Um Isnt Showing A Desexed Bitch Wrong?

[Bokezu]

Why do some show people blatantly break rules? Double standards hell yeah :p

you can tell me all day why they do it bla bla bla but it is wrong and it is breaking the rules, I just don't understand. These people are dishonest, and they are LYING everytime they fill in a show entry for their dogs!! people like this make me sick

eta it is not about "the judge wouldn't know" etc...and its not about "they do it in UK" its about being honest, if all these people want to show neutered dogs lobby the rule makers and have the rules changed!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 28, 2010 by Bokezu

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Nah, In this day and age there is plenty of stuff about to keep a bitch out of season and there fore does not drop her coat.

I suppose you could say that during this time the bitch was a barren bitch.

I know there are more than a few that go the chemical castration/delay seasons route, but there are also those who have had them desexed. As for drugs, as I've said here before, I would LOVE to see proper random drug testing at shows. For caffeine, alcohol, sedatives and anything else that affects the presentation in the ring*.

i know it's too expensive; too hard for dog world to really get the kind of regulatory framework you would need in place; and I know it brings out the calls of "it's only a hobby, don't obsess over it!" but a girl can dream anyway. :p

*just for the dogs, tho' the results for humans could be a giggle.

[~Myschafis~]

Personally I couldn't give a dam if a desexed bitch is shown and titles.

The judges are judging to a standard and if that dog meets the requirements of the standard so be it.

Now DON"T come back at me that the judge is judging as to breeding requirements because they are NOT.

Judges, judge to a that breeds required standard.

How would the judge know if the average bitch/dog was capable of even producing a litter.

How would a judge know if the owners would even breed the the animal concerned.

How would a judge know if the animal concerned would have the capabilities of conceiving if she was bred.

How many times do we hear that the bitch was mated and never produced.

And by the way you will never know how many bitches that are shown are de sexed.

Oh, and by the way, many of the males have have had a vasectomy and can't produce either.

I have to say I totally agree with you here and yes that's just my opinion. I think the UK way of showing is more sensible including moving at a sensible pace and not like a bat out of hell!

I am also an advocate. Bitches in season are a PITA and if they are done with their breeding days but are still young fit and healthy enough to still be a great show bitch and enjoy doing it, why not lesson the risk of cancers, pyo etc and enjoy are lovely older girls doing their thing.

I dont agree with desexed dogs, you can hide a multitude of problems with desexing a dog. However some shifty vet work can also hide a multitude of sins these days also I suppose.

[Jsk]

At the end of the day wether you agree with doing the wrong thing by showing a desexed bitch in a non neuter class or not IT IS WRONG as it is AGAINST the rules.

[Ceilidh]

If I was ABSOLUTELY sure the bitch was desexed then in a very loud voice in lots of company I would ask the person why they are flaunting the rules and regs by showing a desexed bitch!

[Andisa]

I would suggest that if you can prove it you put your money where your mouth is and make a formal complaint.

If you can't prove it how do you know you haven't put two and two together and come up with five?

Nope, don't own a desexed bitch but I can't see what the big deal is about a set of testicles or some ovaries either.

Don't waste your time, energy or money it is not worth it when they only need a letter from their vet to save their arse - no idea why a vet would risk their reputation but you would be surprised those who do...no difference for surgically altering tails and ears...they are cheating and don't give a crap about it...

If I was ABSOLUTELY sure the bitch was desexed then in a very loud voice in lots of company I would ask the person why they are flaunting the rules and regs by showing a desexed bitch!

A lot of people will already know any way..

Edited December 28, 2010 by Andisa

[cowanbree]

To be honest I know people who have done a lot of things that are illegal, from fixing tails and lance canines to inserting a fake testicle. Showing desexed bitch seems quite minor in comparison. Heck if we want to be real sticklers, all those grooming products from chalk to hair spray are also illegal. Personally I say do what you can live with and don't worry about what other people are doing, makes life a lot easier.

[Shaar]

Isn't the point of shows to always breed 'better dogs' for the ring.

If people are showing desexed dogs then obviously they can't be bred from.

I wouldn't mind a rule where you are permitted to show a desexed bitch after 5 years of age or after 2 litters, but if the dog has never been bred from and is young then I don't think it is fair or right.

Yes, some dogs can make excellent show dogs but not good breeding stock, but it goes against what shows are about IMO... bettering your breed. If they brought in a rule where you could show a desexed dog (at any age) then you could potentially be cutting off a lot of GOOD breeding stock by people who just can't be bothered dealing with a season twice a year.

