Am I The Only One These Days?

[DaisyDog]

Her extension leash is ALWAYS locked. The only time she gets to use it unlocked is when we're on the oval at the local school and she's on her flat collar.

We use what works for us.

That's good to hear, thanks for the clarification. You did mention changing to a martingale so it wasn't clear that it was working out for you, so I thought I'd offer a solution.

the head collar works really well for us, I just felt that changing to a martingale would be easier when we are traveling in Feb. A lot of thinking goes into these decisions because she really is my best friend. I'd never do anything that would hurt her.

[Erny]

I agree with those who say "the dog is not fully trained unless it will perform without the tool" and I think this is a very relevant point if a bunch of us were merely sitting around discussing the advantages and disadvantages of training tools for 'training and training tool' sake and without taking into account the very real variables that individual humans create. Although years ago it used to be that I wouldn't be satisfied unless I knew the dog would 'perform' with or without a specific tool, I've come around to recognising and acknowledging that my passion and ambitions are not the same as others. And so for that reason I tend to more readily accept that provided the dog can be reasonably comfortable in the tool of choice and provided it is being used properly and is the best for the dog/owner COMBO and that it means increased dog/owner interaction, walks etc., then I'm ok with that. Whatever floats your boat (so long as the conditions I've just mentioned are observed).

Her extension leash is ALWAYS locked. The only time she gets to use it unlocked is when we're on the oval at the local school and she's on her flat collar.

I agree that extension leads and head collars are incompatible with each other and I see that you've recognised the 'tension' factor is a very real problem in that instance. Personally, I don't like extender leads for almost anything because the most if not all of my general training is about teaching dogs to not apply leash tension.

BUT .... I think you might be missing another major risk factor with the combination of a head-collar and a long lead, DaisyDog. Even with your extended Flexi-lead in the 'locked' position, there is a very real and higher risk of neck damage if your dog chose to suddenly bolt (for whatever reason). The longer the lead, the more momentum your dog will pick up before s/he suddenly comes to the end of the line. Imagine your own neck if your face was in a contraption that would result in a sudden whiplash situation in a circumstance such as that.

Head Collars have their place but I think it needs to be acknowledged that they also have their limitations and I think the limitations of the use of the Head Collar needs to be observed by those who either choose to use them or need to use them.

ETA: Re-reading over some posts I've just realised you said that you ONLY use your extender lead in the "fully retracted and locked" position. I presume by this you mean that you are using a shortish lead rather than the fully extended lead I had first imagined. I apologise for my misunderstanding in this respect but I'll leave up my post as some don't think about the 'length' aspect of their head-collar/lead combination. As an aside though, I don't know why anyone would bother or would want a retractable lead. IMO they very much get in the way of good lead handling because of the sheer bulkiness and unbalanced weight the handle creates. But that's me and probably just the trainer passion coming out in me, lol.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

There's nothing permanent about it, if the behaviour still exists when the tool is not being used. The actual behaviour still exists.

Does it? If the dog never practices the behaviour, does it exist? My dogs don't chase my rabbit because they are never given the opportunity to do it. There are physical barriers that prevent it. I don't even know if they would chase my rabbit because I've never tested them, but I'm guessing they would. To me, this fix is as permanent as those barriers. How permanent is a training tool? My guess is it varies with the effectiveness of the tool for that particular dog. I know dogs that have been on the one training tool for LLW all their lives and still LLW. Looks pretty permanent to me.

The only reason the dog stops pulling when the tool is being used is because the tool is aversive and the dog is trying to avoid a correction/discomfort. But going by your logic, it's ok if the dog is constantly being corrected, caused discomfort and in some instances pain, for the rest of its life.

If they keep pulling all their lives then the aversive is obviously not strong enough to call a punishment, even. In which case, I doubt very much it causes them much pain. Obviously if they are still pulling with the tool it's not working and the owners ought to try something else.

I'm not arguing that tools used incorrectly don't cause troubles. I'm arguing that tools used correctly solve troubles, and that can be a permanent management solution. I have no problem with permanent management solutions assuming they are effective and don't cause more welfare concerns than they solve. To me, a dog confined to its yard because it can't be walked is a massive welfare concern. There being better options doesn't enter into it, because you can't force someone to use an option you think is better. If they aren't going to train they aren't going to train, whether they have to in order to get the dog out of the yard or not. They just won't take the dog out of the yard. So I say bring on the training tools and turn them into management tools if that's what gets the dog walked. I was sympathetic to the trainer that wanted to put Kivi in a no-pull harness when he was a gentle little non-pulling puppy. Clearly most people are not very good at training LLW. To me she was being realistic by just starting the puppies on them so they never learnt to pull in the first place. Just wish she hadn't taken my polite refusal to use one as a personal slight.

