Am I The Only One These Days?

[Aidan]

Their Camiros are similarly build (Y design as you call it) but with wider straps and neoprene underlayer to make it more comfy as well as more rings to attach the lead to

I can tell you, Anissa has the best dressed dogs in Hobart

[mita]

I do find it odd that toy/tiny breed owners feel the need to walk their dogs in halters or harnesses!

We had a lady with a chi puppy wanting to get a front leading harness lol. The reason- the puppy school trainer had recommended it to prevent pulling. She was surprised when we couldn't find one to fit! I suggested a cat harness instead.

Aussie, I think it may be that some owners find smaller breeds can pull their heads back thro' a collar. I have to be careful of that with my tibbies. They're capable of doing that' head to the side & pull motion' which slips a collar over their head.

I don't use a harness, tho'. I just carefully figure where I'll put holes in the collar, so I can have it that bit tighter when we're out walking. It takes some fiddling & fitting, to make sure the collar is 'wriggle-out' proof without being choking.

Just thought, too, that some of the smallies have flatter faces, so there's no big snout to prevent the 'wriggle out' from a collar. I see a difference that way between our tibbies & the shelties we had.

Edited December 23, 2010 by mita

[Mystiqview]

The head halters and the like are toted by many obedience clubs as "power steering for your dog". They are toted as safer and they "teach" your dog not to pull.

Sorry. They are not necessarily safer. I have seen gauged eyes from badly fitting halters cutting in or from the dogs feet and claws gauging at the halter in an attempt to get them off. Yes they do eventually teach your dog to stop pulling.... only while they are wearing the head halter. Take it off, and they pull. nothing is better than proper training

They are also toted as being better and more humane than a check chain, as people think these are cruel. Like any tool used incorrectly, they can be. If used properly and with care, they are no crueller than a flat collar on a pulling dog (that also chokes the dog). I have been at a number of clubs and seen a new person given a chain, and no time is given on how to correctly use the tool they have been given. Same if the person buys the chain at the supermarket or pet store. They are not given with instructions on how to use them. The halters are also not given "good" instructions on how to use them. They tell you how to fit them.....

IMO opinion clubs sell halters and promote halters because they don't have the time and in some cases the experience in the instructors to CORRECTLY teach how to use a flat collar or chain. The halter is put on, the dog dragged around the class and the owner told to keep moving. You have control of the head halter, so the dog has to follow or have its head (as opposed) to the neck dragged around.

I walk mine on either a flat collar or check chain. The chain is used in the show ring or obedience work. It is not used as a hard correction chain as my dogs are taught to heel "offlead" from 8 week puppies using food, reward and praise... and flat collars. By the time I put a leash on my dogs, they are used to heeling off lead the lead is used because of council requirements. They are taught from an early age the best place to be is WITH ME!

ETA: The only time my guys are in a harness.. Is when we go Four Wheel Driving and then it is used to strap them in the vehicle.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Mystiqview

[Aannie]

My breeder recommended a harness for my pup "as it's gentler on her little neck". She was a Cavalier. I used a kramar car harness and loved it because it meant she was restrained in the car and easily controlled/restrained upon exiting the car also. I must say she was EXTREMELY bird driven and would pull terribly when she saw a bird (the reason for her demise in the end ) I trained and trained and trained her not to pull but birds won every single time.

As for the head collar, I was advised ( I think by my vet, but don't quote me on that) that they are better for having control. I tried one on my JRT because he was older when we got him and not socialised so would pull like a b!Tc4 to get to other dogs -- a flat collar would cause him to wheeze and cough but didn't stop him pulling. I switched to a harness in the end with him and life became a LOT easier on walks.

There is a lot of advice out there from "professionals" for people to use harnesses and halti collars -- our obedience school used to give out lots of advice on what people should and shouldn't use on their dogs. My brother-in-law was in the same class as me and he had a boxer on a check chain and was told off for using it -- they're inhumane, apparently! Yet, he'd been advised by someone else that it was the best thing for her Different strokes for different folks, as long as their walking their dogs and the dogs are happy and loved, does it really matter?

[3shepherds]

I walk Gracie with a Sporn harness. Jack is walked on a check chain and lead.

[poodlefan]

Different strokes for different folks, as long as their walking their dogs and the dogs are happy and loved, does it really matter?

When misused and misunderstood and it has the potential to harm the dog, yes it does.

