Being The Leader

[MissMaddy]

Ok, so I thought I was doing pretty well, but my dogs have given me the impression I'm not doing as well as I thought.

I have recently added a rottie bitch to my existing 2 GSDs (over a month ago), so I now have 3 dogs; a 4yo GSD bitch, a 1yo GSD male and an 8 month old rottie bitch. All of them are entire as I show.

The bitches have started showing me signs that a fight may happen in the future, and I want to make sure it doesn't happen, EVER! I'm wanting some tips to re-establish myself as the one who says who can do what and when, and it's not one of them!

I already make sure the GSD bitch comes in through doorways first (after me of course), eats first, etc, as she is currently the one who is the boss, however she's no a truly dominant bitch, so this may change. I honestly don't care who sits where, but I don't want fights over it, as I control the resources around here, so a fight will not change that.

I'm near Bendigo, so we have a severe shortage of qualified behaviourists. I'll probably be driving to see one shortly, but I'm not sure the same behaviour would show away from home. Until then, what are some little things I can do to make sure they know I say what goes? As I said, I thought I was, but the dogs are telling me otherwise.

[Aidan3]

I already make sure the GSD bitch comes in through doorways first (after me of course), eats first, etc, as she is currently the one who is the boss, however she's no a truly dominant bitch, so this may change. I honestly don't care who sits where, but I don't want fights over it, as I control the resources around here, so a fight will not change that.

It really isn't about who goes through doors first, eats first etc. Consistency is great, controlling resources is great; provided they are things you can and will do consistently. But tell us something else you do that demonstrates leadership? I'm not being confrontational here, it's just that anyone - even a terrible, terrible leader - can follow a handful of rules that don't mean anything at all unless they are in context.

For e.g. someone might tell me they never let their dog pull them anywhere on leash. But then I watch them, and the dog pulls and he sniffs something. Sure, the person didn't move, but the pulling still worked to get the dog what he wanted. Let's say we have someone who has read all the old books on dog training, their dog always waits at doorways, eats after them, isn't allowed on the couch or bed, must wait for permission before eating etc etc But their dog has no recall (which is fine), but they take the dog to the beach and he runs with other dogs and then the owner spends half an hour yelling at him while he plays with other dogs. There is an inconsistency there.

Both those examples are someone following "rules" that are essentially meaningless because the owner really doesn't get it and the dog finds it really easy to get what he wants in other ways.

Make the journey to see someone sooner rather than later, a bit of preventative help now could save you a lot of trouble later. Making sure that "what you say, goes" is really about training; reinforcing the things you like and preventing the things you don't like. If your dog had a poor recall, you wouldn't let it run with other dogs at the beach then yell when he didn't come back. Similarly, if your dogs squabble over who gets attention from you, it wouldn't be sensible to put them in a position where squabbling or posturing is the obvious option (you might teach them to go to their beds and wait turns, as an e.g of a possible solution).

I hope that helps.

[Erny]

I honestly don't care who sits where, but I don't want fights over it, as I control the resources around here, so a fight will not change that.

I agree with Aidan, sort of. I say "sort of" because I'm uncertain whether we share the same views for the same reasons when it comes to doorways etc. I think things like this do make a difference, but not necessarily because of the reasons we might have been first led to believe when we were taught these things. I believe it is a way of providing structure (and good manners) when people aren't really certain how to provide structure (or what 'good manners' they could be looking for). But to expect good manners through doorways, but allow the dogs to push you around in other ways .... well one thing kind of defeats the purpose of the other, which means you need to look for good manners across the board. And I think here I'm saying what Aidan has said.

I've quoted the above because I'm thinking that perhaps the "who sits where" has been the catalyst for an argument at some stage or another? This is not advice over the internet as I don't know your dogs, but if I had a multiple dog household I couldn't give a fig about who wants to sit where ..... they'd all get told to sit where I tell'em to if there were any hint of disgruntlement in my house. Where I tell them to sit may well likely have some bearing on fashioning it so that the chances of fight are reduced, but it would be a show of "it's my way or the highway" type attitude as far as I'm concerned.

