Please Help!

[Alfie02]

Hi all,

So long story short - my family dog since I was a a kid is a backyard bred maltese cross who has always had temperament issues despite adequate socilization. His mother was human aggresive and unfortunatly so is he (we didnt know this untill after we got him). Anyway, ever since he was little, even at puppy school he has been unreliable around people and is dog aggressive aswell. When we began to notice this undesirable behaviour we took him to a behavouralist who told us he is fear aggressive. We worked on him as she told us to and took him back for more visits but nothing was working, if anything he was getting worse. So we went to someone else who came to our house and did what he said, but again to no avail. We accepted him how he was, but continued to work with him everyday and are very careful with who he meets and dogs he meets.

In his life he has bitten 3 people, all people who have entered the house or been walking past (I know, horrible that he has done this and we do everything that we can to avoid this, but when we tell people that he is aggressive and will bite them, they usually dont believe us because he is white and cute, silly people.) He will even go to bite us on occasions when he doesnt want to do something.

The main reason for this post is that on Christmas day we were walking the dogs and two older ladies stopped to say Merry Christmas, not paying any attention to the dogs or anything, which is great because if the people just ignore our dog he will ignore them too and will not show any aggression. When we were talking, only for like 30 seconds, our dog stepped forwards, wagging his tail and bit the woman on the leg! Now I didnt even have time to stop him, he just did it . The woman only has a tiny scratch,but still, he bit her! This is the first time he has ever done this in a situation like this and I feel so horrible....I dont know what to do, we try so hard to 'fix' his problems but get now where. We are now going to buy a muzzle that he will wear whenever we are out.We are responsible dog owners who love our dogs and dont know what to do. I am devistated . I walked home crying that he could bite an old lady (he loves my grandma and this lady even looks like her, but he still bit her).

Can anyone please recommmend a proffesional trainer/behavouralist that specialises in this in the Newcastle NSW area?

Thank you.

PS. this is cross posted in the training section.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

For NSW most people will recommend K9Pro:

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

[GoldenGirl85]

No advice sorry, but until you do get this sorted out Id be muzzling him in public...its not worth the risk of it happening again

[frufru]

Just wanted to say good luck with Alfie

[Staranais]

For NSW most people will recommend K9Pro:

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

Snap!

[Erny]

I agree - book a consultation with Steve (K9 Pro). He'll help not only your dog, but will show you ways so that you will learn the appropriate management skills to walk your dog safely. A muzzle is not out of the question, as that will (a) generally solve the problem of people approaching your dog (b) give you more confidence and © prevent another bite. Steve might be away on a Christmas break and you might need to wait a while for an available booking (he tries to push the urgents in) so you could use the muzzle in the meanwhile. Use a basket muzzle (not a soft one) so that your dog can breath pant (panting being the dog's cooling system) and pick times and places where you can as best as possible avoiding coming across people in close proximity. Make sure your collar and lead are sound and that your dog has no chance of slipping the collar. But if an appointment is not that far away, then you might be able to just not go out until you get to see Steve. Hang in there and don't despair.

PS .... Whilst you might be waiting for an appointment to see Steve, I'd probably be inclined to have a blood workup/general Vet Check done on your dog, to rule out anything medical that could be contributing to the aggression. Chances are there are not, but if it is the case that all socialisation and training was followed properly (and that you were properly advised) it would be worth ruling this out as a possible contributing cause. Steve might not ask for this but it would be something I'd be inclined to do. If you're seeing the Vet it would be worth while having a soft cloth muzzle fitted first so that the Vet can get a chance to have a good check around and remain unbitten.

Edited for grammatical reasons.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Erny

[Alfie02]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will be contacting K9 Pro in the next couple of days to ask about my problem....

FruFru, its not Alfie who is the dog in my post, Alfie is my other boy who is a little timid but very loveable and likes to meet new people, one pat and a tummy scratch and he is yours The dog in my post is my 11 year old boy called Teddy (the first boy in my sig), he is a beautiful boy but needs help from a proffesional to fix his problems.

Thank you for the good luck and well wishes though

Golden girl, my thoughts exactly, we will be getting a soft muzzle as soon as the shops here open again after the holiday.

Ooops just read your post Erny, will not go soft muzzle then, will go basket muzzle. He actually has just been to the vets before this incident as he has seemed depressed and off colour. He was given a clean bill of health. But after this bite he is going back as soon as the vets reopen after the holiday and getting checked again as it really is a big shock that he would do this. After 11 years you think you would know your dog hey. So vets are a definate yes.

