Am I The Only One These Days?

[abed]

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

Amen to that. Anything that sees a dog get walked (as opposed to never leaving the yard) is a good thing IMO.

Of course that sad thing is that its really not that difficult to train a dog to walk on a loose lead with the right method. It's even easier if you start pups off that way.

You are saying Poodlefan, that a lunging dog walked on a Halti with it's head snapped around violently is a good thing???............sorry, I don't share that perspective and would rather see that dog in the backyard until the owner is taught properly how to handle the dog.

[abed]

'Staranais' date='23rd Dec 2010 - 09:42 PM' post='5041273']

I do think it's a little sad to go to the obedience schools where the answer for every pulling dog appears to be to just immediately stick it in a halti. I've been to volunteer run obedience schools where that appeared to be the standard recommendation for any pulling dog. I don't know if they did that because the trainers didn't know how to train a nice loose leash walk, or whether the trainers just assumed that all handlers were lazy or unmotivated or couldn't be bothered to teach the dog to walk nicely.

That is "exactly" my point which I have seen too many times to be comfortable with that type of instruction.

[corvus]

Wow, I'm not used to people openly agreeing with me. Must be that Christmas spirit.

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

Amen to that. Anything that sees a dog get walked (as opposed to never leaving the yard) is a good thing IMO.

Of course that sad thing is that its really not that difficult to train a dog to walk on a loose lead with the right method. It's even easier if you start pups off that way.

You are saying Poodlefan, that a lunging dog walked on a Halti with it's head snapped around violently is a good thing???............sorry, I don't share that perspective and would rather see that dog in the backyard until the owner is taught properly how to handle the dog.

I'm not speaking for PF, but I think it is hard to weigh up what is ultimately best for a dog we don't really know. What saddens me is seeing dogs that don't know how to be dogs and are frightened of the world in general because they rarely leave the yard. To me, that is a ticking time bomb. The chances of it developing serious behavioural problems are, I believe, high. Fear is behind most aggression problems. What happens if it bites someone? Can we rely on a person that couldn't be bothered to train the dog to walk on a loose leash to get professional help with an aggression problem?

Say that dog gets walked on some sort of no-pull device instead. There are several to choose from, so maybe it doesn't end up on a head collar. If it does end up on a head collar, maybe it's one of those dogs that respond well to it and it lives happily ever after. Maybe it sometimes gets excited and lunges on the head collar and its head gets snapped around. Still, it's not sitting in the yard being a ticking time bomb. I can live with that. If it's doing this a lot, then I would rather it went on a no-pull harness than go and sit in the yard until the owner somehow magically procures the skills to handle the dog.

If we pretend for a moment that it's even our business, to me there are several steps that have to go wrong before a dog being walked on a head collar is not better off than a dog not being walked at all. I wouldn't argue that there might be circumstances where a dog on a head collar (or a check chain or prong collar) is worse off than a dog not being walked at all, but I think we're talking about a minority, and there are still potential ways to solve that problem with a tool better suited before the owner has to learn to handle the dog without any management tools. So, I don't think it's a very realistic comparison. If you want to rant about head collars, we have all been there and done that and I think most of us have our misgivings. But this isn't a discussion exclusively about head collars as far as I'm aware.

[abed]

Wow, I'm not used to people openly agreeing with me. Must be that Christmas spirit.

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

Amen to that. Anything that sees a dog get walked (as opposed to never leaving the yard) is a good thing IMO.

Of course that sad thing is that its really not that difficult to train a dog to walk on a loose lead with the right method. It's even easier if you start pups off that way.

You are saying Poodlefan, that a lunging dog walked on a Halti with it's head snapped around violently is a good thing???............sorry, I don't share that perspective and would rather see that dog in the backyard until the owner is taught properly how to handle the dog.

I'm not speaking for PF, but I think it is hard to weigh up what is ultimately best for a dog we don't really know. What saddens me is seeing dogs that don't know how to be dogs and are frightened of the world in general because they rarely leave the yard. To me, that is a ticking time bomb. The chances of it developing serious behavioural problems are, I believe, high. Fear is behind most aggression problems. What happens if it bites someone? Can we rely on a person that couldn't be bothered to train the dog to walk on a loose leash to get professional help with an aggression problem?

Say that dog gets walked on some sort of no-pull device instead. There are several to choose from, so maybe it doesn't end up on a head collar. If it does end up on a head collar, maybe it's one of those dogs that respond well to it and it lives happily ever after. Maybe it sometimes gets excited and lunges on the head collar and its head gets snapped around. Still, it's not sitting in the yard being a ticking time bomb. I can live with that. If it's doing this a lot, then I would rather it went on a no-pull harness than go and sit in the yard until the owner somehow magically procures the skills to handle the dog.

