Herding Question.

[whitka]

Are non herding breeds allowed to give it a go? I dont mean trailing but go to training or herding clinics.

[sandra64]

Are non herding breeds allowed to give it a go? I dont mean trailing but go to training or herding clinics.

Yes whitka, anyone can have a go....if you think your dog has a bit of instinct...what sort of dog do you hav?Are we talking Toby?. Your instructor will soon tell you if you have one that may pick it up anyway

Edited December 25, 2010 by sandra64

[whitka]

Yeah Toby, he's a Golden Retriever I would love to give it a go with him he seems to be really interested in sheep.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

If a Lab can, why not a Goldie?.

[whitka]

Is there anywhere I can go to which is close to Gippsland?

[JulesP]

I train at Nyora. Email Kate on [email protected]

I imagine that whether you are allowed to train a non-herding breed would be at the discretion of the trainer.

Paul McPhail also does training at Port Welshpool.

[dasha]

The clubs in Sydney only allow working dogs and their crosses (generally).

I guess it would depend on what purpose you hope to achieve by doing herding with a non herding breed.

Honestly a lot of non herding bred dogs do not have the right instincts for trying to control a number of prey animals and their interest can quickly turn to a chase instinct in which case you will then have frightened, panic sticken sheep trying to escape the "wolf" and run into fences, people or whatever is in their path while novice people run around in a panic trying to control the dog.

So if you are looking for a sport to enhance your dogs life, perhaps retrieving training may be a more fulfilling sport for your dog to be able to enjoy.

Not having a go at you but just trying to point out that herding is a specialised instinct and when sheep aren't being worked appropriately dogs, sheep and people can be injured.

The other point that frustrates me about people jumping on the band wagon of herding is that a lot of animal welfare groups like to "blend" in the crowd at sheep trialling and herding events as they feel that these sports are cruel to sheep. the last thing they need to see is out of control dogs and sheep being run around in hot weather, being bitten, chased because these groups would like to ban ALL sheepdog events. So little "harmless" incidents by a typically placid breed of dog, do not come over well with the sheepdog trialling fraternity who have worked hard to protect and improve the sport to have it banned by amateur people trying to let their dog have a bit of fun..

Even at a major sheep dog event, many experienced triallers will leave the ring if the sheep are too runny as it does nothing for the sheep, the dog or the spectators to see crazy shhep and a dog trying to get to the head to pull them up. Trials will also be stopped if the temperature gets too hot it is a danger to the sheep to be worked and the the dog working.

If you do want to take your dog to a herding place, it would be wise for you to do some training and try to get an off lead stop command and a recall (under all conditions and distractions so at least if things go pear shaped you will have some chance of catching your dog and protecting the sheep.

[jesomil]

Good post Dasha, I agree.

[sandra64]

Hey Whitka, Look in my experience up here in Queensland, no instructor i know of lets a dog in with their sheep off leash anyway until they are assessed. There is no harm in going to a reputable facility (maybe you could get in touch with diggers herding down your way for at least someone to talk to), and having someone let you know whether you may be able to have a try at least....I know where i go, a leash is never dropped until our instructor is satisfied his sheep are ok.

[JulesP]

The other point that frustrates me about people jumping on the band wagon of herding is that a lot of animal welfare groups like to "blend" in the crowd at sheep trialling and herding events as they feel that these sports are cruel to sheep. the last thing they need to see is out of control dogs and sheep being run around in hot weather, being bitten, chased because these groups would like to ban ALL sheepdog events. So little "harmless" incidents by a typically placid breed of dog, do not come over well with the sheepdog trialling fraternity who have worked hard to protect and improve the sport to have it banned by amateur people trying to let their dog have a bit of fun..

Even at a major sheep dog event, many experienced triallers will leave the ring if the sheep are too runny as it does nothing for the sheep, the dog or the spectators to see crazy shhep and a dog trying to get to the head to pull them up. Trials will also be stopped if the temperature gets too hot it is a danger to the sheep to be worked and the the dog working.

Care to clarify what you mean by amateur?