All that aside, the "doorways" and "eating first" are the least effective (if effective at all) of things when other things/structures are not in place. NILIF is one thing. TOT (Triangle of Temptation) is another. Both are good leadership practices. But "attitude" can have almost a tangibility about it and something that dogs pick up on, so you need to be able to mean the intent behind what you do. And as Aidan has said, be consistent across the board with it.

But above all, until or unless you're confident that you can prevent or at the very least stop aggression in its tracks, you need to be careful about not creating a confrontational situation.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

With bitches squaring off, or fighting, it's not enough to follow the "paint by numbers" leadership stuff about doorways and eating first etc. If it were that simple, life would be a lot easier!

I think it's great you're considering professional help, because nothing you read here will replace someone looking at both bitches and at you interacting and then giving some well thought out EXPERIENCED advice.

You mention the GSD bitch, be aware that sometimes the problem is not coming from the place you first think it might be. Until you've had that appointment I would not leave them alone unsupervised - including while you're in another room or distracted. I would also keep them apart during "high arousal" times like you getting home, feeding, etc etc.

I don't want to alarm you, but a read of the threads in general about bitches fighting and killing each other is extremely sobering reading. You are right that you don't want to let them get to that first fight before help arrives, so make sure you manage them so that can't happen. Do you live alone? I have broken up a fight by myself between two medium sized dogs and it wasn't easy - I would not like to try it by myself with a Rottie and GSD tho' I know what I would do. So if this was me, I would completely separate until I had some pro help.

[MissMaddy]

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate them all, and was not expecting purely positve ones. I wrote this post for some honest, frank, and constructive advice. I admit that I must be falling down as a leader somewhere, and would like to fix that, so any suggestions are welcome. I think I have been misunderstood a little, however. When I say "who sits where" I mean I don't care if the younger bitch was to become above the older bitch in dominance, not who physcially sits in what spot in the lounge room. My point is, there is no place for a big bitch fight in this house and pack.

I have recently become a lot tougher when they're together, and have put boundaries on play time and how rough things are allowed to get. I have done TOT with their food, although not so much with the younger bitch, but she will start/stop eating when told, and is quite submissive to me. She has been mistreated, so I've worked hard to ensure she has very clear boundaries, whilst also building her trust in me. I probably don't adhere to NILIF closely enough, so I will definitely make sure I put this into practice a lot more strictly.

I have done e-collar training with my GSD bitch, and will be getting it back out again and using it. I have been offered the use of another one, and would like to do so with the rotty bitch, but I worry that she may be a little young at 8 months old.

I am fully aware of the horror and damage possible from a bitch fight, and don't want to have to live through that, and that is why I want to fix this NOW, when I see the early warning signs that things may not be harmonious unless I do something quickly.

I'm already starting to run the bitches separately with my boy in times of high arousal, and it has definitely helped reduce the stress levels.

Once I figure out who I'll be going to help for, I will do so asap, as I'd rather spend a few hundred now, than thousands down the track in surgeries, etc.

[Aidan3]

I have done e-collar training with my GSD bitch, and will be getting it back out again and using it. I have been offered the use of another one, and would like to do so with the rotty bitch, but I worry that she may be a little young at 8 months old.

As you have some experience with the e-collar I will assume you know that it is used either to reinforce behaviours (via -R, escape or avoidance) or to punish behaviours and what the difference is. I would suggest that if it has a place at all here, then it is as a reinforcer. I would not use it on one dog while in the company of another dog except under professional guidance. Most people are familiar with it's place in Operant Conditioning, but forget about Classical Conditioning. If you build an unpleasant association with another dog, that is a very damaging thing and hard to recover from.

Any uncertainty (not exactly sure what to do, not thinking straight) or concern (feels like under threat, sympathetic nervous system response) can lead to re-directed aggression. Where you have another dog in the picture, that's usually where it ends up. "Rank" does not matter (the lowest dog will redirect to the highest and vice-versa). When two dogs commit to a fight, an e-collar is almost completely useless even if both dogs are wearing one.

