Um Isnt Showing A Desexed Bitch Wrong?

[oakway]

I don't have a problem with desexed animals being shown, but I do raise issue with rules being broken. Rules are there for consistency and fairness, and when they are not followed or enforced then fairness is compromised.

If we agree that the conformation ring is for assessing breeding stock, and we are nostalgic enough to believe this purpose should be continued, then we should consider:

1) That desexed animals could have already been bred from (i.e. desexed after litters), so they are still contributing to the breed.

2) Animals that are desexed have parents, and maybe siblings, that are entire who contribute to the breed. These desexed animals are an indicator of the breeding line, despite the fact of being desexed themselves.

3) Entire animals shown are not all bred from, so entire animals are not always breeding stock themselves.

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

Sorry I can't agree that we show our dogs to have them assessed as breeding stock.

We show our dogs to see how judges think they comform to the standard.

I can blow that theory out of the water.

How many times do you see our top winning dogs/bitch's in their own breed never produce much to go on with, but the brother or sister that stayed at home because they could never beat their brother/sister go on to be our top producing stock.

I think you misunderstood my post.

... I said, "I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock."

If i misunderstood your post my apologies.

[Sheridan]

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

I agree with this, but also have to say that I, as an exhibitor and observer, use the showring for assessing breeding stock - not my own, but others... looking at lines and patterns etc... I don't tend to look at what is winning in the ring, only what i think would work for me if i am on the lookout for a new dog or a potential mating...however, this could just as easily be done by also looking at desexed progeny, and actually would open up a whole new world of showing because we'd be seeing more than one or two of the puppies etc. I agree, it's time to move past it, because you can look at desexed stuff and it can help you (plus maybe it would increase show numbers?) if you do use the show ring to assess breed stock.

Wouldn't that be a rather limited assessment unless someone shows right around Australia, which most people don't? You can see from other threads that some people only show in their own area, some people won't show in Sydney because people are rude, some won't show elsewhere because of this, that and the other. Most people don't travel much to show, which makes using the show ring for assessing breeding stock a somewhat limited way to do it.

[oakway]

You know, the only way I have found how to access breeding stock, is to breed with it.

[peaceful]

I agree that cheating IS cheating whichever way you look at it, IT IS still cheating and lying!

Are these the kind of people you would want to go to for a stud dog or a puppy? I dont think so!

I also think that the best way to assess possible stud dogs for your own bitches is to go to as many specialties as you can afford to go to to see the largest representations of any given breed, that is if your breed has a specialty.

[Andisa]

I agree that cheating IS cheating whichever way you look at it, IT IS still cheating and lying!

Are these the kind of people you would want to go to for a stud dog or a puppy? I dont think so!

I also think that the best way to assess possible stud dogs for your own bitches is to go to as many specialties as you can afford to go to to see the largest representations of any given breed, that is if your breed has a specialty.

Agree totally

[whippets]

You know, the only way I have found how to access breeding stock, is to breed with it.

yeah thats right lol.

[SparkyTansy]

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

I agree with this, but also have to say that I, as an exhibitor and observer, use the showring for assessing breeding stock - not my own, but others... looking at lines and patterns etc... I don't tend to look at what is winning in the ring, only what i think would work for me if i am on the lookout for a new dog or a potential mating...however, this could just as easily be done by also looking at desexed progeny, and actually would open up a whole new world of showing because we'd be seeing more than one or two of the puppies etc. I agree, it's time to move past it, because you can look at desexed stuff and it can help you (plus maybe it would increase show numbers?) if you do use the show ring to assess breed stock.

Wouldn't that be a rather limited assessment unless someone shows right around Australia, which most people don't? You can see from other threads that some people only show in their own area, some people won't show in Sydney because people are rude, some won't show elsewhere because of this, that and the other. Most people don't travel much to show, which makes using the show ring for assessing breeding stock a somewhat limited way to do it.

true, unless you are willing to travel you won't see that much... but I suppose that it's a general make up of various things... i'm not saying I use shows as the only way of assessing breeding stock, but that it is part of what i use. I chose the stud dog for my bitch at the national weimaraner specialty last May. he has since gone on to produce several litters for other kennels and i am using what he produces as an additional assessment tool.

Sheridan if you didn't want to use the show ring to assess breed stock, how would you go about finding a stud dog?

[whippets]

Found out they are showing to get the bitches grand title..bitch has been desexed..isnt that hugely UNETHICAL????

Given other things that go on in the dog world, I could care less that someone is showing a desexed dog....big deal.

so you would trust these people, you would buy a puppy off them? they lie, they probably lie about doing health tests and who knows what else.

I hear what you are saying as in other things that go on, but surely that doesn't mean we just turn a blind eye to everything and let everyone cheat, thats not the way to do it!! If people had spoken up or complained earlier, maybe there would not be the problems now that you are referring to.

If anyone knows things are not as they seem they should speak up or lodge a complaint.