[dasha]

I call an amateur person someone that has a few pet dogs of working breed origin that feels they would like to have a go at letting their pooch have a play with some stock. An amateur person has little general knowledge of basic sheep care, behaviour, requirements, care and welfare. So when someone lets their pooch have a little play and pooch gets a little excited, an amatuer person will not recognize these sheep have now changed from being trusting to being a little frightened and intervene and tell that perosn to take thier dog out. And that amatuer person will not think to take their dog out because Rover isn't going to hurt the sheep, he wouldn't hurt a fly, so keep letting Rover frolic around and run useless circles around the sheep without trying to calm the sheep. They stop when their time is up in the class. Then the next person goes in, the sheep are blowing hard because Rover was having a good time, but this is now Daisy's turn and handler doesn't want to let that precious time lapse to let sheep get breath back. Daisy will get her turn.

[Vickie]

Not having a go at you but just trying to point out that herding is a specialised instinct and when sheep aren't being worked appropriately dogs, sheep and people can be injured.

Totally agree, but I would take that even a step further and wonder what people feel they have to gain, by attempting to train a dog in an activity for which it is unsuited. I don't have an issue with amateurs trying their working breed out on sheep. Everyone starts as an amateur at some point & an amateur handler & green dog can develop skill, a promising future & a lifelong passion.

What irritates me is when people persist with a dog who is clearly never going to develop into any kind of useful stockdog. What is the point? Just so the dog can have fun? at the expense of the stock? Is the dog truly having more fun than it would in a variety of dogspots?

I guess where I am different is that I don't think of sheepwork as a dogsport, like I do agility or flyball etc, probably primarily because my dogs don't think of it as a fun sport. It is much more serious to them than any game or sport we could play & I respect that with them & for them.

I believe there is nothing more beautiful than a sheepdog working with talent, skill & instinct...

I also believe there is nothing more awful than a dog who is either out of control & dangerous to stock or a dog who performs with robot like obedience on stock, even if they do no harm.

I don't mean the above to be offensive, it is just how I feel.

[JulesP]

I call an amateur person someone that has a few pet dogs of working breed origin that feels they would like to have a go at letting their pooch have a play with some stock. An amateur person has little general knowledge of basic sheep care, behaviour, requirements, care and welfare. So when someone lets their pooch have a little play and pooch gets a little excited, an amatuer person will not recognize these sheep have now changed from being trusting to being a little frightened and intervene and tell that perosn to take thier dog out. And that amatuer person will not think to take their dog out because Rover isn't going to hurt the sheep, he wouldn't hurt a fly, so keep letting Rover frolic around and run useless circles around the sheep without trying to calm the sheep. They stop when their time is up in the class. Then the next person goes in, the sheep are blowing hard because Rover was having a good time, but this is now Daisy's turn and handler doesn't want to let that precious time lapse to let sheep get breath back. Daisy will get her turn.

I find it interesting that you have such a negative view of the word 'amateur'. Unless a person has a sheep farm or is training working dogs to sell anyone doing 3 sheep trials, yard trials or ANKC herding is an amateur IMO.

Is it ANKC herding you have a problem with? ANKC herding has strict temperature controls. Dogs gets stopped very quickly too if anything looks like going wrong. Most of the trials I have been to the people pull their dogs up before the judge intervenes though.

At all the training places i have been to the instructor handles the dog first to see what is going to happen. The owner and dog are only allowed to have a go if it is apparent the dog is ok with the sheep.

The sheep get changed regularly and I haven't seen any sheep abuse.

Is a Goldie a good breed to do herding with, well no. Didn't feel like saying that on a public forum though and know my instructor will handle it gracefully and in a way that will leave the OP feeling good.

[sandra64]

I call an amateur person someone that has a few pet dogs of working breed origin that feels they would like to have a go at letting their pooch have a play with some stock. An amateur person has little general knowledge of basic sheep care, behaviour, requirements, care and welfare. So when someone lets their pooch have a little play and pooch gets a little excited, an amatuer person will not recognize these sheep have now changed from being trusting to being a little frightened and intervene and tell that perosn to take thier dog out. And that amatuer person will not think to take their dog out because Rover isn't going to hurt the sheep, he wouldn't hurt a fly, so keep letting Rover frolic around and run useless circles around the sheep without trying to calm the sheep. They stop when their time is up in the class. Then the next person goes in, the sheep are blowing hard because Rover was having a good time, but this is now Daisy's turn and handler doesn't want to let that precious time lapse to let sheep get breath back. Daisy will get her turn.

I find it interesting that you have such a negative view of the word 'amateur'. Unless a person has a sheep farm or is training working dogs to sell anyone doing 3 sheep trials, yard trials or ANKC herding is an amateur IMO.

