Building Confidence

[GoldenGirl85]

Lexi has always been a shy, but confident pup, but Ive noticed in recent weeks/months that has changed drastically

Last night I got their puzzle out and put some raw beef inside, Tess had her go and worked it out instantly, put Tess away and set it up for Lexi...she knew there was beef inside, but seemed to be scared to try and work it out, she would just lay on her back and surrender, even though I was encouraging her with a "yes" marker every time she looked like getting it, so I went and got my clicker, which got me a bit further, but still no win for either of us

Im not sure what sparked this, I have a feeling it could have been my last housemate (not my house so I have no say in who lives here) but anyway, this guy came up to me one day and said that Lexi cowers at his feet all the time now, and then went on to say that he caught her with a spray bottle and he took it off her and just "popped" her on the head...it took all my effort not to loose it with the guy, but I explained to him that Lexi doesnt need that sort of reinforcement, she is a very sensitive dog and all you really need to do is lower your voice at her

Anyway I dont know what to do with her now, she seems to have lost any confidence she did have in herself, training has been a bit impossible lately because of the rain (I dont think training in the rain will help) and I honestly thought that being a food driven Goldie, she would eventually work that puzzle out, but no, she doesnt even seem to have any drive for food these days, of course she will eat whats on offer, but she doesnt seem to want to work for the food like she used to

[Staranais]

Will she not work for food at all, or just not work for food around the toy? If the second, she may have made a negative association with the toy. Dogs make weird associations, sometimes.

[GoldenGirl85]

she wont work for food at all, Ive tried hiding food under a bowl, she basically just gives up if its not handed to her on a platter...almost as if she thinks its too hard

I just want to stimulate her mind a bit lol, she is living up to her hair colour atm

[wuffles]

My girl is the same age as yours and I noticed that she has seemed to lose confidence in a few things lately. She's also matured a lot though and has lost most of her puppy behaviours so that is good

Does Lexi have a favourite game? For example, Ava loves rear end awareness games using the phone book. Before I do anything new or that she doesn't have quite right yet, I try and do something that she loves and is good at, like that game. She also loves tricks like spin, rolling over, walking backwards, etc. so if she's getting frustrated I tend to do a few of those to build her confidence again. I also know that targeting games are often recommended to gain confidence in dogs.

My other dog has low food drive and isn't interested in toys. The main way I get him interested in training is to train Ava in front of him while he's crated or tethered, and use his highest value treats only... bbq chicken or raw meat.

[GoldenGirl85]

I used to do a lot of sit/drop, put some food down and release her to it, but even lately she wont drive to the food like she used to, its more like this (release word being break)

"BREAK"

(Lexi will move forwards, maybe move a front foot or two)

"Lexi, break"

(Lexi will slowly idle over, unsure if she is supposed to be eating the food)

This is a game we have been playing since the beginning, I also had her targetting her feet on a board a few months ago, but now...she wont do anything except cower and roll on her back

[luvsdogs]

Is she interested in her meals? If so do a little training with this before you put it down for her to eat. If she's not a vet visit may be in order to check there's nothing wrong medically.

[Staranais]

I used to do a lot of sit/drop, put some food down and release her to it, but even lately she wont drive to the food like she used to, its more like this (release word being break)

"BREAK"

(Lexi will move forwards, maybe move a front foot or two)

"Lexi, break"

(Lexi will slowly idle over, unsure if she is supposed to be eating the food)

Sounds like she is not sure what the break command means anymore - sounds like she thinks that she might get in trouble for eating the food even after the "break" command is given?

Is there any food she really likes to eat, that she has good drive for and will eat around you? Roast chicken, roast meat, smelly cheese, perhaps after skipping a meal? Can you maybe reteach the meaning of the break command using that? Just showing her the food in your closed hand, saying "break!" and opening your hand so she can get the food should do it to get her interested in earning the food again & understanding that "break" means it's OK to take.

That would be my first port of call probably, anyway.

[GoldenGirl85]

I used to do a lot of sit/drop, put some food down and release her to it, but even lately she wont drive to the food like she used to, its more like this (release word being break)

"BREAK"

(Lexi will move forwards, maybe move a front foot or two)

"Lexi, break"

(Lexi will slowly idle over, unsure if she is supposed to be eating the food)

Sounds like she is not sure what the break command means anymore - sounds like she thinks that she might get in trouble for eating the food even after the "break" command is given?

Is there any food she really likes to eat, that she has good drive for and will eat around you? Roast chicken, roast meat, smelly cheese, perhaps after skipping a meal? Can you maybe reteach the meaning of the break command using that? Just showing her the food in your closed hand, saying "break!" and opening your hand so she can get the food should do it to get her interested in earning the food again & understanding that "break" means it's OK to take.

That would be my first port of call probably, anyway.

Hmm, fair point, I might have to have a go at this

[Erny]

she wont work for food at all, Ive tried hiding food under a bowl, she basically just gives up if its not handed to her on a platter...almost as if she thinks its too hard

Even before I reached this post, I was already wondering if Lexi has worked out that surrendering IS the way to winning (her perception of "win" anyway).