And just for the record it is a big deal, they are lying and cheating.

Everytime someone artificially enhances their dog they are also breaking the rules. Is that right? that could include any products that mask (chalk) put on a dog or giving a dog those bush essences or rescue remedy to settle them for shows. If you are going to be a stickler for rules then do so in it's entirety and not pick and choose.

P.S. "these people" probably drive 5 clicks over the speed limit as well.

Edited January 4, 2011 by whippets

[Sheridan]

Wouldn't that be a rather limited assessment unless someone shows right around Australia, which most people don't? You can see from other threads that some people only show in their own area, some people won't show in Sydney because people are rude, some won't show elsewhere because of this, that and the other. Most people don't travel much to show, which makes using the show ring for assessing breeding stock a somewhat limited way to do it.

true, unless you are willing to travel you won't see that much... but I suppose that it's a general make up of various things... i'm not saying I use shows as the only way of assessing breeding stock, but that it is part of what i use. I chose the stud dog for my bitch at the national weimaraner specialty last May. he has since gone on to produce several litters for other kennels and i am using what he produces as an additional assessment tool.

Sheridan if you didn't want to use the show ring to assess breed stock, how would you go about finding a stud dog?

In wheatens, there's so few people, most know each other and their dogs. It's probably the same for a lot of breeds. Don't know what happens in the breeds with large numbers.

[Bokezu]

Found out they are showing to get the bitches grand title..bitch has been desexed..isnt that hugely UNETHICAL????

Given other things that go on in the dog world, I could care less that someone is showing a desexed dog....big deal.

so you would trust these people, you would buy a puppy off them? they lie, they probably lie about doing health tests and who knows what else.

I hear what you are saying as in other things that go on, but surely that doesn't mean we just turn a blind eye to everything and let everyone cheat, thats not the way to do it!! If people had spoken up or complained earlier, maybe there would not be the problems now that you are referring to.

If anyone knows things are not as they seem they should speak up or lodge a complaint.

And just for the record it is a big deal, they are lying and cheating.

Everytime someone artificially enhances their dog they are also breaking the rules. Is that right? that could include any products that mask (chalk) put on a dog or giving a dog those bush essences or rescue remedy to settle them for shows. If you are going to be a stickler for rules then do so in it's entirety and not pick and choose.

P.S. "these people" probably drive 5 clicks over the speed limit as well.

I'm not a stickler for anything, but don't like cheats, not picking and choosing a cheat is a cheat.

[SparkyTansy]

Wouldn't that be a rather limited assessment unless someone shows right around Australia, which most people don't? You can see from other threads that some people only show in their own area, some people won't show in Sydney because people are rude, some won't show elsewhere because of this, that and the other. Most people don't travel much to show, which makes using the show ring for assessing breeding stock a somewhat limited way to do it.

true, unless you are willing to travel you won't see that much... but I suppose that it's a general make up of various things... i'm not saying I use shows as the only way of assessing breeding stock, but that it is part of what i use. I chose the stud dog for my bitch at the national weimaraner specialty last May. he has since gone on to produce several litters for other kennels and i am using what he produces as an additional assessment tool.

Sheridan if you didn't want to use the show ring to assess breed stock, how would you go about finding a stud dog?

In wheatens, there's so few people, most know each other and their dogs. It's probably the same for a lot of breeds. Don't know what happens in the breeds with large numbers.

Yes but how would you go about picking a stud dog?

[RallyValley]

Wouldn't that be a rather limited assessment unless someone shows right around Australia, which most people don't? You can see from other threads that some people only show in their own area, some people won't show in Sydney because people are rude, some won't show elsewhere because of this, that and the other. Most people don't travel much to show, which makes using the show ring for assessing breeding stock a somewhat limited way to do it.

true, unless you are willing to travel you won't see that much... but I suppose that it's a general make up of various things... i'm not saying I use shows as the only way of assessing breeding stock, but that it is part of what i use. I chose the stud dog for my bitch at the national weimaraner specialty last May. he has since gone on to produce several litters for other kennels and i am using what he produces as an additional assessment tool.

Sheridan if you didn't want to use the show ring to assess breed stock, how would you go about finding a stud dog?

In wheatens, there's so few people, most know each other and their dogs. It's probably the same for a lot of breeds. Don't know what happens in the breeds with large numbers.

Yes but how would you go about picking a stud dog?

By the owners then?

I agree with you btw, especially national specialtys. :D

[fbc]

I can acknowledge that some breeds would have issues in this but in Group 2, who'd miss a few rabbits or mice?

Well Im laughing my Staffords do a great job at keeping the rat population down.

Wish I could claim bonus points on this in the ring lol

For the record I dont think desexed animals should be shown outside of neuter classes.

Dunno about other breeds but our standard states that males must have 2 decended testees obviously showing they are entire so I would presume if a male has to be entire the same rules apply for a bitch.