Is it ANKC herding you have a problem with? ANKC herding has strict temperature controls. Dogs gets stopped very quickly too if anything looks like going wrong. Most of the trials I have been to the people pull their dogs up before the judge intervenes though.

At all the training places i have been to the instructor handles the dog first to see what is going to happen. The owner and dog are only allowed to have a go if it is apparent the dog is ok with the sheep.

I agree with Jules. My instructor is into trials and judges. He makes a living out of training dogs....He does not knock back anyone who asks, but once he sees the dog, he knows pretty quickly if the dog is going to work...My dog is a bench kelpie,who in fact loves to work. yes we are amateurs, but we are learning as we go. Is that so wrong.Just because we are not on a 1,000 hectare sheep farm,we should not have a go

The sheep get changed regularly and I haven't seen any sheep abuse.

Is a Goldie a good breed to do herding with, well no. Didn't feel like saying that on a public forum though and know my instructor will handle it gracefully and in a way that will leave the OP feeling good.

Edited December 26, 2010 by sandra64

[sandra64]

My girl is not of working line kelpies she is a bench , but she has a great time, and has a great time weaving and to put her 3 sheep through her obstacles, and can keep them under control in the bigger paddock when out there, but as far as your concerned she should not be doing it, because she hasnt earnt the right too. Thats like me saying well we ride 80k mountain biking some sunday mornings, shorter all the other weeks, but your not up to our standard so dont bother practicing.

Edited December 26, 2010 by sandra64

[dasha]

I don't know how some of the people that have replied on here have made my comments about them.

I asked what was the purpose of taking a dog not bred or designed for an activity and some of the things that can happen when inexperienced people take their pooch to see how they go with a naturally flighty prey animal.

I then gave advice on some lessons she could teach her dog BEFORE going to help the situation.

And from that you have assumed I am against ANKC herding and only like people that work and sell to people that do 3 sheep trials and yard dog trials..............

Some very vivid imaginations around here..Must be the eggnog

[JulesP]

I don't know how some of the people that have replied on here have made my comments about them.

I asked what was the purpose of taking a dog not bred or designed for an activity and some of the things that can happen when inexperienced people take their pooch to see how they go with a naturally flighty prey animal.

I then gave advice on some lessons she could teach her dog BEFORE going to help the situation.

And from that you have assumed I am against ANKC herding and only like people that work and sell to people that do 3 sheep trials and yard dog trials..............

Some very vivid imaginations around here..Must be the eggnog

Well who are these 'amateur' persons that are chasing sheep around that you speak of?

[Vickie]

I suspect amateur wasn't the best choice of words but I know exactly the type of people Dasha is referring to.

They are the ones whose dog never improves

they are the people who never recognise that their dog is not suitable

they are the ones who yell & scream, chasing their dog constantly with a stick

they are the ones who do not seek to learn more about working dogs or even realise there is more to learn

they are the ones who never attempt to learn about sheep & instead think of them as no more than a means to their dog having fun

they are the ones who think it's ok to come every week with a muzzle on their dog

they are the ones who treat experienced trainers with disrespect

they are the ones who come with a picnic purely to have a day out with their friends

they are the ones who put photos of their dogs chasing sheep with intent on their websites

they are the ones who advertise their puppies as suitable for herding since the parents chased sheep around a yard once a month for a couple of years.

I envy the state of Victoria if they don't have these people. Maybe we could send you a few of ours.

[dasha]

Well summed up Vickie.

Thanks for explaining it so well.

[JulesP]

I suspect amateur wasn't the best choice of words but I know exactly the type of people Dasha is referring to.

They are the ones whose dog never improves

they are the people who never recognise that their dog is not suitable

they are the ones who yell & scream, chasing their dog constantly with a stick

they are the ones who do not seek to learn more about working dogs or even realise there is more to learn

they are the ones who never attempt to learn about sheep & instead think of them as no more than a means to their dog having fun

they are the ones who think it's ok to come every week with a muzzle on their dog

they are the ones who treat experienced trainers with disrespect

they are the ones who come with a picnic purely to have a day out with their friends

they are the ones who put photos of their dogs chasing sheep with intent on their websites

they are the ones who advertise their puppies as suitable for herding since the parents chased sheep around a yard once a month for a couple of years.

I envy the state of Victoria if they don't have these people. Maybe we could send you a few of ours.

I am honestly quite baffled by this . The only thing I can relate to is the picnic as we usually have a nice lunch on clinic days and I have made some great friends in my herding group.