Um Isnt Showing A Desexed Bitch Wrong?

[Sandra777]

I don't see why some think they are above everyone else and don't follow the same rules. But makes me wonder if they turn a blind eye to one rule - how many others do they think do not apply to them either - and still like to think they are above everyone else...

I understand what you're saying, but the OP has been told repeatedly that if they have proof the bitch is spayed they should make a complaint - otherwise all they have is hearsay or gossip or perhaps even the old 2 + 2 = 5 ( )

Some people always think they're above the law, some of them even show dogs. It's human nature that some people will always think the rules don't apply to them.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sandra777

[SpikesPuppy]

Not sure about other states but here in Vic it's $250 to lodge a complaint..... Who has that much money to spare???

There have been a few times I've wanted to put in a protest (dogs entered in ineligible age class, wrong dog shown etc) but I'm sorry- I just can't spare that much money!! I believe if the protest is sustained you get a refund of $200. That's still $50 wasted!

[Bohunt]

Some of the things mentioned here need to be well thought out before you start putting money down for complaints. You want to be damn sure you have your facts straight.

Example:

I won DCC and BOB a few weeks ago at Kyneton Ag Show and 10 mins later a friend asked me if I had entered the wrong dog. To cut a long story short, the catalogue had my boy's father entered rather than Axle and while in Axle's class the dog was much to old for anything other than Open. After a visit to the Secretary and the Show Manager, my entry form was checked and they discovered that the Database of dogs they use, shows all dogs previously shown at 'their' shows and they had by accident, clicked on the wrong dog. All sorted, apology, a few giggles and the Challenge was awarded correctly.

It would be really stupid for anyone to not check all the facts first, then sleep on things and to be sure you want to go down such a path and is it really impacting on you if your 'fears' are correct. Dog showing is becoming such a hostile environment and we all need to band together a bit more as we have greater enemies to fear in the coming years.

[Wyntervale]

I've had someone argue with a steward that I shouldn't be allowed in the ring because I had entered my bitch as a dog by accident. I had already sorted it with the show sec and notified the steward so all was good.

But it turned out that it was an error with my entries (two to a page, one had the wrong radio button ticked on one of them). So at least finding out at this show gave me the opportunity to rectify it for future entries.

I don't think there is anything wrong with honest mistakes as long as you own up to them and sort it out.

As for showing a desexed bitch... I'm not sure I know enough to have a firm opinion on that yet... I think I'd like to know the whys and the hows first.

[Bullbreedlover]

Please, why do some of you come across as holier than thou .

Lot's of things happen in this world, just go and read the headlines, child murdered, woman raped.

Now thats against the Rules to, but it happens.

When you look at it in cold blood, is showing a de sexed animal really that much of a crime.

I thought dog showing was to have fun. As I said before if de sexed classes were mandatory at ALL shows there would be no reason for it to happen.

If you had to make a choice who would you choose as a friend, the person who shows a de sexed dog or the murderer etc ?.

Remember the old saying, those that are without sin may cast the first stone.

Hardly the same thing and can not be compared to showing a dog.

There are a hell of a lot of dogs who ended their show careers early due to emergency spaying - I bet those owners were devastated when they could no longer show their bitch and were honest enough to suck it up - I don't see why some think they are above everyone else and don't follow the same rules. But makes me wonder if they turn a blind eye to one rule - how many others do they think do not apply to them either - and still like to think they are above everyone else...

Yep

I know what that is like, and I would never show a desexed dog.

Shame on those people who do.

[LizT]

Would a blood test prove it?

I really wish dog showing was the same as horse showing in regards to neuter classes.

Although very few people would spay a mare...it's far too costly. Geldings exist because there would be a hell of a rucus if there was a bunch of entire males running around at Pony Club! LOL

I've alway though of Gelding classes as a celebration of the sire and dam and as an example of the progeny they have produced.

If, hypothetically speaking, a judge is judging a dog based on it's visible attributes, let's face it , no judge can see most eye, heart defects etc. then it makes little difference if the dog is an entire or not.

That said however, rules are rules and neuter classes need to be taken more seriously and put on for those that wish to show a neuter dog.

Those that will show a neuter in a entire class will probably continue to do so. Especially if they are trying to add points to an Entire title. Wrong as that is.

[Sandra777]

There have been a few times I've wanted to put in a protest (dogs entered in ineligible age class, wrong dog shown etc)

Do you actually need to pay your money if the dog is ineligible for the age class it's shown in - surely a quick count on the fingers will show the steward someone got it wrong and it would be up to them to get it sorted???

Or are you meaning people deliberately lying about the whelping date?

[oakway]

There have been a few times I've wanted to put in a protest (dogs entered in ineligible age class, wrong dog shown etc)

Do you actually need to pay your money if the dog is ineligible for the age class it's shown in - surely a quick count on the fingers will show the steward someone got it wrong and it would be up to them to get it sorted???

Or are you meaning people deliberately lying about the whelping date?

And what's more it could be a cataloging error.

I have had bitches entered as dogs and in the wrong class, wrong owner but the entry form is correct. (It happens)

[SparkyTansy]

My dog was entered as a bitch in the catalogue once! Judge had a giggle, I had a giggle, we moved on!!

Almost saw a full on brawl because someone didn't get their facts straight about why a dog that wasn't in the catalogue was allowed entry into the show.

[Diva]

I think there is a huge difference between an honest mistake by an exhibitor or cataloguer and someone being willing to deliberately deceive by entering a desexed bitch in an entire class.

