Um Isnt Showing A Desexed Bitch Wrong?

[angelsun]

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

Sorry I cannnot understand the logic of this argument.

Surely judging progeny is a more logical way of judging the worth of breeding stock?

If this is so, then whether the progeny can be bred or not is irrelevant, we are using the progeny to judge the worth of the parents.

No, I don't think wholesale desexing of show dogs would be useful, but I cannot understand the argument which says that just because an animal is desexed it is no longer a worthy representative of what it's parents can produce - i.e. no longer useful in the evaluating of the BREEDING worth of the parents

I have to agree with this whole heartedly.

I do think that originally, that dogs and bitches for judged for their ability to breed, but once the standards came in, they, the Judges had to judge to a standard.

As I keep saying, how can any of us judge a dogs/bitches breeding ability when through a quirk of nature they may both be barren.

Other than a Breeders class how do we assess what might happen ?.

Whether or not any of us agree that this was why dog shows started, the fact remains that this is history...now like so many things now, we see changes, and it's not a bad thing, however if we were NOT here to judge current BREEDING stock and the potential future of same, why put the rule in place for ALL breeds that males must have two apparently normal testicals decended into the scrotum? Like so many in dogs, the attitude has developed that history and tradition mean nothing, and the new ninety day wonders have the right way of doing things and 'what's your problem with that?' sort of mentality.

As for foreign substances...the term "product" is the politically correct one, however the only thing allowed in the coats of ANY breed by the rule book is water. Some countries hold true to this rule, and many judges are death on hair spray. I have personally witnessed a few shihtzu owners being raked across the coals for their use of spray to create the windproof/bend proof topknot that is required, however when pushed and told remove the product or else...they manage to put up a nice topknot without the gunk.....why not do that in the first place?

Colour and texture enhancements, whatever words you want to use, are not permitted, but I have yet to see a show in Canada, the USA or here for that matter, where anyone challenges the use of them, as it's considered normal and appropriate, in spite of being against the rules.

[Sandra777]

Like so many in dogs, the attitude has developed that history and tradition mean nothing, and the new ninety day wonders have the right way of doing things and 'what's your problem with that?' sort of mentality.

All 32 years of my show dog experience is ;) :D :D

[oakway]

Of course we will all have different opinions on the way we judge dogs that,s a good thing.

But I can only say, that when I was out there, I have NEVER assessed any any dog/bitch as to their breeding ability.

It was always, how good does this animal measure up to the standard. ;)

Cheers.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Two issues here I think.

One is whether you think it's OK to break the rules, particularly in situations where it will give you an advantage over the competition or enable you to do what people who follow the rules can't (e.g. Gr Ch title a bitch after an emergency spay)

Two is whether you think there is a place for desexed dogs in conformation showing.

I think you can say no to the first and yes to the second without being in conflict given the new neuter title, so I'm not sure why this conversation is getting so heated. I'm assuming no-one is suggesting that is OK to break the rules?

[SpikesPuppy]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

[Bullbreedlover]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

Conformation shows are not all about judging breeding stock. Many many entire dogs and bitches that are shown and titled may not be bred from at all, for various reasons. Just because they are not bred from does not mean that they can not compete in shows. That is seriously ridiculous. Compulsory health testing is not the be end and all of the show ring either. If a dog is showing a serious lameness or affected by a disease then the owner of the dog should make the decision. I know of breeds with which their hip scores are truly not good but yet they have been bred from, with very careful planning. And some of these dogs are huge winners in the show ring. You wont be able to tell if a dog or bitch is barren/infertile unless you use them for breeding. Why should they be barred from the show ring? It is a show ring, and a judge is assessing the best of the breeds in CONFORMATION on the day. NOT their breeding worth. Breeding worth means alot of different things to different people.

eta

showing a desexed dog or bitch is an entirely different subject, and I have different views on this.

Edited January 2, 2011 by stonebridge

[oakway]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

Conformation shows are not all about judging breeding stock. Many many entire dogs and bitches that are shown and titled may not be bred from at all, for various reasons. Just because they are not bred from does not mean that they can not compete in shows. That is seriously ridiculous. Compulsory health testing is not the be end and all of the show ring either. If a dog is showing a serious lameness or affected by a disease then the owner of the dog should make the decision. I know of breeds with which their hip scores are truly not good but yet they have been bred from, with very careful planning. And some of these dogs are huge winners in the show ring. You wont be able to tell if a dog or bitch is barren/infertile unless you use them for breeding. Why should they be barred from the show ring? It is a show ring, and a judge is assessing the best of the breeds in CONFORMATION on the day. NOT their breeding worth. Breeding worth means alot of different things to different people.