Regardless of one's personal philosophy when it comes to dog training, I would stick with positive reinforcement when training two or more dogs together. The associations formed are positive, and that is a good thing. In fact, I would be very judicious in my use of corrections when training dogs apart. Classical Conditioning is a very basic form of learning, we often overlook it, and it's hard to spot things like "dilated pupils" and other signs that our training has taken a wrong turn somewhere and a cue has become associated with an emotion that won't help the situation. You don't want to bring in baggage that will be amplified under tension when you have dogs together.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Aidan2

[dancinbcs]

Professional help asap would be best and continue to run them seperately until then. Other than that, some things that work for me.

I've never had bitch fights but have had males fight and the one exercise I found most effective in diffusing the situation was long down stays, side by side. To start with I actually muzzled the aggresor who was the younger more submissive dog. He was attacking the older dog out of fear and making him do drop stays next to the older dog, made him realise he had nothing to fear. It also puts you in charge and stops any posturing, teaching both dogs to relax in each others presence.

With my breed I have also always fed everyone together in their designated positions, about a metre apart, with the plates always put down in the same order. No dog is allowed to approach another dog's plate and they all stay in place until released. Even dogs I don't run together and visiting dogs are included in this ritual and I find it keeps everyone calm about food and keeps me in charge of resources. It works fine with BCs but don't know if it would work with bigger dogs that have the potential to fight seriously. Most fights with BCs are mainly noise and slobber, with only the occasional puncture or more serious wound.

[corvus]

I second the idea that it's just not as easy as "good leadership" sometimes. I have found that it means not a whole lot. Even good training means not a whole lot. The reason why is because you are basically trying to suppress a natural dog behaviour that is driven by emotion. IME even if you are rigorously consistent it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. My last dog would refrain from snarking at another dog as long as I told her not to do it before she did it. That required me to pick up the warning signs every single time, even when I was not looking at her. It was just not possible to enforce who got to do what in my house. Punishments after the fact even when linked to markers and used immediately after the behaviour actually made it worse. I soon had a dog that cowered from me after every incident, but still did it. The tension created by me trying to control it all just made her more likely to snap. I was lucky in that she was just old and grumpy and wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

Anyway, I have spitz breeds now and simply don't believe in "my house my rules" meaning anything to a dog. They will do what life has taught them to do. I can influence that as much as possible, but I am only human and there are always going to be things that sneak up on me or happen when I'm not looking. If I am for some reason not able to intervene at the crucial moment, then my dogs will do what seems necessary to them at the time. I work hard to make sure they don't need to be aggressive, but I'm fallible and dogs will do what works for them. I try to account for my fallibility by just not tempting fate in the first place.

[abed]

I have done e-collar training with my GSD bitch, and will be getting it back out again and using it. I have been offered the use of another one, and would like to do so with the rotty bitch, but I worry that she may be a little young at 8 months old.

As you have some experience with the e-collar I will assume you know that it is used either to reinforce behaviours (via -R, escape or avoidance) or to punish behaviours and what the difference is. I would suggest that if it has a place at all here, then it is as a reinforcer. I would not use it on one dog while in the company of another dog except under professional guidance. Most people are familiar with it's place in Operant Conditioning, but forget about Classical Conditioning. If you build an unpleasant association with another dog, that is a very damaging thing and hard to recover from.

Any uncertainty (not exactly sure what to do, not thinking straight) or concern (feels like under threat, sympathetic nervous system response) can lead to re-directed aggression. Where you have another dog in the picture, that's usually where it ends up. "Rank" does not matter (the lowest dog will redirect to the highest and vice-versa). When two dogs commit to a fight, an e-collar is almost completely useless even if both dogs are wearing one.

Regardless of one's personal philosophy when it comes to dog training, I would stick with positive reinforcement when training two or more dogs together. The associations formed are positive, and that is a good thing. In fact, I would be very judicious in my use of corrections when training dogs apart. Classical Conditioning is a very basic form of learning, we often overlook it, and it's hard to spot things like "dilated pupils" and other signs that our training has taken a wrong turn somewhere and a cue has become associated with an emotion that won't help the situation. You don't want to bring in baggage that will be amplified under tension when you have dogs together.

