Being The Leader

[Erny]

No - don't put a link. It's against forum rules.

Would you PM me too, MM? I'm curious .

[MissMaddy]

Have pm'd you both.

Gotta say, this is the first thread I've started with this sort of hoo haa!

I only started this as although I've had GSDs for years, I've never had more than 2 dogs together, and I know pack dynamics tend to be a lot more obvious with more than 2 dogs, so I was trying to ensure any subtle signs of trouble were managed early.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Where is the e-collar legal and the prong collar - illegal?

In my state - the prong collar is legal, and the e-collar is not.

As best I can tell, e-collars are not legal in Victoria under their "prevention of cruelty to animals" act.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/L...%20Dec%2008.pdf

Pdf page 15, doc page 11, division 2, section 11:

11 Placement or use of certain electronic devices

(1) A person must not use or place on any animal a

device that can impart an electric current or shock

to the animal.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

....

and

19 Remote training collars and anti-bark collars

(1) A person must not put a remote training collar or

anti-bark collar on a dog unless the person is—

(a) a veterinary practitioner or a qualified dog

trainer; or

(b) acting under the supervision and written

instructions of a veterinary practitioner or a

qualified dog trainer.

There's a lot more stuff about having the animal checked by a vet first and the operator getting training the animal being trained in the use and not leaving it on all the time.

So MissMaddy - have you talked to Steve at K9Pro again since your new dog has arrived and gotten any ideas from him. Then at least you could claim "supervision by a qualifed dog trainer".

[huski]

The other forum is specialistcanine. Try not to think about it too much MM. Abed (and any of his other aliases) loves to stir the pot on DOL.

Edited January 3, 2011 by huski

[MissMaddy]

No, I have not spoken to Steve as yet, as I was told he was away somewhere (possibly on this thread). It was through his supervision (and erny's) that I commenced and continued using the ecollar after consulting my vet. I have, however, had the help of the rotty's breeder who herself is a trainer at the rotty club and was quite actively involved in schutzhund training until the laws changed here (Victoria), so I'm thinking she would count.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Fair enough MM.

Steve has been spotted surfing these forums today - so you could drop him an email and either link this thread or just explain directly where you're at and where you want to be. He's great with "after sales support" or even "pre sales support".

[MissMaddy]

Thank MRB, have just been informed he's now back. Trying to decide if internet consultation, or taking the dogs out of their home environment would be more beneficial.

[Diva]

Gotta say, this is the first thread I've started with this sort of hoo haa!

To this casual observer, most of the training threads about GSDs seem to go that way. It's rather funny to watch. Kind of like bad reality TV. But not at all constructive.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Diva

[MissMaddy]

Gotta say, this is the first thread I've started with this sort of hoo haa! :D

To this casual observer, most of the training threads about GSDs seem to go that way. It's rather funny to watch. Kind of like bad reality TV.

And it always seems to be the same people too.

Guess I should have know better. :D

ETA- but there have been some very constructive posts too, so thank you to those who have put them up. I'll look back on them out of all of the non useful ones.

Edited January 3, 2011 by MissMaddy

[MissMaddy]

Ironically, I think our issues began with the GSD being too tollerant with the younger dogs, and the rotty bitch got a bit cocky until she was reminded of who was the boss around here!

[abed]

Please tell me we're not going to have a show vs working line debate again.

No other correction actually worked for my girl initially where other dogs were concerned (or the 2 cats that used to be next door who teased her), you could give her a pretty strong correction and she'd act like you were an annoying fly, if you even got that much acknolwedgement when she really went into drive. Had I of put the e-collar on her and gone straight to high level distraction, she would have been somewhere up around 50-70 (which is why I did so much work with lower level distractions). Now she knows that by responding to the lower level stim, that it doesn't go any higher (which she DID need the first time we moved onto high distraction as there wasn't enough medium distraction for her- I did need to turn it up once to around 70 when she unexpectedly saw the next door neighbours cat she hated).