Some breeds have a limited gene pool as it is.

[Bokezu]

its not about if desexing is better for your dog, we all know there are times when of course you are better off desexing your dog or bitch! you then can't show that dog unless you break the rules.

[KOE]

no not for Neuter ch...yes I would but how would it be proved??

Exactly how do you prove it? Yes it is ethically wrong, but remember some show people have no ethics at all.

agreed, I just had to have a vent thats all

Oakaway, whats up your nose? Do YOU show a desexed bitch?? Dont attack me, I just wanted to make a point, after all why bother bringing in a neuter title??

No you can prove it, yes Im sure there are many, many desexed dogs being shown, but there are RULES and if they can and will be flouted whats the point of even having said rule, thats all i was saying!! Geez!!!

RallyVally: sorry edited to post to your questain..because of the person, it was accidently told to me, and then i put two and two together from a conversation with the owner I had a few months ago. NOT gossip.

2 and 2 dont always make 4 either

I remember a few years ago a dog that was being shown and the rumour mill had it as being desexed well years later it had a litter of pups after the owner stopped showing it. 2 and 2 was put together then and it sure didnt add up to 4

[Sandra777]

If people are showing desexed dogs then obviously they can't be bred from.

So what? The parents can be and then breeders have proof that the parents can produce good dogs.

Works great in the horse world - for example some of the best race horses in the world have been geldings - all proving very handily that their mummies and daddies are good producers and should be bred from while never contributing a thing themselves.

This is quite aside from the fact that very few breeders I know care much one way or the other for the show ring opinion of an all rounder and certainly don't pay any attention to what happens under these judges when it comes to making breeding decisions!

The number of top show dogs which go on to be top sires can be counted on a very few fingers in most breeds.

[oakway]

If people are showing desexed dogs then obviously they can't be bred from.

So what? The parents can be and then breeders have proof that the parents can produce good dogs.

Works great in the horse world - for example some of the best race horses in the world have been geldings - all proving very handily that their mummies and daddies are good producers and should be bred from while never contributing a thing themselves.

This is quite aside from the fact that very few breeders I know care much one way or the other for the show ring opinion of an all rounder and certainly don't pay any attention to what happens under these judges when it comes to making breeding decisions!

The number of top show dogs which go on to be top sires can be counted on a very few fingers in most breeds.

Correct.

People, those that show stock that MAY be de sexed, are usually not dedicated breeders and would have in all probability never bred the dog/bitch anyway.

You can always ask the breeder if there will be anymore available from any repeat matings should you wish one, or one from similar matings.

Edited December 28, 2010 by oakway

[Silversails]

Why do some show people blatantly break rules? Double standards hell yeah

you can tell me all day why they do it bla bla bla but it is wrong and it is breaking the rules, I just don't understand. These people are dishonest, and they are LYING everytime they fill in a show entry for their dogs!! people like this make me sick

eta it is not about "the judge wouldn't know" etc...and its not about "they do it in UK" its about being honest, if all these people want to show neutered dogs lobby the rule makers and have the rules changed!!!!!!!!!!

Well said.

It isn't about whether it is right or wrong, or what each of us think about it - it flaunts the rules. And members sign off on those rules when they join, and as Bokezu so rightly points out, the people doing this are cheats. It is not fair to entire dogs, particularly coated ones.

Nothing will ever happen if no complaints are lodged.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Silversails

[espinay2]

I would have no problem with desexed dogs being shown if this were permitted. An open neuter class for example that could compete for challenge along with the other classes (that way you knew they were neutered and could take differences in coat into consideration when competing against other classes etc). I agree that it is a good way for progeny to be displayed or for bitches that needed to be desexed such as due to pyometra etc to not have their show career cut short.

What I strongly object to is people breaking the rules. It is currently against the rules to show a desexed dog in normal classes. I therefore consider anyone breaching these rules as they currently stand to be highly unethical.

If someone is willing to breach these rules just to show a dog, what else are they likely to be willing to breach or compromise on? Frankly I would never be able to trust someone who I found out did something like this (and just a tip - you will pretty much always be found out by someone folks. Even if it never gets reported for one reason or another, your reputation is gone.....)

Off my soapbox now.

[MolassesLass]

What I strongly object to is people breaking the rules. It is currently against the rules to show a desexed dog in normal classes. I therefore consider anyone breaching these rules as they currently stand to be highly unethical.