If we pretend for a moment that it's even our business, to me there are several steps that have to go wrong before a dog being walked on a head collar is not better off than a dog not being walked at all. I wouldn't argue that there might be circumstances where a dog on a head collar (or a check chain or prong collar) is worse off than a dog not being walked at all, but I think we're talking about a minority, and there are still potential ways to solve that problem with a tool better suited before the owner has to learn to handle the dog without any management tools. So, I don't think it's a very realistic comparison. If you want to rant about head collars, we have all been there and done that and I think most of us have our misgivings. But this isn't a discussion exclusively about head collars as far as I'm aware.

I am talking about trainers recommending management tools over teaching proper skills. The petshop or the next door neighbour may recommend a management tool which often happens, but when trainers or obedience instructors do that is what I have a problem with because I believe dog owners who seek assistance from a trainer are looking for something better than that???. I don't think it's good instruction to recommend a tool of restraint as the problem is in the dog which needs addressing. Pulling dogs IMHO need to be taught not to pull, not just stuck on a tool to make the pulling less invasive where I think a trainer has an obligation to provide instruction that improves the dog's instincts and behaviour. The tool whatever is chosen, is a means to achieve a result, not as means to lessen the effects of poor behaviour is the way I see it

Merry Christmas Corvus, can't say I always understand your posts, bit techo for me sometimes, but I enjoy reading your concepts ;)

Edited December 24, 2010 by abed

[Staranais]

I am talking about trainers recommending management tools over teaching proper skills. The petshop or the next door neighbour may recommend a management tool which often happens, but when trainers or obedience instructors do that is what I have a problem with because I believe dog owners who seek assistance from a trainer are looking for something better than that???

I think perhaps it is the job of the trainer to ask the clients what their goals are, and help them to meet those goals.

It is sad if the owner wants the dog to learn not to pull, and the trainer just sticks it into a management device and doesn't address the client's goal. To me, that's a bad trainer.

But for some clients, perhaps their goal is just to make the walk manageable with no more fuss or time or effort than absolutely necessary. For those clients, perhaps a management tool is the right choice.

[abed]

I am talking about trainers recommending management tools over teaching proper skills. The petshop or the next door neighbour may recommend a management tool which often happens, but when trainers or obedience instructors do that is what I have a problem with because I believe dog owners who seek assistance from a trainer are looking for something better than that???

I think perhaps it is the job of the trainer to ask the clients what their goals are, and help them to meet those goals.

It is sad if the owner wants the dog to learn not to pull, and the trainer just sticks it into a management device and doesn't address the client's goal. To me, that's a bad trainer.

But for some clients, perhaps their goal is just to make the walk manageable with no more fuss or time or effort than absolutely necessary. For those clients, perhaps a management tool is the right choice.

I don't know that people commonly hire a trainer or go to obedience classes to just manage behaviour as the people who's interests are behaviour management only from my experience are the one's that trainers and obedience classes rarely see???, I guess there are exceptions, but most attend classes or hire trainers because they have an interest in learning more advanced skills than the average owner who's dog takes them for a walk.

If someone's problem is that their dog pulls on the leash and their goal is to stop it, I teach them accordingly how to achieve that training the dog.

[corvus]

I've only ever been to puppy classes, and I suspect there's a large portion of the population that takes their new puppy to puppy classes and that's about it. If I knew I was possibly only going to get about 6 hours face time with a group of about 6 people, I think I would probably offer up lots of management devices as well. I don't think teaching a puppy to loose leash walk is difficult, but considering the rest of the population seems to have mixed success with it at best, I can only assume it's not that easy and I've been blessed with some easy dogs. If I were a trainer and someone had hired me for a one-on-one lesson, it would be a totally different matter.

[Elsha_UK_AU]

Flat collars but I have swapped to harness' for them both. Cavaliers snort alot (reverse sneeze) and my older boy can get it without even pulling on the lead. I therefore swapped him to a harness and have not had the problem since. He is show trained so trots along beside me rather than running on ahead. My younger boy can pull at times if he is excited so I swapped him to a harness as well.

[AmandaJ]

Both of mine are show trained and move well on a loose lead (other than for the neuter who like to do death rolls in the ring from time to time ) but both are pullers on a normal walk lead for the first few minutes. Isn't it interesting how you can go to a dog show with 600 dogs and they behave like angels but when they see a dog in the street they misbehave?