Thank goodness I found dol when I did, as well as some decent trainers and behaviourists (after I had let her socialise in all the wrong ways as my earlier GSDs had been much lower drive), otherwise she never could have been off lead around other dogs she didn't know.

But anyway, this is COMPLETELY off track, so back to the topic at hand. What are some strategies others use when running multiple dogs together in managing them and any possible conflicts?

To be honest MissMaddy, your posts are confusing as to what the situation is to receive anything of value other than suggesting a behaviourists consultation???. The 4 year old GSD is insecure around other dogs and you couldn't have her off leash until Ecollar training meaning what, she would run away from other dogs and you couldn't catch her, or she would attack them, but she is apparanty not dog aggressive according to what you have told us, but you are concerned with a fight breaking out between her and the Rotty pup which doesn't really paint a logical picture of the siuation IMHO:confused:

Would I be correct in saying, the GSD is ultimately dog aggressive and was the reason for the Ecollar training as she was untrustworthy around other dogs and could lash out from insecurity and given her history, she is causing concern displaying aggressive posturing towards the Rotty pup and you are concerned that she has the potential to nail the pup if things got nasty between them???.

No, she is NOT dog aggressive, and in no place did I ever say that. She is insecure when meeting new dogs, and avoids confrontation at any costs (not taking off, but gives off insecure, and sometimes defensive body language). The issues we had with other dogs off lead was her going into prey drive and chasing them, for example if they were chasing a ball. She would not "nail" them, but also would not come back. This obsession became so bad that I couldn't get her focus off the running dog even with a strong correction on lead. I knew no better when she was a puppy than to allow her to obtain drive satisfaction from doing this, but after consulting with behaviourists we corrected this problem with the e collar. Her working level on the dogtra was obtained with no distraction, so there was no aversive stimuli to test her "nerve" with in obtaining this. I have not done e collar training with the younger GSD or the rotty, so I'll be very interested to see what their working level is.

The reason I was worried about a fight now is;

1) 2 bitches together, and having heard of so many stories of fights wanted to make sure we never go there

2) they had a small "tiff" and I want to make sure it never goes further, however, I see now that in my tiredness of the end of a long and busy night at work I probably set them up for it.

3) After this tiff, both girls were a bit wary of each other, and did a small amount of posturing very soon after (but it was more that they were unsure of each other than challenging), but this seems to have all stopped and the rotty gone back to her earlier submissive demeanor since toughening the boundaries. I was also picking up on much more subtle changes which seem to have improved as I said.

I'm sorry if my posts have been confusing, as I said I've been on night shifts, and most of them were written after having finished work, so I realise some may have not made much sense.

Thank you everyone for your great suggestions, they've given me some great ideas to not only manage these dogs in regards to what I was initially worried about, but also managing them so the place is less chaotic with 3 big dogs around. :D

Thanks for that, I understand where you are coming from now

[abed]

Interesting "other" forum.

I guess if you want to twist stuff round to your own meaning Abed, go right ahead. And, if you wish to stalk my previous posts and twist what I've said around further, you obviously have nothing better to do.

My bitch IS NOT fear aggressive (or any type of aggressive), as a lot of dogs would have become following her experiences (and by an adult dog which actually attacked her, more intimidating than just dominated her, but this thread was never about that, it was about managing multiple dogs). Again, I AM NOT worried about her nailing the 8 month old rotty (hardly a little 8 week old pup), I was actually concerned that they were BOTH giving off signs that something bad might occur if things weren't managed correctly. She has NEVER started or been involved in a fight/attack on another dog, nor does she turn tail and take off when she sees other dogs or they challenge her, she merely tries to avoid the confrontation. The most recent time she was lunged at at training by 3 separate DA dogs (the reason I never went back to this particular venue as more than half of the dogs were dog aggressive), she simply looked briefly at them, then focused straight back on me to get on with training.

YES, they do have 3 SEPARATE runs, as I don't leave anyone together when I'm not home.