If someone is willing to breach these rules just to show a dog, what else are they likely to be willing to breach or compromise on? Frankly I would never be able to trust someone who I found out did something like this (and just a tip - you will pretty much always be found out by someone folks. Even if it never gets reported for one reason or another, your reputation is gone.....)

I agree with all this - rules is rules.

[Dogsfevr]

I would have no problem with desexed dogs being shown if this were permitted. An open neuter class for example that could compete for challenge along with the other classes (that way you knew they were neutered and could take differences in coat into consideration when competing against other classes etc).

But this wouldn't work,whilst some breeds certainly are affected by spay coats (my breed included)some dogs also have bad coats & is an issue in there lines .

Coat plays an important factor in the breed standard & should be part of the package.

As for showing spayed bitches well my 2 cents is i don't see the point of posting topics like this just to whinge,either put in a complaint if you now its actually true or otherwise say nothing.

I now of a few cases of people claiming a bitch was spayed & the owners ended up so peeved they took it further against those whinging & proved the bitch wasn't.

Same applies to giving drugs/colouring coats & the list goes on.Many willing to complain but not willing to do anything .

I have been one of those accused of doing things & i can tell you now it isn't fun & shows a total act of bad sports by others who just presume because you have something they can't achieve it must be enhnaced or because you cheat .

[becks]

In the UK we are not supposed to show desexed dogs - unless prior permission has been given from the kennel club, this is then printed in the kennel gazette so anyone will know.

Is showing a desexed bitch any worse then her being pumped full of chemicals to stop her coming into season for a few years or more?

It seems a lot of people are very happy to use various lotions, potions, sprays, chalks, creams etc to give their dog an advantage in the show ring and it isn't just about 'presentation', this is against the rules too. Walk past a lot of grooming areas and it can be hard to breathe or walk a black dog near where a white one is being prepared and see if that black dog is still black!

I show a groomed breed and must be the only one who doesn't have the legs packed with powder and spray, who doesn't use hairspray over the body to stiffen up the coat or just groom the dog into a shape that has no baring on the shape of the dog underneath. I have had other miniature schnauzer owners tell me that blacks or b/s can never have hard coats like p/s and yet mine manage to have very hard coats through breeding and hard work.

[oakway]

Please, why do some of you come across as holier than thou .

Lot's of things happen in this world, just go and read the headlines, child murdered, woman raped.

Now thats against the Rules to, but it happens.

When you look at it in cold blood, is showing a de sexed animal really that much of a crime.

I thought dog showing was to have fun. As I said before if de sexed classes were mandatory at ALL shows there would be no reason for it to happen.

If you had to make a choice who would you choose as a friend, the person who shows a de sexed dog or the murderer etc ?.

Remember the old saying, those that are without sin may cast the first stone.

[Andisa]

Why do some show people blatantly break rules? Double standards hell yeah

you can tell me all day why they do it bla bla bla but it is wrong and it is breaking the rules, I just don't understand. These people are dishonest, and they are LYING everytime they fill in a show entry for their dogs!! people like this make me sick

eta it is not about "the judge wouldn't know" etc...and its not about "they do it in UK" its about being honest, if all these people want to show neutered dogs lobby the rule makers and have the rules changed!!!!!!!!!!

Well said.

It isn't about whether it is right or wrong, or what each of us think about it - it flaunts the rules. And members sign off on those rules when they join, and as Bokezu so rightly points out, the people doing this are cheats. It is not fair to entire dogs, particularly coated ones.

Nothing will ever happen if no complaints are lodged.

And NOTHING happens when you do - so don't waste your money!!!

[Andisa]

Please, why do some of you come across as holier than thou .

Lot's of things happen in this world, just go and read the headlines, child murdered, woman raped.

Now thats against the Rules to, but it happens.

When you look at it in cold blood, is showing a de sexed animal really that much of a crime.

I thought dog showing was to have fun. As I said before if de sexed classes were mandatory at ALL shows there would be no reason for it to happen.

If you had to make a choice who would you choose as a friend, the person who shows a de sexed dog or the murderer etc ?.

Remember the old saying, those that are without sin may cast the first stone.

Hardly the same thing and can not be compared to showing a dog.

There are a hell of a lot of dogs who ended their show careers early due to emergency spaying - I bet those owners were devastated when they could no longer show their bitch and were honest enough to suck it up - I don't see why some think they are above everyone else and don't follow the same rules. But makes me wonder if they turn a blind eye to one rule - how many others do they think do not apply to them either - and still like to think they are above everyone else...