Um Isnt Showing A Desexed Bitch Wrong?

[brightonrock]

I WAS BEING A SMARTARSE. Devil's Advocate of a kind. I know this. We have CECS in our breed - a disease thats very existence is debated or denied, there is no testing and the symptoms can be varied and many.

My point was- if conformation shows are only about exhibiting eligible breeding stock, then our shows would be a lot smaller.

If a health condition is not identifiable with tests or even dignified with a medically recognised term or name then there is no point in making generalisations about the Breed. If you do then SP you have to accept your breeding stock is in theory as affected as the exhibitor next to you.

I just love how these topics travel from the original post, and yes, I agree showing a Desexed Bitch is wrong because there is absolutely no chance of breeding from her and getting a pup out of her. If exhibitors enter their neuter bitches they should be fined.

Where did I make generalizations about the breed? I believe we have a problem with our dogs but many bury their heads in the sand and deny it. There is costly research being carried out to find a genetic marker for the disorder. Canine Epileptiod Cramping Syndrome is the name or Spike's Disease. But unfortunately many vets (out of curiosity i have questioned 4 GP vets and only one had heard of it and this was one who jad done a lot of work in the UK and knew the breed) especially in Australia don't know of it or put the cramping down to epilepsy or generic fitting conditions. I have never claimed my lines to be free from it - all I can and do say is my dogs have never shown any symptoms which is the truth.

There are some CAE affected dogs in the show ring and I often wonder if they have a place out there but I always come back to the same answer - yep they do. To me, my definition, is a dog show is a beauty contest judged day to day against the breed standards and the inner health of the animal has nothing to do with this. I believe the breeding stock argument is long gone. Especially with the number of 'exhibitor only' people who enjoy toddling along for the day out. I see it as an activity, not a marketplace as it once was.

As CECS is not identified with a genetic marker then you are looking at a large range of symptoms that maybe similar and putting a layman's name to it - CECS or Spike's disease. As far as I have heard research is at a standstill.

Your comment about afflicted dogs in the showring needs to be backed with evidence otherwise it is mere gossip.

[Crisovar]

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

Dog shows don't assess whether or not a dog can do the job for which it was bred; they're judged on running around a little ring. It might give an idea of movement but not of breeding potential.

I disagree, for a dog to function in its original capacity they need the structure and soundness dictated in the breeds standard, that most certainly should be what is being judged. Judging against the blueprint for the breed is nothing to be scoffed at.

I certainly have used the show ring as a place to look and assess, it is a useful tool, although not the only one, judging dogs against the standard is a key piece of the puzzle.

[Parkeyre]

Re: CEA Affected dogs in rings..

Here in SA; there is a lovely bitch who is a ch. who is CEA affected.

I still think she still deserves to be allowed to be shown.

Breeding CEA affected dogs is much different to showing them.

[LizT]

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

Dog shows don't assess whether or not a dog can do the job for which it was bred; they're judged on running around a little ring. It might give an idea of movement but not of breeding potential.

If Cavaliers were judged on what they were bred to do you'd need to put a couch or at least a comfy armchair in the middle of the ring.

[Sheridan]

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

Dog shows don't assess whether or not a dog can do the job for which it was bred; they're judged on running around a little ring. It might give an idea of movement but not of breeding potential.

I disagree, for a dog to function in its original capacity they need the structure and soundness dictated in the breeds standard, that most certainly should be what is being judged. Judging against the blueprint for the breed is nothing to be scoffed at.

I certainly have used the show ring as a place to look and assess, it is a useful tool, although not the only one, judging dogs against the standard is a key piece of the puzzle.

Wouldn't you get a better idea of structure and soundness if your breed was doing the job for which it was bred?

If Cavaliers were judged on what they were bred to do you'd need to put a couch or at least a comfy armchair in the middle of the ring.

Precisely.

[Crisovar]

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

Dog shows don't assess whether or not a dog can do the job for which it was bred; they're judged on running around a little ring. It might give an idea of movement but not of breeding potential.

I disagree, for a dog to function in its original capacity they need the structure and soundness dictated in the breeds standard, that most certainly should be what is being judged. Judging against the blueprint for the breed is nothing to be scoffed at.