And the behaviourists I have used previously were Erny (pro k9) and Steve (k9 pro), I'm sure their methods weren't purely for "border collie" temperaments, and yes they both DO advocate the use of a prong, which I probably would have considered had they been legal here (and possible to use where I trained), however the e collar has been sufficient. She DOES NOT shut down, she has merely been taught self control and that I CAN back up a verbal command without having to give physical corrections.

Edited for spelling and grammar.

Care to enlighten me what you are talking about please MissMaddy, I simply asked for a better understanding of the situation which you provided :D

[abed]

The other forum is specialistcanine. Try not to think about it too much MM. Abed (and any of his other aliases) loves to stir the pot on DOL.

Excuse me Huski, can you provide an explanation for a necessity to associate me with something written on another forum other than "stirring the pot". These are all public forums, "anyone" can read something here and make a post somewhere else word for word in they wanted to............it could be you writing in other forums for all we know

Edited January 3, 2011 by abed

[corvus]

Ironically, I think our issues began with the GSD being too tollerant with the younger dogs, and the rotty bitch got a bit cocky until she was reminded of who was the boss around here!

Really? I was quite worried that was going to happen with Erik. Kivi is extremely tolerant. He'd let Erik do anything to him, including stealing his food. Erik is about half Kivi's size, though. There's a limit to what Erik can do to him. To some extent I want them to learn to get along and leaving them be I think helps them learn where the boundaries with each other are. I found over a few months to begin with they both modified their behaviour to promote harmony between them. I am perfectly happy for them to get annoyed with one another as long as they deal with it with a boisterous wrestling game rather than snarking. But I will interrupt the wrestling game if it gets too rough and noisy. I really love Erik's good down. It is a bit inherently calming and he's so used to it resulting in things he wants that he does it without thinking.

Obviously you know about NILIF, but I think it is sometimes not entirely understood. Karen Overall uses it extensively, but calls it a Protocol for Deference. There is an excerpt from her book that explains the ideas behind it here. I think maybe it helps to understand that it's more than just installing a rule structure where everything comes through you. It's also teaching dogs to habitually defer to you and be calm about not getting what they want immediately. It also gives them confidence, so helps anxious dogs as well as pushy dogs. It's very nice to have dogs that assume to get what they want they need to be calm and wait quietly. Unfortunately, Erik has to test this with every new person he meets just in case they don't know about the rules. I always warn people that he will pretend he doesn't know how to behave and they should get in before he does with a cue, but they rarely appreciate just how quick he is until they experience it for themselves. He will always fill a void with what he wants to do. I learnt to be very proactive and make sure I was telling him what he should do before he got the chance to think of something obnoxious. I don't let him practice behaviour I don't want him to keep doing. If I can help it, I will manage him so he doesn't even have a chance to try behaviour I don't want.

[MissMaddy]

Corvus, she used to use noise if the pups (and older males) at training annoyed her and jumped on her to try and correct them, but if that doesn't work, she really can't be bothered going further and walks away. The rotty bitch started off very submissive to her, but has gotten cocky and knows my girl won't give her a really big correction, so started pushing the boundaries in that typical teenage way. Now that the rotty has been reminded that I'm the boss around here, she's gone back to submissive, and much better behaved (as they all are now) as all rough play is off.

Just in case you wanted to see how big and agressive she is!

This is her with dogs I house sat with, and the chi was quite fear agressive. She just ignored it until he decided she wasn't so scary and he could play with her (which she LOVED)

And her favourite little people, she's asking them to please scratch her tummy.

[huski]

The other forum is specialistcanine. Try not to think about it too much MM. Abed (and any of his other aliases) loves to stir the pot on DOL.

Excuse me Huski, can you provide an explanation for a necessity to associate me with something written on another forum other than "stirring the pot". These are all public forums, "anyone" can read something here and make a post somewhere else word for word in they wanted to............it could be you writing in other forums for all we know

Yawn, sure thing Nev.