I feel the same way about the people who show their desexed bitches as entires as I do about those who have tail carriage surgically fixed - dishonest in one area, so quite possibly dishonest in many. It may not be a major 'crime', but it is revealing of character

Edited December 30, 2010 by Diva

[SpikesPuppy]

There have been a few times I've wanted to put in a protest (dogs entered in ineligible age class, wrong dog shown etc)

Do you actually need to pay your money if the dog is ineligible for the age class it's shown in - surely a quick count on the fingers will show the steward someone got it wrong and it would be up to them to get it sorted???

Or are you meaning people deliberately lying about the whelping date?

I'm talking about altering the whelping date from show to show to suit the competition.

Also have seen cases when the dog wins it's age in group but not eligible (in this case dog was entered as an Intermediate but was only 17 months at the time). Could have been a catalogue error but I believe it should have been rectified prior to the dog being judged so it was judged in the correct class. It didn't beat mine as we were knocked out in breed level anyway but I don't think it was right. Exhibitors need to be responsible fir their dogs and check the catalogue before the class starts and rectify mistakes sooner rather than later. Saves a whole lot of bullshit really.

Dog entered as a bitch and catalogue error I can accept without a problem but when a certain dog is entered but another shown in it's place just to get the entire litter titled (remaining dog has a major breed fault), I find that unacceptable. Not my breeds though so it doesn't affect me personally and I cannot justify the expense.

[espinay2]

I think there is a huge difference between an honest mistake by an exhibitor or cataloguer and someone being willing to deliberately deceive by entering a desexed bitch in an entire class........ It may not be a major 'crime', but it is revealing of character

I agree. Mistakes happen and an honest mistake like entering the wrong class or a cataloguing error is not something to complain about IMO (It is easy enough to correct if brought to someones attention quick enough - usually in these situations if the exhibitor does know about it they will correct it).

Deliberately entering an ineligible dog in a class (generally more than once) and deliberately leading people to beleive it is eligible, is a different matter. That is cheating...or fraud. It is gaining something by deception.

Yes, it is 'only a dog show' and we are there to have fun. But if the rules aren't how we like them, we need to change the rules, not ignore them. It isn't fun any more when people are unethical.

If it sounds 'holier than thou' or 'whinging' to say that I would expect people to play honestly by the rules then so be it. To me that is such a basic thing and if we begin to accept cheating as normal I think we have all lost in more ways than one. This isn't about gossip or about accusations or about winning, it is about basic ethics and sportsmanship. Playing by the rules means it stays fun.

Edited January 1, 2011 by espinay2

[emery]

i accidentally entered my pup in the wrong class. filled in a whole heap of entry forms on the one day and the last form she was supposed to go up to minor not baby she was into the class by a week. i freaked out when looking in the catalogue and saw her in minor and worked it out thankfully the secretary realised or i would be guilty of this. i now check more carefully but it could accidentally happen. haven't heard of anyone showing a desexed bitch though

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Agree with Diva and Espinay - great posts.

[LizT]

My dog was entered as a bitch in the catalogue once! Judge had a giggle, I had a giggle, we moved on!!

Almost saw a full on brawl because someone didn't get their facts straight about why a dog that wasn't in the catalogue was allowed entry into the show.

LOL reminds me of when I first started showing and was following the entry number only, not realising my bitch had been entered as a Dog. (not my error BTW)

Judge feels for equipment and says to me "This is a bitch". "Yes??" was my perplexed reply.

Fortunately very sweet Steward jumped in and explained I was a "newbie".

[angelsun]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

[Sandra777]

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

Sorry I cannnot understand the logic of this argument.

Surely judging progeny is a more logical way of judging the worth of breeding stock?

If this is so, then whether the progeny can be bred or not is irrelevant, we are using the progeny to judge the worth of the parents.

No, I don't think wholesale desexing of show dogs would be useful, but I cannot understand the argument which says that just because an animal is desexed it is no longer a worthy representative of what it's parents can produce - i.e. no longer useful in the evaluating of the BREEDING worth of the parents

[LizT]

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

Sorry I cannnot understand the logic of this argument.

Surely judging progeny is a more logical way of judging the worth of breeding stock?

If this is so, then whether the progeny can be bred or not is irrelevant, we are using the progeny to judge the worth of the parents.

No, I don't think wholesale desexing of show dogs would be useful, but I cannot understand the argument which says that just because an animal is desexed it is no longer a worthy representative of what it's parents can produce - i.e. no longer useful in the evaluating of the BREEDING worth of the parents

I agree with this logic Sandra777 but feel people need to be upfront about it. I don't think Nueter Classes should be dismissed so easily but there is still no place for a neuter in a entire class IF it is trying to present itself as an entire. Particular in the cases of inhanced coat advantage of hormonal influences (or lack thereof).

Famous saying though is "Rules were meant to be broken!" Some people will bend 'em till they break.

[LizT]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

Does this pertain to 'products"???

[oakway]

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

Sorry I cannnot understand the logic of this argument.

Surely judging progeny is a more logical way of judging the worth of breeding stock?

If this is so, then whether the progeny can be bred or not is irrelevant, we are using the progeny to judge the worth of the parents.

No, I don't think wholesale desexing of show dogs would be useful, but I cannot understand the argument which says that just because an animal is desexed it is no longer a worthy representative of what it's parents can produce - i.e. no longer useful in the evaluating of the BREEDING worth of the parents

I have to agree with this whole heartedly.

I do think that originally, that dogs and bitches for judged for their ability to breed, but once the standards came in, they, the Judges had to judge to a standard.

As I keep saying, how can any of us judge a dogs/bitches breeding ability when through a quirk of nature they may both be barren.

Other than a Breeders class how do we assess what might happen ?.