I agree with Aidan on some points with ECollar redirected aggression which can occur when not using a high enough stimulation level or poor stimulation from a low quality collar, but redirection is generally based upon the temperament of the individual dog, the harder the dog, the more likelyhood of burning through a stimulation, but a softer dog will shut down in it's tracks with a good stim. Theory says as Aidan has explained, the Ecollar is met with caution dealing with aggression issues, but in reality I have seen only one dog burn through a stimulation for a short period and was an extremely hard and aggressive working line GSD. Having said that, I wouldn't practice with an Ecollar with aggression unless the dogs were either restrained or muzzled to see the effects of an aversive stimulation and preferably done with experienced supervision.

Aidan, out of interest, your comment that an Ecollar is virtually useless when dogs have committed to a fight, is that from personal experience Ecollar training or something that you have been told or read???

Edited December 30, 2010 by abed

[Aidan3]

I agree with Aidan on some points with ECollar redirected aggression which can occur when not using a high enough stimulation level or poor stimulation from a low quality collar

Abed, it pays to remember that these dogs must live together day by day for the rest of their lives. If we're getting to the point where we would need to ramp up the stim to stop dogs eyeing each other off then we're doing something wrong and taking some unreasonable (IMHO) risks. You would want to be very confident that any punishments were well understood by the dog (and we don't know what the dog is thinking nor how many times the lesson will need to be repeated) and permanently remembered, or you're heading very fast down a one-way path. Ultimately we're trying to have the dogs comfortable together, and this is difficult to achieve when the only reason they don't fight today is fear of shock.

In any case, I was referring to redirected aggression in the course of normal manners training. The sort you would do with low stim. If there is any uncertainty or tension (and there is always some if a dog is receiving a correction), add that to a bit of tension between two or more dogs, and you have a recipe for redirected aggression.

So far, the dogs in question have not fought and I think it's best to keep it that way.

Having said that, I wouldn't practice with an Ecollar with aggression unless the dogs were either restrained or muzzled to see the effects of an aversive stimulation and preferably done with experienced supervision.

Classical Conditioning occurs regardless of muzzle or restraint, and for most people is hard to spot until it's too late.

To answer your question, on the now rare occasion that I need to break up a dog fight I grab them by the back legs. I've never been in a position where I've had e-collars on two dogs who were fighting because I would have no use for an e-collar in that situation. The opinion I gave was shared by others who have tried this. No doubt it depends on the temperament of the dog but you can be sure that if you say "it may or may not work for you" on an internet forum, someone is going to try it and fail. By then the damage is done.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Aidan2

[MissMaddy]

Thanks for the replies here guys, they've been very helpful (and please keep them coming!).

Aiden, yes I am aware of the different methods of training with the e-collar. My bitch is trained with the negative reinforcement method, whereby she knows how to turn the collar off (obeying a command), which I did through Steve (K9pro) on here. I have used it on her around other dogs before, and I don't use it as a punishment tool. I was planning on doing the same with both the other 2 dogs (the male as well), starting like I did with the GSD bitch, at as little distraction as possible, then working up until they are collar savvy, and realise they can switch it off even under high distraction (e.g. running together).

These dogs are never together unless supervised (including the male), and the rules have become a lot tougher since I started worrying about the bitches together. Interestingly enough, while I was watching the other day, the rotty bitch yelped while near the GSD bitch (they actually weren't really interacting, the GSD was sniffing something else), and then got wary of her (I think the GSD stood on her foot or something, as there was no correction unless it was a VERY subtle one). She's now become the submissive, playful puppy she's been since she came here, and there has been no more of the behaviour I was worried about. I am, however, a lot tougher on their interactions, rough play is no longer tolerated, and I expect them to all give each other space and not be in each other's faces, which is what seems to annoy the GSD bitch.

I do have help coming, as the rotty's breeder is herself very experienced in dog training and dog behaviour, so I will be getting a visit from her on the weekend, and will be trying to determine the best person to go to elsewhere from there. I am concerned, though, that taking them out of their home environment would probably change their behaviour in general and towards one another, so may not be particularly worthwhile doing.