Also, if this is relevant. He is just a different dog at the vets. Anyone can pat him, the vets can do anything to him and he wont flinch, he likes every vet and vet nurse he meets, he also likes to meet other dogs at the vets. When he gets his hair clipped at the mobile dog wash, the lady said to us that he is one of the most well behaved dogs she has ever clipped. So we are stumped as to why he is aggressive at other times???? Ahhh its so hard to work this out

Edited December 26, 2010 by Alfie02

[Staranais]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will be contacting K9 Pro in the next couple of days to ask about my problem....

Please do. Like I said in the training thread, I would travel a considerable distance for a consultation with Steve if I had a dog with any aggression issue.

[corvus]

Robert Stabler is in the Newcastle area and has helped my family in the past with dog aggression. He is very good. http://www.stablerbehaviour.com.au/

[Dogsfevr]

Okay ready to be flamed but the dog is now 11 yrs old.

How is it eye sight?

Does it have good hearing???

Has it ever worn a muzzle ??? keeping in mind some dogs totally freak when wearing one & at 11 yrs you need to keep in mind the stress it may cause .

Your dog simply may not walk with a muzzle on so you will need to introduce it it slowly & see how the dog accepts it.

[Alfie02]

Hi Corvus, what sort of techniques did this trainer use? As I work alot during the holidays and will be hard pressed to find time to travel 2 and a half hours away (but will definatley do this if this is the best option).

Staranais, havent had a chance to check the training thread yet, will pop in their now and read your post

[Alfie02]

Showdog, very relevant questions. His eye sight is ok, but starting to get worse and we think his hearing might be starting to go....he doesnt hear us come home anymore when he used to be waiting at the door for us........do you think this would be contributing to his change of attitude towards people?

He is a pretty relaxed boy when it comes to wearing new things (as he was a family dog when we were kids we would dress him up in all sorts of thigs, lol), but will keep this in mind when getting a muzzle.

[persephone]

Dressing a dog up when it is young is one thing... demanding a muzzle is worn is another .

The muzzle needs to be correctly FITTED prior to purchase..and needs to be of a very open weave basket type - being an older dog, coated, and with hot muggy weather- Teddy will need to be able to open his mouth and pant when out & about.

His waning eyesight/hearing could well affect his sensing of people- and you need to perhaps change teh way he is presented with new people.

Asking about techniques used by a trainer may not be very helpful .. as every dog is different, as is every home/family dynamic and doggy routine

What is a useful management tool for one person/dog may not be at all suited to another, unfortunately ...and 'trying' different techniques without experienced assessment/support can sometimes make things worse.

Hoping you and Teddy get the help you need soon - so he can be made to feel more comfortable, and so you are equipped with new skills

[Erny]

Showdog, very relevant questions. His eye sight is ok, but starting to get worse and we think his hearing might be starting to go....he doesnt hear us come home anymore when he used to be waiting at the door for us........do you think this would be contributing to his change of attitude towards people?

Sorry Alfie02 .... but from what you've written in your OP this is not a "change of attitude". I took it that it is an attitude that has simply been progressively worsening. Having said that, a change to hearing and sight can serve to amplify reactions but I wouldn't put them down as the cause as you've written that the cause has been there for a very long time.

Apologies to Showdog - don't mean to be jumping in on the question as it was directed towards you, but I don't think that this dog's behaviour should be attributed to sight and hearing changes. Being 11yo and being a dog who has behaved the way he has from puppy age it is unlikely that a lot will be able to be achieved towards behaviour modification but that is not to say that inroads to improvement are out of the question and as I mentioned, techniques/strategies for management (both at home and out) will assist. As part of your leadership for your dog you will need to take into account that he doesn't see nor hear as well these days and stand in and up for him (ie protect him) from things he thinks could harm him.

[Alfie02]

Sorry, yes Erny, he has shown this behaviour ALL his life, but has never just bitten some poor old lady who is just standing there. I guess im just trying to protect him from seeming like a horrible 'small white fluffy dog' that lots of people dislike by blaming it on his old age....but in reality, he is one of 'those' dogs I guess, and I know its our fault as owners for him being like this....but on Christmas day my family and I decided to get proffessional help again, but this time find a behavouralist who is reccomended by others so we might see some results.

I dont mean for this to sound defensive at all, I am so greatful for the information and recommendations I have been given and am so happy to have help and support from others who know about this sort of thing, Thank you

[corvus]

Hi Corvus, what sort of techniques did this trainer use? As I work alot during the holidays and will be hard pressed to find time to travel 2 and a half hours away (but will definatley do this if this is the best option).

He's a vet behaviourist. My family has had him out twice and I'm not entirely sure what went down as I didn't live at home at the time. I saw the assessment from one, though, and he was very thorough, looking for any small environmental change that might be a trigger to a change in behaviour. He didn't give a very good prognosis for that one, as it was a rescue dog with no bite inhibition that was fighting with our other dog. He basically said the only way to keep both dogs safe was to permanently separate them. That turned out to be the case. Eventually the other dog almost lost an eye and someone got badly bitten trying to break up the fight. He did give some excellent general advice about dog fights, though.