[Anissa Goemann]

Their Camiros are similarly build (Y design as you call it) but with wider straps and neoprene underlayer to make it more comfy as well as more rings to attach the lead to

I can tell you, Anissa has the best dressed dogs in Hobart

Thanks Aidan! =)

[Anissa Goemann]

I was wondering how a harness would go on a Collie Rough - is that your Smooth girl??

Fitting is everything but I still prefer to avoid the cross chest harnesses. Two of my poodles now have neck issues and are walked in the Puppia harnesses. Sadly they don't do big dog sizes.

Nope, it's a friends dog because I have a rough coated colie, too, and you wouldn't be able to see the harness under all that fur.

Since I agree that the fitting is essential I buy the custom made ones in Germany. They fit 100% perfect and with the neoprene the coat doesn't tangle and form knots.

But as I said: Peaches (my collie girl) doesn't like her Camiro too much and prefers the K9 one.

[korbin13]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a slip/limited slip collar?

[DaisyDog]

My girl gets walked on a Black dog head collar and a fully retracted extender leash. She doesn't feel corrections on flat collars or check chains and has dislocated my knee on more than on occasion by pulling me over. We've just bought her a martigale collar and are hoping to use that instead of her head collar, but only time will tell.

Daisy dog, please don't use an extender lead on a head collar. The only way your dog can make that lead function is to pull on it - and in addition to totally defeating the purpose of the head collar, that tension is not great for her chiropractically speaking.

Head halters should ONLY be used with a fixed lead. Switch to the martingale or use a long line on the head halter if you want her to have more freedom on walks.

ETA: I note you say you don't lead the lead extend. A fixed lead is a lot easier to manage in that situation.

My girl gets walked on a Black dog head collar and a fully retracted extender leash. She doesn't feel corrections on flat collars or check chains and has dislocated my knee on more than on occasion by pulling me over. We've just bought her a martigale collar and are hoping to use that instead of her head collar, but only time will tell.

As pf has pointed out, retractable on a head halter is not a good combination.

Timing of correction is very important, all dogs will feel the correction but unless it provides them with enough information to figure out what they are supposed to be doing, the correction will be ineffective ("nagging"). A martingale will not solve this problem for you, only good instruction, good timing and perhaps more than anything else consistency will.

If she is strong enough to injure you, then you need leverage. A head halter can provide this leverage, as can a front-attaching harness. One good way to use these tools is to use a double-ended leash attached at the other end to a flat collar. This way you can transition to the flat collar more easily and are only using the tool when required.

Use rewards when she is in the correct position. Define what "correct position" means first, so that you are absolutely sure what to reward.

Her extension leash is ALWAYS locked. The only time she gets to use it unlocked is when we're on the oval at the local school and she's on her flat collar.

We use what works for us.

[huski]

I don't really care what training tool / aid people use as long as it is suitable for the dog and it means the owners actually walk their dogs.

Me either. I don't think it is a shame that people are taught to train LLW with tools. I think the alternative didn't work very well and I'm just glad people have options that at least get their dogs out there being walked. I don't think it's a big deal if a dog never learns to walk on leash without those tools. Who cares? If that's what those people find acceptable and they are walking their dogs, just, who freaking cares? When are those tools not going to be available? I think it's kind of hypocritical to grump about people relying on tools. What's a flat collar and leash?

I don't think anyone objects to people using tools, but is it ideal for a dog to be walked on one its entire life when with a bit of training, the tool can be used to teach the dog to walk on a loose leash instead of putting a bandaid on the problem? If the dog pulls when you take the tool off, it hasn't been taught anything. I also hate to see the people who buy tools like head collars and whack them on their dogs with no understanding on how to use the tool properly. I find it awful to see dogs in head collars madly scratching at their faces to get them off, rolling on the ground trying to remove them, having the strap ride up into their eyes etc. And being subjected to wearing the tool that clearly causes them serious discomfort for the rest of their life because their owner doesn't understand how to use it properly. Not to mention the damage wearing a tool like a head collar all its life can do to the dog in a chiropractic sense.

Dogs can learn to pull on any tool, which is what happens when people rely on the tool instead of actually using it to train their dog.

Edited December 23, 2010 by huski

[poodlefan]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a slip/limited slip collar?

One that expands to fit over the dog's head but tightens to a limited degree when pressure is applied. Martingales are one form.

Some common examples:

[korbin13]

Thank you Poodlefan. You learn something new everyday. I had seen martingales but not the others. Some of them look quite good.