Edited to make shorter.

Edited December 23, 2010 by corvus

[*Oscar*]

I use a gentle leader (have watched the instructional video) as our golden pulls to much for myself to walk him. I do know that he walks perfectly with a slip collar without me ever needing to actually use it. however my obedience club doesnt approve of using them for anything but training so I dont use it.

I have a bad back and hip injury and without the gentle leader I would not be able to walk my dog. I think he would prefer to be on gentle leader then only get the dog parks on weekends.

[Erny]

I use a gentle leader (have watched the instructional video) as our golden pulls to much for myself to walk him. I do know that he walks perfectly with a slip collar without me ever needing to actually use it. however my obedience club doesnt approve of using them for anything but training so I dont use it.

This puzzles me. IMO, whenever you have a lead on the dog you are training. (Even when you don't have a lead on the dog, you are training.) Why does your dog walk perfectly with a slip collar without you ever needing to use it but then you say you wouldn't be able to walk your dog without the use of the Gentle Leader? I'm a bit confused about what you're saying .

[Kelly_Louise]

Nope, we use a plain old collar and lead with Chloe - always have

Sash started out with one, but I had to change her to a martingale when she backed out of her collar and escaped a few times.

[abed]

Many people just accept poor behaviour often and use what ever tool makes a walk the most comfortable. The amount of times I have heard "my dog is a puller" and they accept this as that's the way the dog is as if they drew the short straw with that particular dog:confused:

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I have 3 GSD's who all wear a flat collar, the middle one was a rescue at 18 months and trained on a prong collar, the other two were trained from pups and have only worn flat collars.

[lic_82]

I used to walk bradshaw in a flat collar and lead, but his collar deteriorated from being on when swimming and we didnt replace it as he had a check chain in the cupboard. So I use that now, not that he needs it.. more often than not the old boy just wanders along behind and we slow down for him to catch up

[chran]

Chran:

The harness means I can use more force to pull him away in emergency.

You cannot turn the dog's head towards you or away from another dog using a harness.

Better than breaking the neck. Given the same amount of force, a flat collar has higher risk of causing injury. The head turn happened when he got his brain back, got (and did) a drop.

[corvus]

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

[poodlefan]

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

Amen to that. Anything that sees a dog get walked (as opposed to never leaving the yard) is a good thing IMO.

Of course that sad thing is that its really not that difficult to train a dog to walk on a loose lead with the right method. It's even easier if you start pups off that way.

[Cosmolo]

Corvus. So true.

[AmandaJ]

I use a rmartingale collar or lockable clip collars on mine because of the coat (slip or snake chains in show). I do recommend haltis and a normal collar and lead (together) for training "wayward" walkers. It takes the handler a bit of getting used to but for difficult dogs to train on lead it does work well. I'd never use a harness.

[Staranais]

In my ideal world all dogs would be trained to walk nicely on a flat collar (and walk nicely by your side on command off leash, and have a great recall). A well trained dog is safest, and I think often happiest, I think more likely to get rehomed if it ends up in a shelter, and certainly gets the most freedom.

But it's not an ideal world, and if dogs need to be perpetually kept on a halti/harness/long line/other tool in order for their owners to give them some exercise, I think that's far better than nothing. At least they're getting out of the yard and doing something with their legs and brains.

I do think it's a little sad to go to the obedience schools where the answer for every pulling dog appears to be to just immediately stick it in a halti. I've been to volunteer run obedience schools where that appeared to be the standard recommendation for any pulling dog. I don't know if they did that because the trainers didn't know how to train a nice loose leash walk, or whether the trainers just assumed that all handlers were lazy or unmotivated or couldn't be bothered to teach the dog to walk nicely.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Staranais

[piperspal]

I walk 4 dogs at the same time, ranging in size from 40+ kgs down to 4 kgs, and I use a combination of ways to do this. The big dog is the best walker, he will walk on a loose lead no problems, however I usually slip a check chain over him for the walks. The middle size dog, about 20kgs, gets a halti as she is an arrogant biatch that thinks commands arent actually directed at her LOL. The two little dogs at 5kgs and 4kgs, get harnesses. The reasons are as follows-

The big dog, although he is the best and most obediant of them, is also the one that people worry about (although the worst he would do if you are friendly is lick you), so when people see he has on a chack chain they seem to not worry about him so much. Plus putting that on means leaving the yard, so its a signal to him to get ready.

The middle dog, who like I said is arrogant, would like to think she is alpha dog. So she always has to be that little bit in front. With the halti, if she starts to pull, I am not trying to break my arm getting her to stay in position. And yes, I have spent hours with her walking 1 on 1, she walks beautifully. Put all 4 together and she is a cow. Plus I can use the lead to reinforce that the command I have given (whatever that may be) is actually directed at her as well. A wiggle of the lead will get her attention and then she will decide if she will comply.........lol.