[Aidan3]

I am concerned, though, that taking them out of their home environment would probably change their behaviour in general and towards one another, so may not be particularly worthwhile doing.

You are right, it almost always does. You were worried about your leadership style, and even though a person's behaviour changes outside the home too, it's usually the things the owner is unaware of or thinks is a good thing to do even though it may not be that we look for.

Does Steve do video consults?

nd I expect them to all give each other space and not be in each other's faces, which is what seems to annoy the GSD bitch

Sign of a good leader, picking up on the subtle stuff and managing it. Look for opportunities to reward polite behaviour from your Rottie, especially respect for your GSD bitch's space.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Aidan2

[beagie]

Ok, so I thought I was doing pretty well, but my dogs have given me the impression I'm not doing as well as I thought.

I have recently added a rottie bitch to my existing 2 GSDs (over a month ago), so I now have 3 dogs; a 4yo GSD bitch, a 1yo GSD male and an 8 month old rottie bitch. All of them are entire as I show.

The bitches have started showing me signs that a fight may happen in the future, and I want to make sure it doesn't happen, EVER! I'm wanting some tips to re-establish myself as the one who says who can do what and when, and it's not one of them!

I already make sure the GSD bitch comes in through doorways first (after me of course), eats first, etc, as she is currently the one who is the boss, however she's no a truly dominant bitch, so this may change. I honestly don't care who sits where, but I don't want fights over it, as I control the resources around here, so a fight will not change that.

I'm near Bendigo, so we have a severe shortage of qualified behaviourists. I'll probably be driving to see one shortly, but I'm not sure the same behaviour would show away from home. Until then, what are some little things I can do to make sure they know I say what goes? As I said, I thought I was, but the dogs are telling me otherwise.

I will throw in my two cents worth, I have three males intact, I have never had fights with my males, however

I had plenty with females, I have a no of friends who will tell you the same. I don't think it is about eating first who goes through anywhere first, it is about the personalities of the dogs and you how they live etc. You don't need to be a control freak, you need to be placid and easy to get on with if there is peace an harmony in your

house your dogs will reflect that. Males fight because they have to for one reason or another females fight because they are just plain cussed the same in the human world Beagie

[abed]

I agree with Aidan on some points with ECollar redirected aggression which can occur when not using a high enough stimulation level or poor stimulation from a low quality collar

Abed, it pays to remember that these dogs must live together day by day for the rest of their lives. If we're getting to the point where we would need to ramp up the stim to stop dogs eyeing each other off then we're doing something wrong and taking some unreasonable (IMHO) risks. You would want to be very confident that any punishments were well understood by the dog (and we don't know what the dog is thinking nor how many times the lesson will need to be repeated) and permanently remembered, or you're heading very fast down a one-way path. Ultimately we're trying to have the dogs comfortable together, and this is difficult to achieve when the only reason they don't fight today is fear of shock.

In any case, I was referring to redirected aggression in the course of normal manners training. The sort you would do with low stim. If there is any uncertainty or tension (and there is always some if a dog is receiving a correction), add that to a bit of tension between two or more dogs, and you have a recipe for redirected aggression.

So far, the dogs in question have not fought and I think it's best to keep it that way.

Having said that, I wouldn't practice with an Ecollar with aggression unless the dogs were either restrained or muzzled to see the effects of an aversive stimulation and preferably done with experienced supervision.

Classical Conditioning occurs regardless of muzzle or restraint, and for most people is hard to spot until it's too late.

To answer your question, on the now rare occasion that I need to break up a dog fight I grab them by the back legs. I've never been in a position where I've had e-collars on two dogs who were fighting because I would have no use for an e-collar in that situation. The opinion I gave was shared by others who have tried this. No doubt it depends on the temperament of the dog but you can be sure that if you say "it may or may not work for you" on an internet forum, someone is going to try it and fail. By then the damage is done.