I can agree with all what Stonebridge has written.

I just wish that Neuter classes were available at all shows. Then everyone is catered for then there is no excuse for entering in the ordinary classed.

[SpikesPuppy]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

Conformation shows are not all about judging breeding stock. Many many entire dogs and bitches that are shown and titled may not be bred from at all, for various reasons. Just because they are not bred from does not mean that they can not compete in shows. That is seriously ridiculous. Compulsory health testing is not the be end and all of the show ring either. If a dog is showing a serious lameness or affected by a disease then the owner of the dog should make the decision. I know of breeds with which their hip scores are truly not good but yet they have been bred from, with very careful planning. And some of these dogs are huge winners in the show ring. You wont be able to tell if a dog or bitch is barren/infertile unless you use them for breeding. Why should they be barred from the show ring? It is a show ring, and a judge is assessing the best of the breeds in CONFORMATION on the day. NOT their breeding worth. Breeding worth means alot of different things to different people.

eta

showing a desexed dog or bitch is an entirely different subject, and I have different views on this.

Uhhh yes I know this. My post was a response to Angelsun's comment that if it were not suitable for breeding then it had no Place in the show ring. I was being a smartarse.

Edited January 2, 2011 by SpikesPuppy

[Sheridan]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

I was at a Royal a couple of years ago and I think the woman near me used an entire bottle of hairspray on her westie. She was spraying for hours.

[LizT]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

Very valid point. You could be showing a dog with a high level heart murmur but the judge would have no idea that this is the case.

So should a veterinary certificate be part of the final paperwork for titling???

E.T.A. I see stonebridge had a good reply to this conundrum.

Edited January 2, 2011 by LizT

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Very valid point. You could be showing a dog with a high level heart murmur but the judge would have no idea that this is the case.

I've no idea what the answer is for a Chow but for other breeds a look in the mouth will give you a hint about a possible heart problem if it is that serious.

I don't think a vet certificate would work, there are already tame vets and vets who do the teeth, tails and ear fixing for the show ring. $$$ will get you any kind of paper you want.

[Sheridan]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

I presume it's because there are many diseases and not all of them are obvious. PLN in wheatens is late onset so a dog could have it and not show symptoms until it's well past showing and breeding stage. Testing only shows results on the day not an indication as to whether a dog will get it. How do you indicate that a wheaten is free of PLN as part of a show title? You can't.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Sheridan

[SpikesPuppy]

Why bother to have big books of rules, when either people ignore them, break them or those that do follow, can do nothing to correct those that won't?

Remember, dog shows were originally designed to judge BREEDING stock...if it can't be bred from, it doesn't belong in competition unless a specific class is offered.

I would love to see hair samples taken to enforce the 'foreign substance' rule...shall we start with the poodles/shihtzu and many terriers of wire coat?

If this is true then why are dogs who are infertile or barren allowed to be shown? Why are dogs found to have an unacceptable for breeding hip or elbow score or those found to be a carrier or affected by a disease still allowed in the ring? Why is health testing not part of the rules when or comes to titling an animal?

I presume it's because there are many diseases and not all of them are obvious. PLN in wheatens is late onset so a dog could have it and not show symptoms until it's well past showing and breeding stage. Testing only shows results on the day not an indication as to whether a dog will get it. How do you indicate that a wheaten is free of PLN as part of a show title? You can't.

I WAS BEING A SMARTARSE. Devil's Advocate of a kind. I know this. We have CECS in our breed - a disease thats very existence is debated or denied, there is no testing and the symptoms can be varied and many.

My point was- if conformation shows are only about exhibiting eligible breeding stock, then our shows would be a lot smaller.

[brightonrock]

I WAS BEING A SMARTARSE. Devil's Advocate of a kind. I know this. We have CECS in our breed - a disease thats very existence is debated or denied, there is no testing and the symptoms can be varied and many.

My point was- if conformation shows are only about exhibiting eligible breeding stock, then our shows would be a lot smaller.

If a health condition is not identifiable with tests or even dignified with a medically recognised term or name then there is no point in making generalisations about the Breed. If you do then SP you have to accept your breeding stock is in theory as affected as the exhibitor next to you.

I just love how these topics travel from the original post, and yes, I agree showing a Desexed Bitch is wrong because there is absolutely no chance of breeding from her and getting a pup out of her. If exhibitors enter their neuter bitches they should be fined.

[LizT]

Very valid point. You could be showing a dog with a high level heart murmur but the judge would have no idea that this is the case.

