Being The Leader

[corvus]

Given there appears to be agreement that it's hard to stop a fight before it starts, and perhaps taking into account what I said about the difficulties of correcting a dog consistently whenever it shows signs of aggressive behaviour towards the other dog (I don't have eyes in the back of my head), I am wondering just how an e-collar is going to work? Particularly considering the OP's problem is in its genesis, so the behaviour is not yet learnt but is emotionally driven. I, like Aidan, would be very concerned about undesirable classical conditioning taking place. It strikes me as kinda dumb to treat a budding aggression problem between two dogs that live together with significant P+, which I assume is what you're talking about when you say a nick on high level stim, abed. If there have been aggressive encounters, even if no fights have occurred, chances are the associations are already creeping towards negative. It seems like adding more negative to the mix is a tightrope walk between suppressing behaviour and creating a negative emotional response to the presence of the handler and the other dog all in the same place, which could well fuel the aggressive behaviour rather than suppress it.

[abed]

Given there appears to be agreement that it's hard to stop a fight before it starts, and perhaps taking into account what I said about the difficulties of correcting a dog consistently whenever it shows signs of aggressive behaviour towards the other dog (I don't have eyes in the back of my head), I am wondering just how an e-collar is going to work? Particularly considering the OP's problem is in its genesis, so the behaviour is not yet learnt but is emotionally driven. I, like Aidan, would be very concerned about undesirable classical conditioning taking place. It strikes me as kinda dumb to treat a budding aggression problem between two dogs that live together with significant P+, which I assume is what you're talking about when you say a nick on high level stim, abed. If there have been aggressive encounters, even if no fights have occurred, chances are the associations are already creeping towards negative. It seems like adding more negative to the mix is a tightrope walk between suppressing behaviour and creating a negative emotional response to the presence of the handler and the other dog all in the same place, which could well fuel the aggressive behaviour rather than suppress it.

I use an Ecollar in this instance as a remote leash or to gain the dog's attention as a diversion from the behaviour exhibited. My middle dog as an example as I know their behaviour well to speak with greater accuracy can instigate a scruff with my youngest with dominance gestures. He can exhibit this with my older one who is more submissive and doesn't react to a dominant gesture or walks away so we have never encountered fighting situation or anything close with these two. However, my youngest will rise to a challenge from my middle dog being the two we have to watch. My middle dog is a showline/working line mix GSD and is a bit over sharp with defence driven aggression. The youngest is a full working line GSD stable in temperament, not aggressive in the slightest unless provoked or challenged...........the younger one has the most correct temperament expected of a GSD.

As a behavioural example, the younger one may be laying on the floor half asleep. The middle dog may walk into the room and stand near the young one and stare at him just out of the blue. The young one will look up at the middle dog where the middle dog will take a dominant stance, tail goes up, ears forward in a stare. The younger one gets up, his tail goes up and middle dog will begin to growl. So the situation at this point is two dogs facing each other, one growling and the other posturing as if ok, you want to fight, bring it on so to speak, but neither IMHO really want a fight and is bit more about who is going to back down and resolve the issue. This has escalated in the past into a couple of scraps, nothing serious other than noise and slobber, but we obviously don't need it escalating into something greater.

In a challenging stance, obedience is out the window in voice command, but if you grab the middle dog and tell him "hey, knock it off, he resumes obedience and drop the notion and the younger dog will relax once the pressure is off and they are friends again, no grudges. If we grab the younger one, his aggression level escalates and he will growl which makes the middle dog growl more and the situation intensifies. The middle dog is the one we need to target to resolve the situation as he is quite handler submissive also. Corvus, you and Aidan are probably more indepth in behavioural science than I am as to what's happening from a psychological aspect but the symptoms are as I explained.

Not having eyes in the back of head or an extender leash to interrupt a stand off, the Ecollar on the middle dog set at a meduim/high stim in nick provides a sharp stim of a millisecond duration, enough stim for his head to flick up when activated. On a stand off as I explained and for the most part typically we have 3 GSD's follwing us around from room to room as they do with the transmitter in pocket, if a standoff occurs, I would would be a NO command then a stim on the middle dog who would immediately drop the notion and look at me, where then I will call him to me and praise the recall and all is calm and relaxed. With consistancy in this method with then E collar, I guess it took 3 or 4 days and 10/12 stims to correct the behaviour and haven't had a standoff or scrap since Dec '09. I have also used the method with several other dog to dog aggression problems with the same success of varying techniques depending on the situation.