[poodlemum]

I think its a bit sad that puppy schools are recommending people go straight to a no pull harness, regardless of whether the dog pulls or not, rather than teaching the traditional llw.

Our obedience club won't let you use a check chain but any dog that is naughty or pulls is told to use a halti, which i think is just wrong!

I know personally with my current dog that i would be able to achieve a better result using a check chain if needed than a halti.

As a (Former) Obedience Instructor I agree 100% with this - the Halti is the lazy owner's option - I think any dog can be trained to walk properly on a martingale or check collar if you persevere

[Danois]

I use a check chain - I have excellent control of my dog but if I did have to take quick action for some reason, a flat collar is not going to do anything for a 60kg+ dog.

[sas]

Both of mine are show trained and move well on a loose lead (other than for the neuter who like to do death rolls in the ring from time to time ) but both are pullers on a normal walk lead for the first few minutes. Isn't it interesting how you can go to a dog show with 600 dogs and they behave like angels but when they see a dog in the street they misbehave?

Because it's 2 different sets of skills, in the show ring you're asking the dog to gate around a ring and out and back....all of about 2 minutes with a pretty predictable environment.

Walking a dog you're dealing with a 20+ minute walk with an unpredictable environment and unlimited distractions.

[Mystiqview]

Mine are all show trained. In the ring, they are allowed to run infront a way. If I am walking them to the park or whatever.. they are required to walk "with me". Not official "heel" but with me, not pulling.

When walking, all four are on flat collars and verbal control. I can happily walk four border collies together without them dragging me down the road. I also have a back issue due to breaking it in a horse fall when I was in my 20's.

What I find amazing sometimes is the excuses that people come up with.. Their dog is this or that. It essentially boils down to the person NOT the dog. If the person does not spend the time training it (and that goes for ripping up the furniture), then no one can be blamed BUT the person.

People are generally lazy by nature and people by nature generally will find ways of making life easier.

The excuse by some... "At least the dog gets out for a walk rather than bored stupid in the yard" is misleading. The dog may be walking, but is it really interacting with what is happening outside? Really - Think about it:

I tell you that you MUST for your health walk 2kms a day minimum. So you go out and you do your walk.. You are doing it because you HAVE to.. not because you WANT to... Do you really enjoy it as much as if you WANTED to???

Next time you see someone walking their dog.. Have a look at the interaction... You see some who are genuinely enjoying the walk.. and others who are dragged along and not really enjoying the outing.

[Toolz]

check chain and a horse lead rope as a lead here.. only reason i use horse lead rope is cos its softer on the hands. only time i use a harness is when hes in the car.

[SmoothieGirl]

Flat collar and lead, for training, trialing and general walking.

If I'm bushwalking I'll sometimes put her in a harness, just so I don't jerk her neck accidentally if I'm being a clutz - last bush walking attempt before I got Bronte I broke my arm which gives you a hint of my nimbleness (not!) That being said when we are scrambling up and down rocks or steps if I ask her to 'wait' she will wait for me to catch up and then go on, she doesn't pull on a harness.

[aussielover]

Flat collars but I have swapped to harness' for them both. Cavaliers snort alot (reverse sneeze) and my older boy can get it without even pulling on the lead. I therefore swapped him to a harness and have not had the problem since. He is show trained so trots along beside me rather than running on ahead. My younger boy can pull at times if he is excited so I swapped him to a harness as well.

Yes I have heard this about cavs as well. we actually have a rule out our vet clinic that all cavs must be walked in a harness not a slip lead or collar and lead

[Cosmolo]

Many, many people struggle with the consistency required to teach successful loose lead walking with ease. Some of these people just need more time and training while some don't want that- their goal is for the dog not to pull their arm out of its socket AND for that to happen with minimal effort and input from them.

Some people arrange private training because they don't have time to attend classes and some of those people feel they don't have alot of time to train the dog to loose lead walk.

If, after instruction and training i know that someone is going to be inconsistent, i feel there are certain pieces of equipment that are kinder to the dog when those inconsistencies occur than others. I believe we need to consider dog and owner together, not just one part of the combination.

Abed- what is your definition of a management tool?

[aussielover]

Technically a lead and collar is a management tool, however, as it is required by law in many places, it is sort of a compulsory management tool. I feel I would be able to walk my dog without a leash most of the time, but it is illegal and there is always the chance that the dog would not respond to me, or become over-excited by something and not listen, and therefore be at risk of an accident or upsetting people/other animals.