Aidan, if dogs are eyeballing each other with body language of a potentially aggressive stance wearing Ecollars, low stim is what agitates the dog that can easily trigger a fight and you either don't use the E or give a high stim nick. To give a low stim constant in that mindset is a good chance a fight will develop where I wouldn't take that chance personally. If there is aggression surfacing and you want to work the dogs a bit together in some training especially with an E, a muzzle is standard fitment from my box to prevent injury should a fight develop or any redirection that may occur in the process.

An E collar will stop a fight faster than grabbing a dogs back legs, but would be better to knock the behaviour off before it reached that level.

[corvus]

Knocking the behaviour off before it reaches a fight still requires a level of consistency that may be difficult to meet, no matter what method or tool you use. I'd far rather identify just why the tension exists in the first place and attempt to treat that, although I am happy to admit it's hard to treat competition in a dog that perceives competition everywhere. That's why I have a rule to avoid putting more than one dog of the same sex and size in my house at once. I guess I'm paranoid.

[Miranda]

If you're going to get trouble between entire bitches they are much more likely to occur in the weeks leading up to a season, as your rotti bitch is approaching eight months she is more than likely coming up to her first season hence the increased tension between them. An older bitch may also become much more dominant around a puppy bitch when she senses the younger dog is approaching sexual maturity.

In my experience running some entire bitches together can be problematic regardless of how good a leader you are and I certainly wouldn't rely on strong leadership preventing an altercation. A fight can start in a fraction of a second and even if you're extremely vigilant the chances of you stopping a fight before it starts are minimal, any fight I've had has come out of nowhere, one second all is calm and the next second they're fighting. No posturing, no eyeballing, just two dogs standing together doing nothing and then.....wham! I don't own a particularly dominant breed, but the few fights I've had between bitches have been full on and luckily my partner was there at the same time because had I been on my own I wouldn't have had a hope of breaking them up. A scuffle between males I can handle, but bitches are a different story.

I've run up to eleven entire dogs and bitches at the same time and like most breeders I've occasionally owned two dogs that cannot be trusted together and in that case the easiest solution for all concerned is separation.

[Aidan3]

If there is aggression surfacing and you want to work the dogs a bit together in some training especially with an E, a muzzle is standard fitment from my box to prevent injury should a fight develop or any redirection that may occur in the process.

I wouldn't let them get that far, but that's my preference.

An E collar will stop a fight faster than grabbing a dogs back legs, but would be better to knock the behaviour off before it reached that level.

Two dogs, both wearing collars, one handler, both remotes to hand... let's say a good blast is enough to break off the fight, then what? Sorry, I just wouldn't attempt it myself so I don't know how it pans out, nor would I want to find out (let alone suggest it to someone else).

[abed]

If there is aggression surfacing and you want to work the dogs a bit together in some training especially with an E, a muzzle is standard fitment from my box to prevent injury should a fight develop or any redirection that may occur in the process.

I wouldn't let them get that far, but that's my preference.

An E collar will stop a fight faster than grabbing a dogs back legs, but would be better to knock the behaviour off before it reached that level.

Two dogs, both wearing collars, one handler, both remotes to hand... let's say a good blast is enough to break off the fight, then what? Sorry, I just wouldn't attempt it myself so I don't know how it pans out, nor would I want to find out (let alone suggest it to someone else).

My own collar is a 2 dog system with one remote, but as I mentioned before, you need a good quality collar IMHO for any Ecollar training. Chasing dogs around in a scruff is hard to grab their back legs quickly and is not as easy as it sounds especially for smaller people with large dogs. The E will break the fight as you can only grab one dog by the back legs whilst the other remains loose and still at it. With a high output collar, the dogs will surrender in submission, not pretty, but nicer than ears missing and the necessity to race injured dogs to the vet or worse I guess.

I don't understand which appears as a muzzle objection Aidan???. I am coming from the stance that even with conditioning and introducing known aggressors back into closer proximity, I muzzle them as insurance. I wouldn't regardless of the rehabilitation I thought I had achieved, allow them to run around together without precautions until I was confident that the training to curb the aggression was successful, and then would be strictly supervised.

[abed]

Thanks for the replies here guys, they've been very helpful (and please keep them coming!).