The Ecollar essentially is used as an interrupter like a quick leash correction, "hey I am talking to you, knock that off and come here". With my dogs, I was able to monitor the situation and work at it effectively before a standoff and scruff developed into a serious fight, but the moment I have three in the backyard barking at fireworks, I need to address that..............where's my transmitter :D

Happy new year guy's

[fuzzy82]

Avoiding fights isn't about showing them who's boss or being a better leader. It's smart management and conditioning being around the others with something good, and training.

Blaming lack of leadership for behavioural problems is a bit of a cop out. "Your dog doesn't come when called because he doesn't respect you", "Your dog fights other dogs because you're not a strong enough leader". Rubbish, it's all about training and reinforcing good stuff and not rewarding bad stuff and smart management the rest of the time. (Oversimplified)

[abed]

Avoiding fights isn't about showing them who's boss or being a better leader. It's smart management and conditioning being around the others with something good, and training.

Blaming lack of leadership for behavioural problems is a bit of a cop out. "Your dog doesn't come when called because he doesn't respect you", "Your dog fights other dogs because you're not a strong enough leader". Rubbish, it's all about training and reinforcing good stuff and not rewarding bad stuff and smart management the rest of the time. (Oversimplified)

That's one way to achieve it Fuzzy82 I agree You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO :D

Edited December 31, 2010 by abed

[Aidan3]

Chasing dogs around in a scruff is hard to grab their back legs quickly and is not as easy as it sounds especially for smaller people with large dogs.

As far as I know, these dogs are not fighting and I would hope that any behaviourist MissMaddy seeks out will be interested in keeping it that way.

I don't understand which appears as a muzzle objection Aidan???. I am coming from the stance that even with conditioning and introducing known aggressors back into closer proximity, I muzzle them as insurance.

You seem to be discussing a hypothetical situation that does not accurately represent the issues relevant to this thread. Have these dogs fought?

I use muzzles, but I won't use a muzzle to enable someone to continue putting their dog into situations that lead to the dog learning more unwanted behaviours. Biting stops when a muzzle on, but learning doesn't.

[Aidan3]

You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour?

[abed]

Chasing dogs around in a scruff is hard to grab their back legs quickly and is not as easy as it sounds especially for smaller people with large dogs.

As far as I know, these dogs are not fighting and I would hope that any behaviourist MissMaddy seeks out will be interested in keeping it that way.

I don't understand which appears as a muzzle objection Aidan???. I am coming from the stance that even with conditioning and introducing known aggressors back into closer proximity, I muzzle them as insurance.

You seem to be discussing a hypothetical situation that does not accurately represent the issues relevant to this thread. Have these dogs fought?

I use muzzles, but I won't use a muzzle to enable someone to continue putting their dog into situations that lead to the dog learning more unwanted behaviours. Biting stops when a muzzle on, but learning doesn't.

The point is Aidan, aggressive posturing can escalate fast and it happens when you often don't expect, so IMHO you need to be prepared unless the dogs are separated. Forget behaviours learned or otherwise as whilst the dogs can interact together even under supervison a fight can break out quickly, so hypothetically you can take precuations or have the "she'l be right" attitude because a fight has yet to occur I guess

[abed]

You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour?

Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally.

[Aidan3]

You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour?

Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally.

We routinely work with "stuff of higher value" using only +R, it's only a problem if it's dangerous and fluency can't be achieved quickly enough.

[abed]

You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour?

Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally.

We routinely work with "stuff of higher value" using only +R, it's only a problem if it's dangerous and fluency can't be achieved quickly enough.

It depends on the individual dog too..........one of mine of the highest prey drive is the easiest dog to train using drive to condition the responses I need, absolutely no comparison to one of my others who doesn't have the same value for my offerings.

[JulesP]

MissMaddy I don't think being a strong leader stops scuffles from happening. Dogs fight. I think being a strong leader means that if you tell them to stop it that they do straight away.

How about Four Paws k9 Training? Think you need help ASAP.

[Aidan3]

so hypothetically you can take precuations or have the "she'l be right" attitude because a fight has yet to occur I guess

Who is taking a "she'll be right" attitude? Your experience seems to be limited to your own situation, and if you've got a handle on it then I applaud you for that, but that's not a very broad perspective and assumes a lot.

Keeping in mind that this is an "internet diagnosis" (not a real one, and something that so far I have otherwise avoided), it appears that we have three normal dogs with no bite or serious fight history. How do we end up with all three dogs in muzzles and a cautious hand hovering over the remote with the stim turned up to 100?! That's doesn't sound like "calm, assertive leadership" to me, no wonder the dogs are anxious too.

