailing the 8 month old rotty (hardly a little 8 week old pup), I was actually concerned that they were BOTH giving off signs that something bad might occur if things weren't managed correctly. She has NEVER started or been involved in a fight/attack on another dog, nor does she turn tail and take off when she sees other dogs or they challenge her, she merely tries to avoid the confrontation. The most recent time she was lunged at at training by 3 separate DA dogs (the reason I never went back to this particular venue as more than half of the dogs were dog aggressive), she simply looked briefly at them, then focused straight back on me to get on with training.

YES, they do have 3 SEPARATE runs, as I don't leave anyone together when I'm not home.

And the behaviourists I have used previously were Erny (pro k9) and Steve (k9 pro), I'm sure their methods weren't purely for "border collie" temperaments, and yes they both DO advocate the use of a prong, which I probably would have considered had they been legal here (and possible to use where I trained), however the e collar has been sufficient. She DOES NOT shut down, she has merely been taught self control and that I CAN back up a verbal command without having to give physical corrections.

Edited for spelling and grammar.

Edited January 3, 2011 by MissMaddy

[Cosmolo]

Where is this other forum..?

[MissMaddy]

Can I put a link? Or do I need to pm you Cosmolo?