I certainly have used the show ring as a place to look and assess, it is a useful tool, although not the only one, judging dogs against the standard is a key piece of the puzzle.

Wouldn't you get a better idea of structure and soundness if your breed was doing the job for which it was bred?

If Cavaliers were judged on what they were bred to do you'd need to put a couch or at least a comfy armchair in the middle of the ring. :D

Precisely.

If you have access to those things sure, but the show ring is still a very valuable tool, IMO you can learn a hell of a lot by sitting ringside watching the dogs, looking at the progeny of sires and bitches, it all adds up. It is certainly in no shape or form useless. When was the last time you watched a pack of Wheatens or Kerries in action.

[Bullbreedlover]

Wouldn't you get a better idea of structure and soundness if your breed was doing the job for which it was bred?

Bullbaiting is illegal.

Bullmastiffs attacking poachers would be frowned upon these days.

So I guess it is the show ring then

[Sheridan]

Wouldn't you get a better idea of structure and soundness if your breed was doing the job for which it was bred?

Bullbaiting is illegal.

Bullmastiffs attacking poachers would be frowned upon these days.

So I guess it is the show ring then

I can acknowledge that some breeds would have issues in this but in Group 2, who'd miss a few rabbits or mice?

[Andisa]

Wouldn't you get a better idea of structure and soundness if your breed was doing the job for which it was bred?

Bullbaiting is illegal.

Bullmastiffs attacking poachers would be frowned upon these days.

So I guess it is the show ring then

I can acknowledge that some breeds would have issues in this but in Group 2, who'd miss a few rabbits or mice?

You would have the animal libers got off their faces over that one. :D

[Sayly]

Re: CEA Affected dogs in rings..

Here in SA; there is a lovely bitch who is a ch. who is CEA affected.

I still think she still deserves to be allowed to be shown.

Breeding CEA affected dogs is much different to showing them.

I'll put my hand up and say this is one of my bitches (passed puppy eye test but DNA affected, no obvious signs). I'm sure there are others (tested and untested) too, but many don't make it public. Same as HC affected dogs in the ring, I've heard about plenty!

I'd rather DNA test and know what I have than stick my head in the sand.

I show because I enjoy it and it's the best way for me to learn. I learn more about the breed at shows and talking to breeders and other showies (within my breed and others) at shows than reading about them. If I wasn't showing I wouldn't be getting up at 5am to spend my day talking about lines, faults and conformation. By showing said bitch I am improving my understanding of the breed and structure, which will (eventually) make me a better breeder. I don't plan on breeding any time soon, I'm happy to sit back, show my girls and learn as much as I can.

My bitch's success in the ring meant another DOLer became interested in her lines and ended up taking a bitch pup from my girl's dam (after DNA testing her and breeding to a DNA clear dog), that bitch is CEA clear (as well as for everything else) and has been just as, if not more successful than my girl. She will be bred from with the aim to improve the breed. Had it not been for my girl in the ring, she would have been pet homed and never bred from.

I wouldn't show a desexed bitch as it is against the rules. But it isn't against the rules to show my girl, so I will continue to do so and learn as I do it. It doesn't give her an advantage in the ring (that a desexed bitch can have due to coat, no seasons) and everyone in my state who show know her DNA status. ETA: Her DNA status was also put on an Australian breed specific email list so many interstate breeders also know.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Lyndsay

[LizT]

Re: CEA Affected dogs in rings..

Here in SA; there is a lovely bitch who is a ch. who is CEA affected.

I still think she still deserves to be allowed to be shown.

Breeding CEA affected dogs is much different to showing them.

I'll put my hand up and say this is one of my bitches (passed puppy eye test but DNA affected, no obvious signs). I'm sure there are others (tested and untested) too, but many don't make it public. Same as HC affected dogs in the ring, I've heard about plenty!

I'd rather DNA test and know what I have than stick my head in the sand.

I show because I enjoy it and it's the best way for me to learn. I learn more about the breed at shows and talking to breeders and other showies (within my breed and others) at shows than reading about them. If I wasn't showing I wouldn't be getting up at 5am to spend my day talking about lines, faults and conformation. By showing said bitch I am improving my understanding of the breed and structure, which will (eventually) make me a better breeder. I don't plan on breeding any time soon, I'm happy to sit back, show my girls and learn as much as I can.