Aiden, yes I am aware of the different methods of training with the e-collar. My bitch is trained with the negative reinforcement method, whereby she knows how to turn the collar off (obeying a command), which I did through Steve (K9pro) on here. I have used it on her around other dogs before, and I don't use it as a punishment tool. I was planning on doing the same with both the other 2 dogs (the male as well), starting like I did with the GSD bitch, at as little distraction as possible, then working up until they are collar savvy, and realise they can switch it off even under high distraction (e.g. running together).

These dogs are never together unless supervised (including the male), and the rules have become a lot tougher since I started worrying about the bitches together. Interestingly enough, while I was watching the other day, the rotty bitch yelped while near the GSD bitch (they actually weren't really interacting, the GSD was sniffing something else), and then got wary of her (I think the GSD stood on her foot or something, as there was no correction unless it was a VERY subtle one). She's now become the submissive, playful puppy she's been since she came here, and there has been no more of the behaviour I was worried about. I am, however, a lot tougher on their interactions, rough play is no longer tolerated, and I expect them to all give each other space and not be in each other's faces, which is what seems to annoy the GSD bitch.

I do have help coming, as the rotty's breeder is herself very experienced in dog training and dog behaviour, so I will be getting a visit from her on the weekend, and will be trying to determine the best person to go to elsewhere from there. I am concerned, though, that taking them out of their home environment would probably change their behaviour in general and towards one another, so may not be particularly worthwhile doing.

Hi MissMaddy,

I am not a fan of escape training with an Ecollar as IMHO it's unfair on the dog as it's essentially correcting the dog before the dog has the chance to obey a command. It's like to me as a collar correction with a leash simultaneously on a sit command each time which is not drive training, it's avoidance training as the motivator, but each to their own on that one???.

Considering you are experienced with the Ecollar, I would nick the offending dog with high level stim after a NO command if eyeballing instigated an aggressive posture to teach the dog that the stim comes from you, and that behaviour is not tolorated. Working dogs are hard enough in most cases to understand punishment and boundaries without adverse effects. I have 3 entire male GSD's, a showline, a show/working mix and a working line who run together all day. I have had posturing and scruffs in the past with Ecollar training correcting the behaviour entirely. The working line dog although he is the least aggressive to instigate a fight, he is the most aggressive to finish one, so he is separated or crated without supervison like if we are not home.

Using the Ecollar in escape training for aggressive postures on low stim can trigger a fight by drive agitation much like a prong collar and IMHO a stim needs to be sharp and fast to take drive away from the dog and cause a submission to the behaviour. It doesn't matter if the dog tucks it's tail and shuts down a bit and the importance is knowing the stim came from you on the basis if they want to start fights, they fight you and they loose as the consequence. There is nothing wrong with a dog fearing consequence from aggressive behaviour which is the only reliable method in rehabiliation of handler aggression where the consequence of failure for the handler is getting bitten.

Bitches can be a pain in the butt and can hold grudges far more than males which probably adds to increased vigilance unfortunately.

Edited December 31, 2010 by abed

[abed]

If you're going to get trouble between entire bitches they are much more likely to occur in the weeks leading up to a season, as your rotti bitch is approaching eight months she is more than likely coming up to her first season hence the increased tension between them. An older bitch may also become much more dominant around a puppy bitch when she senses the younger dog is approaching sexual maturity.

In my experience running some entire bitches together can be problematic regardless of how good a leader you are and I certainly wouldn't rely on strong leadership preventing an altercation. A fight can start in a fraction of a second and even if you're extremely vigilant the chances of you stopping a fight before it starts are minimal, any fight I've had has come out of nowhere, one second all is calm and the next second they're fighting. No posturing, no eyeballing, just two dogs standing together doing nothing and then.....wham! I don't own a particularly dominant breed, but the few fights I've had between bitches have been full on and luckily my partner was there at the same time because had I been on my own I wouldn't have had a hope of breaking them up. A scuffle between males I can handle, but bitches are a different story.

I've run up to eleven entire dogs and bitches at the same time and like most breeders I've occasionally owned two dogs that cannot be trusted together and in that case the easiest solution for all concerned is separation.

Yes, I agree Miranda, nice informative post :D