What happened to waiting politely for attention, long-downs in a group, recalling one dog at a time, manners around food bowls and all the stuff normal dogs are capable of without getting their knickers in a twist? Good manners, deference, learning how to get satisfaction without aggressive displays (that are almost certainly just displays, intended to avoid an actual confrontation)? Knowing that you aren't going to miss out. Knowing that the world doesn't end if another dog gets some attention. Knowing that your walk will come later. Not getting everyone too excited to think, having an "off switch", having self control despite whatever else is going on. Hardly "she'll be right", but not the other extreme either.

Some dogs are abnormal. They need to be muzzled, or separated, or corrected. Sometimes they learn to be this way - something their owner did, something that happened by accident, or a bad mix in the "pack". Thankfully this is a fairly small percentage. If the OP has a dog or dogs like this then she needs a face-to-face consultation with someone able to make that call, not internet advice.

Anxiety and aggression breed more anxiety and aggression. It starts from the top and trickles down. If the leader isn't confident, calm and in control - no-one else is either. Not the only way it happens, but a good way to accelerate an issue if one is brewing!

Edited January 1, 2011 by Aidan2

[abed]

so hypothetically you can take precuations or have the "she'l be right" attitude because a fight has yet to occur I guess

Who is taking a "she'll be right" attitude? Your experience seems to be limited to your own situation, and if you've got a handle on it then I applaud you for that, but that's not a very broad perspective and assumes a lot.

Keeping in mind that this is an "internet diagnosis" (not a real one, and something that so far I have otherwise avoided), it appears that we have three normal dogs with no bite or serious fight history. How do we end up with all three dogs in muzzles and a cautious hand hovering over the remote with the stim turned up to 100?! That's doesn't sound like "calm, assertive leadership" to me, no wonder the dogs are anxious too.

What happened to waiting politely for attention, long-downs in a group, recalling one dog at a time, manners around food bowls and all the stuff normal dogs are capable of without getting their knickers in a twist? Good manners, deference, learning how to get satisfaction without aggressive displays (that are almost certainly just displays, intended to avoid an actual confrontation)? Knowing that you aren't going to miss out. Knowing that the world doesn't end if another dog gets some attention. Knowing that your walk will come later. Not getting everyone too excited to think, having an "off switch", having self control despite whatever else is going on. Hardly "she'll be right", but not the other extreme either.

Some dogs are abnormal. They need to be muzzled, or separated, or corrected. Sometimes they learn to be this way - something their owner did, something that happened by accident, or a bad mix in the "pack". Thankfully this is a fairly small percentage. If the OP has a dog or dogs like this then she needs a face-to-face consultation with someone able to make that call, not internet advice.

Anxiety and aggression breed more anxiety and aggression. It starts from the top and trickles down. If the leader isn't confident, calm and in control - no-one else is either. Not the only way it happens, but a good way to accelerate an issue if one is brewing!

Everything you have explained Aidan takes time and that level of conditioning isn't going to happen in the next 30 minutes is it??? So in the mean time if aggression is brewing, it needs to be addressed if preventing a fight is the desired outcome..............that's what I am talking about with muzzles IF the dogs are not separated or the OP is not in the position to break up a fight if one arises. A dog can loose it's cool in milliseconds and because a fight hasn't occurred yet when aggression is lingering, doesn't provide a guarantee that fight won't occur. I am getting the impression that because the dogs haven't fought to date, you believe the aggression is unlikely to escalate before the conditioning processes take effect from adequate training which can take months, is that correct???. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong???.

Out of interest Aidan, do you also inlcude the training of security and protection dogs in your services???.

[corvus]

The Ecollar essentially is used as an interrupter like a quick leash correction, "hey I am talking to you, knock that off and come here".

Okay, but how do you guarantee consistency? My experience when I was dealing with this was with a much softer dog and a verbal interruption was sufficient. She had very good bite inhibition and she was not trying to start fights, just snarking at my pup. Poor little guy could hardly do anything without getting snarked at. So as long as I was aware of her at all times, I could stop it, but I just could not be aware of her at all times. Sometimes it would happen behind me, or when I was in another room, or when I had my attention on a book, or the tv, or talking to someone. There was no way for me to be consistent enough to change the behaviour. In the end I had the most success with giving her more attention and managing situations where I knew she was likely to get snarky so she couldn't get at the pup. Did it teach her consequences? No. But teaching her consequences didn't address the problem, and this did. It didn't take a long time. The effects were instantaneous. That's the beauty of nailing the emotional drive behind a behaviour.