My bitch's success in the ring meant another DOLer became interested in her lines and ended up taking a bitch pup from my girl's dam (after DNA testing her and breeding to a DNA clear dog), that bitch is CEA clear (as well as for everything else) and has been just as, if not more successful than my girl. She will be bred from with the aim to improve the breed. Had it not been for my girl in the ring, she would have been pet homed and never bred from.

I wouldn't show a desexed bitch as it is against the rules. But it isn't against the rules to show my girl, so I will continue to do so and learn as I do it. It doesn't give her an advantage in the ring (that a desexed bitch can have due to coat, no seasons) and everyone in my state who show know her DNA status. ETA: Her DNA status was also put on an Australian breed specific email list so many interstate breeders also know.

I think there is certainly merit in what you have done and how you have done it. No issue there IMO.

Edited January 3, 2011 by LizT

[Parkeyre]

Re: CEA Affected dogs in rings..

Here in SA; there is a lovely bitch who is a ch. who is CEA affected.

I still think she still deserves to be allowed to be shown.

Breeding CEA affected dogs is much different to showing them.

I'll put my hand up and say this is one of my bitches (passed puppy eye test but DNA affected, no obvious signs). I'm sure there are others (tested and untested) too, but many don't make it public. Same as HC affected dogs in the ring, I've heard about plenty!

I'd rather DNA test and know what I have than stick my head in the sand.

I show because I enjoy it and it's the best way for me to learn. I learn more about the breed at shows and talking to breeders and other showies (within my breed and others) at shows than reading about them. If I wasn't showing I wouldn't be getting up at 5am to spend my day talking about lines, faults and conformation. By showing said bitch I am improving my understanding of the breed and structure, which will (eventually) make me a better breeder. I don't plan on breeding any time soon, I'm happy to sit back, show my girls and learn as much as I can.

My bitch's success in the ring meant another DOLer became interested in her lines and ended up taking a bitch pup from my girl's dam (after DNA testing her and breeding to a DNA clear dog), that bitch is CEA clear (as well as for everything else) and has been just as, if not more successful than my girl. She will be bred from with the aim to improve the breed. Had it not been for my girl in the ring, she would have been pet homed and never bred from.

I wouldn't show a desexed bitch as it is against the rules. But it isn't against the rules to show my girl, so I will continue to do so and learn as I do it. It doesn't give her an advantage in the ring (that a desexed bitch can have due to coat, no seasons) and everyone in my state who show know her DNA status. ETA: Her DNA status was also put on an Australian breed specific email list so many interstate breeders also know.

She's a very nice bitch, I've met her personally (not the other DOLers pup though) and I think she absolutley deserves to be shown. She looks like she enjoys it and it's obviously doing the breed a favour by getting positive attention for Lyndsay's girl's conformation, temperment and attitude.

I don't think that dogs that are HC and CEA affected should be barred from the ring.

I don't think that's what showing is about at all.

[Leema]

I don't have a problem with desexed animals being shown, but I do raise issue with rules being broken. Rules are there for consistency and fairness, and when they are not followed or enforced then fairness is compromised.

If we agree that the conformation ring is for assessing breeding stock, and we are nostalgic enough to believe this purpose should be continued, then we should consider:

1) That desexed animals could have already been bred from (i.e. desexed after litters), so they are still contributing to the breed.

2) Animals that are desexed have parents, and maybe siblings, that are entire who contribute to the breed. These desexed animals are an indicator of the breeding line, despite the fact of being desexed themselves.

3) Entire animals shown are not all bred from, so entire animals are not always breeding stock themselves.

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

[oakway]

I don't have a problem with desexed animals being shown, but I do raise issue with rules being broken. Rules are there for consistency and fairness, and when they are not followed or enforced then fairness is compromised.

If we agree that the conformation ring is for assessing breeding stock, and we are nostalgic enough to believe this purpose should be continued, then we should consider:

1) That desexed animals could have already been bred from (i.e. desexed after litters), so they are still contributing to the breed.

2) Animals that are desexed have parents, and maybe siblings, that are entire who contribute to the breed. These desexed animals are an indicator of the breeding line, despite the fact of being desexed themselves.