I've no idea what the answer is for a Chow but for other breeds a look in the mouth will give you a hint about a possible heart problem if it is that serious.

I don't think a vet certificate would work, there are already tame vets and vets who do the teeth, tails and ear fixing for the show ring. $$$ will get you any kind of paper you want.

Not for a CKCS, they can have a great set of teeth and a level 6 hear murmur!

You are so right about $$$$$ "fixing" everything though.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Not for a CKCS, they can have a great set of teeth and a level 6 hear murmur! :p

You are so right about $$$$$ "fixing" everything though.

Sorry - should have been more specific. It's the gum and tongue colour that will give you a hint about heart issues.

[SpikesPuppy]

I WAS BEING A SMARTARSE. Devil's Advocate of a kind. I know this. We have CECS in our breed - a disease thats very existence is debated or denied, there is no testing and the symptoms can be varied and many.

My point was- if conformation shows are only about exhibiting eligible breeding stock, then our shows would be a lot smaller.

If a health condition is not identifiable with tests or even dignified with a medically recognised term or name then there is no point in making generalisations about the Breed. If you do then SP you have to accept your breeding stock is in theory as affected as the exhibitor next to you.

I just love how these topics travel from the original post, and yes, I agree showing a Desexed Bitch is wrong because there is absolutely no chance of breeding from her and getting a pup out of her. If exhibitors enter their neuter bitches they should be fined.

Where did I make generalizations about the breed? I believe we have a problem with our dogs but many bury their heads in the sand and deny it. There is costly research being carried out to find a genetic marker for the disorder. Canine Epileptiod Cramping Syndrome is the name or Spike's Disease. But unfortunately many vets (out of curiosity i have questioned 4 GP vets and only one had heard of it and this was one who jad done a lot of work in the UK and knew the breed) especially in Australia don't know of it or put the cramping down to epilepsy or generic fitting conditions. I have never claimed my lines to be free from it - all I can and do say is my dogs have never shown any symptoms which is the truth.

There are some CAE affected dogs in the show ring and I often wonder if they have a place out there but I always come back to the same answer - yep they do. To me, my definition, is a dog show is a beauty contest judged day to day against the breed standards and the inner health of the animal has nothing to do with this. I believe the breeding stock argument is long gone. Especially with the number of 'exhibitor only' people who enjoy toddling along for the day out. I see it as an activity, not a marketplace as it once was.

[angelsun]

Lets go back a minute....HISTORY says dog shows were first started to assess potential breeding stock in gundogs primarily, hence why we started with sporting and non sporting (any breed that did not fit the sporting dog group of characturistics)

Dog shows DO in fact assess potential breeding stock....many won't breed a dog/bitch til it's titled, however that opens a new arguement about whether you the owner/breeder knows more about your dog/bitch than a bunch of strangers that have a badge and have been hired to give out slips of paper...another debate though.

There are many dogs out there with titles that no only do not conform to the standard but have glaring breed specific faults, and yet they compete and win challenges and in many cases, titles. There are many dogs out there with serious health problems (the word is problem, not fault as used correctly based on the breed standard which does not for any breed, list any health issues that would disqualify a dog from being exhibited)

This is were it gets interesting....owners know of the dog with bad hips or a heart problem, and choose to show them. Owners know about the very serious fault and either cover it, or take a chance and not show under a breeder judge and hope for the points.....owners know of the dog they want to get a title on because they want to breed from it, and the only way to do that is stick in some substandard ones for it to beat, or find shows where it's a single entry and hope for the best. Owners show desexed dogs in the regular classes to obtain another title.

Why do owners do these things? Motivations vary as we can well imagine and this is not the thread to debate them. The question asked if showing a desexed bitch is wrong (in the regular classes) Short answer is yes....regardless of how some may want to spin the rules....it is wrong and cheating.

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

I know of desexed animals being shown...bitches spayed and dogs with testicle implants....I know of dogs winning best in shows with hip scores of the highest magnitude you can imagine. I know of dogs with heart conditions, gastro conditions and dogs that have passed along hereditary issues such as clefts and epilepsy.....question raised as to whether we should provide a health cert, when we show dogs....it's not a bad idea really, but it won't solve health issues in the breeds, because as we know, you do not HAVE to obtain a title to breed a litter.....however there are places that without a working aptitude certificate, your main register animal is ineligible to reproduce, but many believe that is a violation of rights of the breeder.....can't have it both ways though.

[Sheridan]

Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime.

Dog shows don't assess whether or not a dog can do the job for which it was bred; they're judged on running around a little ring. It might give an idea of movement but not of breeding potential.

[brightonrock]

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Edited January 3, 2011 by turkishdelight