Try some "agility" work. This doesn't need to be elaborate - even something like a sturdy, strong wooden or plastic storage box will do it to begin with. Tell her "hup!" and when she's up, offer the food reward and praise. If she doesn't want the food, don't worry about it. Just keep smiling and tell her how very clever she is. Puff out your chest to show how proud you are of her talent. Then indicate to get down and tell her "off". Repeat with the praise but no food. Repeat "hup" and offer food and praise. Continue with two or three of these repeats.

[GoldenGirl85]

she wont work for food at all, Ive tried hiding food under a bowl, she basically just gives up if its not handed to her on a platter...almost as if she thinks its too hard

Even before I reached this post, I was already wondering if Lexi has worked out that surrendering IS the way to winning (her perception of "win" anyway).

Try some "agility" work. This doesn't need to be elaborate - even something like a sturdy, strong wooden or plastic storage box will do it to begin with. Tell her "hup!" and when she's up, offer the food reward and praise. If she doesn't want the food, don't worry about it. Just keep smiling and tell her how very clever she is. Puff out your chest to show how proud you are of her talent. Then indicate to get down and tell her "off". Repeat with the praise but no food. Repeat "hup" and offer food and praise. Continue with two or three of these repeats.

Hmm maybe, what do you suggest I do if Im faced with the situation like last night, she was surrendering at the puzzle, this was before dinner, so should I have fasted her and waited it out? or just put it away and fed her like I ended up doing?

Ill have a go at some basic agility stuff with her

[Erny]

Does she readily eat her meals when you leave them for her?

[GoldenGirl85]

Does she readily eat her meals when you leave them for her?

Yes, she inhales her food, Ive taken to watering her chicken mince down so its like soup, and her kibble gets scattered on the lawn, which is when we play the 'break' game

[Erny]

Ok .... have a look at the "Triangle of Temptation" (TOT) program pinned at the top of this training forum. Follow that as a guide. What I'd look for first is merely her learning to engage eye contact (focus) and build up on that. You should find that following the program (I haven't read it for a while so I can't remember how far it actually explains to .... but it is pretty much "the sky is the limit" in terms of what you can do with it) you will enhance training skills and pack drive.

But start little. Make it easy for your girl to win. That will encourage her to begin to try.

Still do the "agility" (so to speak) exercise I mentioned.

And also, a run in the rain can be loads of fun, even for dogs who would otherwise cringe at a single rain drop falling on their back. The trick is to make it active and fast .

[GoldenGirl85]

Ok .... have a look at the "Triangle of Temptation" (TOT) program pinned at the top of this training forum. Follow that as a guide. What I'd look for first is merely her learning to engage eye contact (focus) and build up on that. You should find that following the program (I haven't read it for a while so I can't remember how far it actually explains to .... but it is pretty much "the sky is the limit" in terms of what you can do with it) you will enhance training skills and pack drive.

But start little. Make it easy for your girl to win. That will encourage her to begin to try.

Still do the "agility" (so to speak) exercise I mentioned.

And also, a run in the rain can be loads of fun, even for dogs who would otherwise cringe at a single rain drop falling on their back. The trick is to make it active and fast .

Thanks Erny, Ive never really read that thread much, but mostly because I have trouble keeping track when Im reading massive posts like that, Ive just printed it off Steves website so I can read through it properly

[Erny]

Thanks Erny, Ive never really read that thread much, but mostly because I have trouble keeping track when Im reading massive posts like that, Ive just printed it off Steves website so I can read through it properly

All I'd suggest you concern yourself and your dog with at the moment is the initial phase of TOT. Keep it really basic. IE Your dog must wait (so tie out if you must) and must make eye contact with you. At the very second of eye contact say "yes" and "free" (or whatever your release command is) and in that very instance release her to let her have her meal.

Just use some patience until she catches on. Wait next to her. Give her a minute to think it out. Some dogs will make the eye contact just because they are wondering what the heck you are doing (or why you are not doing anything ...... they are so used to us being impatient, lol). But if she doesn't offer the eye contact you can help her out by making a noise (click your tongue or something) to encourage her to look up.

If she's not a dog that will easily make eye contact, then you can reward ("yes" and "free" .... and let her have her meal) if she turns her head in your general direction; or glances in your general direction. And then bit by bit making it so that she will actually make the eye contact.

[GoldenGirl85]

Thanks Erny, Ive never really read that thread much, but mostly because I have trouble keeping track when Im reading massive posts like that, Ive just printed it off Steves website so I can read through it properly

All I'd suggest you concern yourself and your dog with at the moment is the initial phase of TOT. Keep it really basic. IE Your dog must wait (so tie out if you must) and must make eye contact with you. At the very second of eye contact say "yes" and "free" (or whatever your release command is) and in that very instance release her to let her have her meal.

Just use some patience until she catches on. Wait next to her. Give her a minute to think it out. Some dogs will make the eye contact just because they are wondering what the heck you are doing (or why you are not doing anything ...... they are so used to us being impatient, lol). But if she doesn't offer the eye contact you can help her out by making a noise (click your tongue or something) to encourage her to look up.