3) Entire animals shown are not all bred from, so entire animals are not always breeding stock themselves.

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

Sorry I can't agree that we show our dogs to have them assessed as breeding stock.

We show our dogs to see how judges think they comform to the standard.

I can blow that theory out of the water. :D

How many times do you see our top winning dogs/bitch's in their own breed never produce much to go on with, but the brother or sister that stayed at home because they could never beat their brother/sister go on to be our top producing stock.

[whippets]

Found out they are showing to get the bitches grand title..bitch has been desexed..isnt that hugely UNETHICAL???? :D

Given other things that go on in the dog world, I could care less that someone is showing a desexed dog....big deal.

[Leema]

I don't have a problem with desexed animals being shown, but I do raise issue with rules being broken. Rules are there for consistency and fairness, and when they are not followed or enforced then fairness is compromised.

If we agree that the conformation ring is for assessing breeding stock, and we are nostalgic enough to believe this purpose should be continued, then we should consider:

1) That desexed animals could have already been bred from (i.e. desexed after litters), so they are still contributing to the breed.

2) Animals that are desexed have parents, and maybe siblings, that are entire who contribute to the breed. These desexed animals are an indicator of the breeding line, despite the fact of being desexed themselves.

3) Entire animals shown are not all bred from, so entire animals are not always breeding stock themselves.

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

Sorry I can't agree that we show our dogs to have them assessed as breeding stock.

We show our dogs to see how judges think they comform to the standard.

I can blow that theory out of the water. :D

How many times do you see our top winning dogs/bitch's in their own breed never produce much to go on with, but the brother or sister that stayed at home because they could never beat their brother/sister go on to be our top producing stock.

I think you misunderstood my post.

... I said, "I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock."

[SparkyTansy]

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

I agree with this, but also have to say that I, as an exhibitor and observer, use the showring for assessing breeding stock - not my own, but others... looking at lines and patterns etc... I don't tend to look at what is winning in the ring, only what i think would work for me if i am on the lookout for a new dog or a potential mating...however, this could just as easily be done by also looking at desexed progeny, and actually would open up a whole new world of showing because we'd be seeing more than one or two of the puppies etc. I agree, it's time to move past it, because you can look at desexed stuff and it can help you (plus maybe it would increase show numbers?) if you do use the show ring to assess breed stock.

[Bokezu]

Found out they are showing to get the bitches grand title..bitch has been desexed..isnt that hugely UNETHICAL???? :D

Given other things that go on in the dog world, I could care less that someone is showing a desexed dog....big deal.

so you would trust these people, you would buy a puppy off them? they lie, they probably lie about doing health tests and who knows what else.

I hear what you are saying as in other things that go on, but surely that doesn't mean we just turn a blind eye to everything and let everyone cheat, thats not the way to do it!! If people had spoken up or complained earlier, maybe there would not be the problems now that you are referring to.

If anyone knows things are not as they seem they should speak up or lodge a complaint.

And just for the record it is a big deal, they are lying and cheating.

[Bokezu]

However, I think we should move past the notion that the conformation ring is only for assessment of breeding stock. History wise, yes, this was the original purpose. But change is upon us. The conformation ring is a nice day out for many of us, a fun place for us to spend time with our dogs, a socialisation venue for people and dogs. There is a lot more value to a dog show than simply an assessment of breeding stock.

I agree with this, but also have to say that I, as an exhibitor and observer, use the showring for assessing breeding stock - not my own, but others... looking at lines and patterns etc... I don't tend to look at what is winning in the ring, only what i think would work for me if i am on the lookout for a new dog or a potential mating...however, this could just as easily be done by also looking at desexed progeny, and actually would open up a whole new world of showing because we'd be seeing more than one or two of the puppies etc. I agree, it's time to move past it, because you can look at desexed stuff and it can help you (plus maybe it would increase show numbers?) if you do use the show ring to assess breed stock.

makes sense, but at the moment it is against all rules to lie and say your dog is entire, when in fact your dog is spayed/neutered. If the rules need to change so be it, but at the moment it is called cheating don't care what slant people put on it

[SparkyTansy]

totally agree Bokezu! I think i should have referred to my earlier post.. I am totally against it because it's against the rules.. if people want it, they should go down the right avenues to get it.