Definately agree with including neuter classes at more shows.

[angelsun]

I agree that some of the best producers are plain and in many ways, can't attain a title because of their flashy sibling that competes regularly against them, however the question simply is...if this top producer does in fact produce, who decided? It wasn't the judge was it?

This goes into what I have ALWAYS said....no judge or series of judges will determine for me, where my breeding program goes or who I use.

Titles are NOT required to breed a dog and therefore we do this show thing as a hobby if you will for the glory of our own egos. The dogs don't care...they get fed anyway, win or lose (for the most part)

If we are not however judging breeding potential, why take the offspring of a plain dog/bitch into the ring, unless we are aiming to show that the exhibit meets the breed standard. If the exhibit meets the breed standard and is agreed by a number of judges which hand out challenges and invisible points, then the owner/breeder probably will continue to incorporate the exhibit in the breeding program or allow others to do so, in the case of the stud dog.

By exhibiting in shows, we agree when we sign our entries to abide by the rules set out by the canine councils. One of these rules concerns exhibiting desexed animals, therefore the one that signed the entry, has not only lied about the condition of the exhibit they are showing, but is breaking the rules that are laid out for everyone to abide by.

The rules are there and apply to everyone. I realize there are always "special" people out there that think the rules do not apply to them, however they are wrong...the sooner they are outted the better as far as I'm concerned.

[Bokezu]

Well said angelsun my thoughts exactly

[Mystiqview]

I have no problem of a desexed animal being shown. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it is judging the breed standard, not the breeding capability of the animal.

How many dogs/bitches out there cannot produce naturally or properly?

How many animals have unacceptable hip/elbow scores, or some other major health issue that cannot be detected by observation?

How many whole animals do not REALLY conform to the breed standard and still get their CH? (Petrol title or Face judging)?

How many have fixed tails, jaws, have dogs with OCD, ED and HD and then go onto breed those animals.. But wait.. They are whole and have the CH?

Surely these animals REALLY do not fit into the category of "Showing dogs" to "better the breed".

Showing is a SPORT, just like any other Sport. Some are there to only be in it to win it.

I know its rules and all that. But really.. If the desexed animal is conforming to the breed standard.. well.. again like what someone else has pointed out.. Is minor when you consider what else goes on in some breeder's back yards.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I know its rules and all that. But really.. If the desexed animal is conforming to the breed standard.. well.. again like what someone else has pointed out.. Is minor when you consider what else goes on in some breeder's back yards.

OK, say you're showing an entire coated bitch and you are regularly up against an exhibitor who is showing a desexed bitch of the same breed in the entire classes. Your bitch has a season and drops coat every 8-9 months putting her out of the ring or out of strong contention for a significant portion of the year. Theirs never has a season and never drops coat, and is beating you in the breed and DOL pointscore because it's out every weekend looking gorgeous. How do you feel about it then?

[RallyValley]

Don't many dogs get awful spay coats?

[Mystiqview]

I have no problems being beaten by a GOOD dog that meets the standard.

As I would not be showing a bitch with dropped coat, it is really a moot point as I would not be up against it when mine are out of coat.

It is also good to have a break now and again and do other things with my life. It is a hobby and a sport after all. All sports have "seasons".

As one of my bitches comes into season every 4 months.. it is part and parcel of showing. She is a pain to show that way.. but that's life.

ETA: Who really cares about the DOL Point Score anyway?? Especially when you hear comments from one judge who was away from their normal turf say "Just wait a minute, while I check the leader board so I know who to put up?"

Edited January 4, 2011 by Mystiqview

[Sheridan]

true, unless you are willing to travel you won't see that much... but I suppose that it's a general make up of various things... i'm not saying I use shows as the only way of assessing breeding stock, but that it is part of what i use. I chose the stud dog for my bitch at the national weimaraner specialty last May. he has since gone on to produce several litters for other kennels and i am using what he produces as an additional assessment tool.

Sheridan if you didn't want to use the show ring to assess breed stock, how would you go about finding a stud dog?

In wheatens, there's so few people, most know each other and their dogs. It's probably the same for a lot of breeds. Don't know what happens in the breeds with large numbers.

Yes but how would you go about picking a stud dog?

Perhaps I'd best explain that there are very few wheatens being shown so there's not a hell of a lot of point in going to a show to choose a stud dog. I know of four being shown across Australia. There may be some elsewhere but no one post results here or on the wheaten lists.

I would examine the pedigrees as I have very specific requirements, the main one being that there must be no PLE/PLN in the pedigree. I've had a dog die of it and I wouldn't be so reckless as to pass it on. One of the other requirements is a correct coat, which means that I'm unlikely to have a dog with American or English dogs in the background unless there is a line with correct coats. I want a correct length of back and height, which also rules out many American dogs since they're beginning to look like blonde kerries. There are other things but in short, I want a dog that looks like this:

Edited January 4, 2011 by Sheridan