The other one was also a sad case. A bit like your dog - born on the timid side, but he was reliably aggressive in most situations. He was, quite frankly, dangerous. I'm not sure what the assessment was, but I heard second hand that he was considered a serious risk and in the end my family decided they could not offer him a home where he could ever feel safe.

My family were very happy with Dr Stabler and would never see anyone else. The wait might be a bit shorter than for K9Pro.

ETA Incidentally, the dog that was born timid and aggressive... He was just LIKE that. I knew him from an early age and he was always different. Like nothing I'd ever seen. The closest I've seen since is my little Erik, who has a comparable proactive, outspoken kind of attitude, but a much higher fear threshold (thank goodness!). Sometimes it's not entirely the owner's fault. It's hard to know what to do with a dog that falls outside the norm, especially when no one else knows what to do about it. My family had several trainers give advice for that dog that made him worse. Mostly no one realised he wasn't a normal dog, and all the normal things you'd do for a dog were very stressful to him and he hated it. I don't think that is my family's fault that they didn't realise and didn't find better advice early on.

Edited December 26, 2010 by corvus

[Erny]

I guess im just trying to protect him from seeming like a horrible 'small white fluffy dog' that lots of people dislike by blaming it on his old age....but in reality, he is one of 'those' dogs I guess, and I know its our fault as owners for him being like this....but on Christmas day my family and I decided to get proffessional help again, but this time find a behavouralist who is reccomended by others so we might see some results.

I dont mean for this to sound defensive at all, I am so greatful for the information and recommendations I have been given and am so happy to have help and support from others who know about this sort of thing, Thank you

No - it's great that you are stepping out and asking for help. Don't know what sort of 'help' you received at the outset and not inclined to ask because I think under the circumstances it will prove irrelevant for this thread.

If I had a dog with aggro issues I couldn't deal with I'd be knocking on Steve's door as well. With the co-operation of the dog's owners he's renowned for having many successful (even trying) cases.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Erny

[Alfie02]

Thanks for the info Corvus . I think that after the public holiday has passed, I will contact both Dr Stabler and K9 Pro and see what they say and then go from there.

Also from your post on the previous page Erny...do you think it is worthwhile trying to fix Teddy's problems now at his late age? Do you think we will get any improvement? I would really like to be able to trust my dog with people and other dogs, do you think this could be possible?

Edited December 26, 2010 by Alfie02

[Erny]

Thanks for the info Corvus . I think that after the public holiday has passed, I will contact both Dr Stabler and K9 Pro and see what they say and then go from there.

Also from your post on the previous page Erny...do you think it is worthwhile trying to fix Teddy's problems now at his late age? Do you think we will get any improvement? I would really like to be able to trust my dog with people and other dogs, do you think this could be possible?

My disclaimer is that I haven't met you nor your dog. But with that said, my answer to you is that I don't think it is ever too late to make things better for a 'troubled' dog. I expect you will see improvement and that will most likely be a reflection of your dog's increased faith that you will take steps (ie strategies) to ensure his safety, but after all these years I doubt very much that you'll end up with a dog that you'll be able to trust around people or other dogs. But with controls in place, you might find you can more easily enjoy the company of other people in the proximity of your dog. Very difficult to say without knowing your dog and this is something that only a consult would give a glimpse to. I would also expect your dog to recognise a new found level of leadership in you as well - and that would be very welcoming by an ageing dog. Like taking a load of responsibility off him.

So if the question was :

"Do you think there is any worthwhile gain in seeing a Behaviourist and working on the current behaviour issue (whether that be at behaviour and/or management level)?" the answer is a resounding "yes". It will take effort from you though. It sounds to me as though you love your dog enough to do it and regardless of anything else you will most likely learn a mountain's worth of knowledge and experience from it and potentially also set you up well for when one day you have another dog.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Erny

[Alfie02]

Excellent, thanks Erny I know he wont ever be perfect, but ANY improvement would be better than how he is behaving now. And I would love to take the weight off his shoulders by becoming a better leader for him, and im sure my other dog would benifit from that too

Yes I do love him with all my heart and will always love him regardless of his temperament. But it must stress him out being so tense around other people and dogs so improving his behaviour will be great for him. And hopefully he can be a well behaved small white fluffy dog that people dont look at and shake their heads, but a respectable dog who can represent other small white fluffy dogs well.

Thanks again for all the help and I will keep you all updated on what I end up doing and Teddy's proggress

Edited December 26, 2010 by Alfie02