The two little ones get harnesses for a different reason, they walk well on anything, but if we are rushed by dogs while we are out and I cant stop them (although it has never happened) should they go for the little dogs I can lift them up and out of the way simply by jerking (for want of a better word) them up with the harness, and hold them out of the way.

Mine get walked nearly everyday, depending on what is happening. Its not viable to leave one behind as the noise would upset the neighbours. So while it would be nice to walk them all on a loose lead and flat collar, its not practicable.

[wuffles]

Mine are both on flat collars and leashes when walking them separately. When walking them together the big one is on a flat collar and the smaller one on a no pull harness. The little one wears a harness when we take her for a jog.

I'd say most people in our area walk on flat collars. I see a few check chains, a few no pull harnesses, a few halters.

I don't really care what tools people use, I just like to see them out walking their dogs.

[AmandaJ]

In my ideal world all dogs would be trained to walk nicely on a flat collar (and walk nicely by your side on command off leash, and have a great recall). A well trained dog is safest, and I think often happiest, I think more likely to get rehomed if it ends up in a shelter, and certainly gets the most freedom.

But it's not an ideal world, and if dogs need to be perpetually kept on a halti/harness/long line/other tool in order for their owners to give them some exercise, I think that's far better than nothing. At least they're getting out of the yard and doing something with their legs and brains.

I do think it's a little sad to go to the obedience schools where the answer for every pulling dog appears to be to just immediately stick it in a halti. I've been to volunteer run obedience schools where that appeared to be the standard recommendation for any pulling dog. I don't know if they did that because the trainers didn't know how to train a nice loose leash walk, or whether the trainers just assumed that all handlers were lazy or unmotivated or couldn't be bothered to teach the dog to walk nicely.

Just to clarify - It's not a recommendation for a permanent tool but for a temporary training tool. They usually end up on a flat lead only. The main focus being to prevent the dog from distractions to the side..the halti is only ever used to "lead" the dog back to where you want it - then you revert back to the flat lead - it's a bit like stearing a bike.

[Kaz]

Flat collars all round here

My three know that if they pull they won't be going anywhere in a hurry. If 'slow' or 'Oi!' doesn't get their attention, we just stop until they are ready to behave themselves.

In the past I have used a check chain and a prong collar where appropriate.

As Staranais said, anything that gets a dog out and about is good.

[Staranais]

I do think it's a little sad to go to the obedience schools where the answer for every pulling dog appears to be to just immediately stick it in a halti. I've been to volunteer run obedience schools where that appeared to be the standard recommendation for any pulling dog. I don't know if they did that because the trainers didn't know how to train a nice loose leash walk, or whether the trainers just assumed that all handlers were lazy or unmotivated or couldn't be bothered to teach the dog to walk nicely.

Just to clarify - It's not a recommendation for a permanent tool but for a temporary training tool. They usually end up on a flat lead only. The main focus being to prevent the dog from distractions to the side..the halti is only ever used to "lead" the dog back to where you want it - then you revert back to the flat lead - it's a bit like stearing a bike.

I'm sure most of the instructors at any training school would have agreed that ideally the dog would be weaned off the tool when trained. But that wasn't necessarily what happened. Most of the people I saw at one particular school who took the companion obedience class only and had their dog put into a halti, left the class at the end of 8 weeks with their dog still on a halti. It was not weaned off in the majority of cases.

I still think this is better than the dog not getting taken for walks at all, though I personally feel it's not ideal.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Staranais

[abed]

It annoys me to see trainers or instructors recommend tools like harnesses and haltis for no valid reason other than making things easier. For a trainer or instructor you would hope their priority would be to teach their pupils how to train their dog properly or recommend a training tool, not a management alternative for the life of the dog.

I think that IS a valid reason. If it's the difference between a dog getting walked and a dog not getting walked, I think that is a valid reason to use those tools and make it easier.

There's a difference between the ability to teach someone how to train their dog to LLW and the ability and willingness of the person to actually follow those instructions consistently.

I don't think a dog being walked or not is a trainers responsibility to become involved in as we are hired to teach training skills which should IMHO be a trainers priority, not if a dog is being walked or not. I would prefer to see a dog not walked at all than one abused with incorrect use of training tools and walked daily under those circumstances. Unless there is a "valid" reason like someone mentioned their dog had windpipe weakness and used a harness or an owner was incapacitated, but I am not going to run with a halti used on a GSD from a healthy 23 year old 6 foot young guy on the basis that the dog behaves better, when the guy is more than capable to learn how to train and handle the dog properly, but there are some trainers who will run with this scenario which I think is wrong.