I don't really buy the "dogs need to learn consequences" argument. Why let them fail so they can learn they did? Why not just concentrate on not letting them practice behaviour you don't want in the first place? Then it doesn't ever become a problem.

[Aidan3]

Out of interest Aidan, do you also inlcude the training of security and protection dogs in your services???.

No, I only offer services in my area of competence.

Have I missed something, are these security or protection trained dogs from working lines? I thought they were show dogs.

[Aidan3]

I don't really buy the "dogs need to learn consequences" argument

People forget that, above all, it is about learning, not quadrants.

[abed]

The Ecollar essentially is used as an interrupter like a quick leash correction, "hey I am talking to you, knock that off and come here".

Okay, but how do you guarantee consistency? My experience when I was dealing with this was with a much softer dog and a verbal interruption was sufficient. She had very good bite inhibition and she was not trying to start fights, just snarking at my pup. Poor little guy could hardly do anything without getting snarked at. So as long as I was aware of her at all times, I could stop it, but I just could not be aware of her at all times. Sometimes it would happen behind me, or when I was in another room, or when I had my attention on a book, or the tv, or talking to someone. There was no way for me to be consistent enough to change the behaviour. In the end I had the most success with giving her more attention and managing situations where I knew she was likely to get snarky so she couldn't get at the pup. Did it teach her consequences? No. But teaching her consequences didn't address the problem, and this did. It didn't take a long time. The effects were instantaneous. That's the beauty of nailing the emotional drive behind a behaviour.

I don't really buy the "dogs need to learn consequences" argument. Why let them fail so they can learn they did? Why not just concentrate on not letting them practice behaviour you don't want in the first place? Then it doesn't ever become a problem.

Corvus, when your dog responded to a verbal interruption and you could call her away from the pup, I don't see that teaching her that getting snarky with pup is an unwanted behaviour without a consequence for doing so. Depending on the dog's temperament, it may be a NO, GRRRR, verbally or stim from an Ecollar, IMHO the dog has to learn that a particular behaviour isn't tolorated so the rules are black and white. You can manage a behaviour with diversion and luring and sometimes it works depending on the situation, but I don't think it's as reliable in the crunch as a double reinforcer where the dog has learned the good and the bad.

Another scenario could be a dog trying to climb the back fence and another couple of inches to go and the dog has hooked onto the fence top and over. You could manage it by extending the fence higher, placing a barricade in front of the fence to prevent the dog reaching the fence etc and you have stopped the dog climbing "that" fence, but have you stopped the dogs desire to fence climb...........I would say no???. I remember where a fence climbing escape artist got his front paw wedged between a broken picket and was hanging there by the leg and a next door neighbour heard his cries in pain, ran over and freed him from the fence, he was sore but ok. That's an extreme experience of aversion to fence climbing, but that dog never again tried to climb a fence or escape from the yard. He wouldn't touch a fence with anything but his nose afterwards so he learned a consequence for that behaviour and YES it fixed the problem instantly.

If we didn't provide a negative consequence for trying to climb a fence, apart from managing the behaviour mechanically, how would you condition and train the dog not to fence climb with positive motivation???. Bit off topic from aggression, but it's relevent as a reconditioning process of unwanted behaviour.

[bedazzledx2]

Tosh!!!!

Avoiding fights isn't about showing them who's boss or being a better leader. It's smart management and conditioning being around the others with something good, and training.

Blaming lack of leadership for behavioural problems is a bit of a cop out. "Your dog doesn't come when called because he doesn't respect you", "Your dog fights other dogs because you're not a strong enough leader". Rubbish, it's all about training and reinforcing good stuff and not rewarding bad stuff and smart management the rest of the time. (Oversimplified)

That's one way to achieve it Fuzzy82 I agree You can reinforce all the good stuff, spare the dog learning consequence to misbehaviour then smartly manage the unreliability, but essentially that doesn't build a very obedient dog IMHO

Edited January 1, 2011 by bedazzledx2

[abed]

Out of interest Aidan, do you also inlcude the training of security and protection dogs in your services???.

No, I only offer services in my area of competence.

Have I missed something, are these security or protection trained dogs from working lines? I thought they were show dogs.

I heard that you were experienced with working lines GSD's and thought perhaps you may conduct protection training in that case.

[Aidan3]

I heard that you were experienced with working lines GSD's and thought perhaps you may conduct protection training in that case.

I have one myself and she will take a sleeve, but it's just fun. Not many working-line dogs in Tassie.