If she's not a dog that will easily make eye contact, then you can reward ("yes" and "free" .... and let her have her meal) if she turns her head in your general direction; or glances in your general direction. And then bit by bit making it so that she will actually make the eye contact.

I already do that already, and its when I release her that she will be hesitant about taking it, do you think I should use a different word other than break?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi GoldenGirl85

What Erny said - about your GR working out that "surrendering" or shutting down is the fastest way to get what she wants is probably right.

So from the Susan Garrett seminar, she credits Bob Skinner (extraordinary animal trainer) with this "It's ok to finish on failure" ie it's ok to stop even when the dog has not figured out what it's meant to be doing. It's not ok to reward that though.

And SG is big on "balance breaks" ie after several attempts and failures or just five minutes of successful working - have a break - play bit of tug, have a bit of fun. Do something different. Like a "coffee" break for humans. The idea being to return to the session with a bit more focus.

So if my dog "shuts down" (ie surrenders), I try not to reward that. I just stand there looking as stupid as her, until she does ANYTHING. And then I "yes" and treat each different offering. Except barking. I don't want her barking at me out of frustration - we get more than enough of that already. If she does that - I turn my back on her or end the game.

I do most of my training before dinner. Some of it I do with the dinner. Eg the TOT. But I've varied that - she has to "focus forward" ie actually look at her dinner bowl before I release. Because in Agility - I want her to be looking at the first obstacle - not me.

And I don't repeat the release word - otherwise I think it's like saying "sit sit sit sit sit". But I have a different release word for "permission to eat your dinner" to all the other release words. I find the release word - for start an agility run - being the same as the release word for "go play/sniff" or "go eat" confusing too. So I'm thinking about having different ones.

I'm also thinking about keeping training records - sigh.

[Erny]

I already do that already, and its when I release her that she will be hesitant about taking it, do you think I should use a different word other than break?

How hesitant? If the word itself really is a big problem to her, then I might change it, if it were me. But if it is just hesitation and then goes to the food, I'd stick with the word. Just release to the food and then leave her rather than standing there to watch her.

Also - if she'll play with toys, teach her 'tug' and use "break" as her release word. This should be quite an active game yet a short one. Is something that she might engage in without hesitating and can also help build confidence.

ETA: Sorry - just read MRB's post and see that she's already mentioned playing tug.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Erny

[GoldenGirl85]

I already do that already, and its when I release her that she will be hesitant about taking it, do you think I should use a different word other than break?

How hesitant? If the word itself really is a big problem to her, then I might change it, if it were me. But if it is just hesitation and then goes to the food, I'd stick with the word. Just release to the food and then leave her rather than standing there to watch her.

Also - if she'll play with toys, teach her 'tug' and use "break" as her release word. This should be quite an active game yet a short one. Is something that she might engage in without hesitating and can also help build confidence.

ETA: Sorry - just read MRB's post and see that she's already mentioned playing tug.

When I release her she will move her weight forward, look back at me, I say it again (I know Im not supposed to) she will inch towards the food, sometimes I have to tell her about 4 times before she will go for it...should I just leave her to it once Ive said it the first time?

Ive been teaching her 'give' as a release from tug, but we dont have any words for the action of tugging as yet, she doesnt seem to catch on when I say "tug tug tug" when we are actually tugging lol

My girl is speshal

[GoldenGirl85]

Hi GoldenGirl85

What Erny said - about your GR working out that "surrendering" or shutting down is the fastest way to get what she wants is probably right.

Im starting to think she is playing dumb now lol

So from the Susan Garrett seminar, she credits Bob Skinner (extraordinary animal trainer) with this "It's ok to finish on failure" ie it's ok to stop even when the dog has not figured out what it's meant to be doing. It's not ok to reward that though.

So in the situation I had last night, she was 'working' for dinner, but she surrendered, so should I have packed it up and gone inside and waited before she had her dinner? (I was getting eaten alive by mozzies...insect repellant tonight I think lol)

And SG is big on "balance breaks" ie after several attempts and failures or just five minutes of successful working - have a break - play bit of tug, have a bit of fun. Do something different. Like a "coffee" break for humans. The idea being to return to the session with a bit more focus.

So if my dog "shuts down" (ie surrenders), I try not to reward that. I just stand there looking as stupid as her, until she does ANYTHING. And then I "yes" and treat each different offering. Except barking. I don't want her barking at me out of frustration - we get more than enough of that already. If she does that - I turn my back on her or end the game.

I do most of my training before dinner. Some of it I do with the dinner. Eg the TOT. But I've varied that - she has to "focus forward" ie actually look at her dinner bowl before I release. Because in Agility - I want her to be looking at the first obstacle - not me.

And I don't repeat the release word - otherwise I think it's like saying "sit sit sit sit sit". But I have a different release word for "permission to eat your dinner" to all the other release words. I find the release word - for start an agility run - being the same as the release word for "go play/sniff" or "go eat" confusing too. So I'm thinking about having different ones.

I'm also thinking about keeping training records - sigh.

thanks, ill keep all this in mind