[poodlefan]

. I also hate to see the people who buy tools like head collars and whack them on their dogs with no understanding on how to use the tool properly. I find it awful to see dogs in head collars madly scratching at their faces to get them off, rolling on the ground trying to remove them, having the strap ride up into their eyes etc. And being subjected to wearing the tool that clearly causes them serious discomfort for the rest of their life because their owner doesn't understand how to use it properly. Not to mention the damage wearing a tool like a head collar all its life can do to the dog in a chiropractic sense.

If I had $10 for every time I've seen a dog given a jerk correction on a halti, attached to a flexi lead by one or being dragged or dragging its owner on one, I'd be rich. Ditto for dogs being held tightly on one with heads at unnatural angles (see RSG's post)

The premise of the halti was that the dog would learn (via aversion) that pulling did not profit it. They were always designed to be used with a flat collar and with a double ended or two leads so that the flat collar was employed unless the dog required correction. Those corrections were supposed to be applied via guidance at head height (picture this on small dogs and pups folks)

Promoted hard as "kinder" than a flat collar, people seem to forget that the head halter places pressure on the most sensitive area of a dog's face whether the dog is pulling or not. It's because so many dogs find them aversive to wear that their drive is lowered and they don't pull. Of course, over time any dog can learn tolerate and to pull on one and that's where the potential for spinal damage emerges.

None of this of course is information available to the casual purchaser who has heard them describes as "power steering" or "kind" and picks one up in the supermarket or petshop. Fitting them takes some practice and many dogs I see have not had them fitted correctly. Mores the pity for the dog.

Yes, they have a use but they there were designed as a corrective training aid and now get used as an every day walking aid for dogs with or without pulling issues. I've even seen dogs with rego tags hanging off them. Ask yourself how long those dogs get to wear them.

Edited December 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I don't think anyone objects to people using tools, but is it ideal for a dog to be walked on one its entire life when with a bit of training, the tool can be used to teach the dog to walk on a loose leash instead of putting a bandaid on the problem?

A leash is a tool.

Honestly, it's not a band-aid if it's essentially a permanent fix, is it? These people don't really have circumstances where they can't use a head collar, no-pull harness, check chain or whatever. Their problem is fixed as long as they walk that dog on whatever tool enables them to walk them without having excessive pulling, and if they only ever walk them on that tool, then it's permanently fixed. "Ideal" is the dog gets walked as far as I'm concerned.

If the dog pulls when you take the tool off, it hasn't been taught anything.

Presumably it's learnt to walk nicely when wearing that tool. Why does it have to be taught anything else if the owners are never going to want to do anything else?

Dogs can learn to pull on any tool, which is what happens when people rely on the tool instead of actually using it to train their dog.

Well, it's what can happen. I haven't seen it happen, or had anyone tell me it's happened. I'm guessing if it does the dog is no worse off than if a tool was never used in the first place. Hopefully all that walking around together has made the owners a little more attached to their dog and more motivated to put the work in to actually fix the problem properly. We can dream.

Personally, I like my dogs to be under voice control as much as possible and leashes to be there when we can't afford them to not notice a verbal cue. That is the way I do things, but other people just want to walk their dogs without being towed along behind them. I have no issue with them using whatever tool they find works to achieve that. I would rather see a dog squinting as he walks around the block because the head collar is an awful fit than, say, sitting in a yard so bored out of his brain that he develops some weird behavioural problems. In the end it is none of my business, but a dog out and about is a dog that's getting ongoing socialisation and stimulation which is IMO the single most useful thing you can do to guard against behavioural problems after actually training your dog in the first place. Hell, maybe it's even more useful than training. Who cares if their dogs aren't trained to walk on a loose leash? Not me.

[Guest]

I think for us it was kinder to use a front leading harness both for Oscar and us as he is so strong, and,no amount of being kind was going to stop him pulling on a normal collar,he walks really good now.

[OSoSwift]

These are the ones I use

[Aidan]

The halters are also not given "good" instructions on how to use them. They tell you how to fit them.....

The Gentle Leader comes with an excellent instructional DVD that explains correct fitting, correct desensitisation, and correct use. Unfortunately, like most instruction manuals, hardly anyone bothers to watch it. It's a shame, because I maintain we would not see the problems we see with them if they did. So I agree with your sentiment, good instruction leads to good use.

[Aidan]

Her extension leash is ALWAYS locked. The only time she gets to use it unlocked is when we're on the oval at the local school and she's on her flat collar.

We use what works for us.

That's good to hear, thanks for the clarification. You did mention changing to a martingale so it wasn't clear that it was working out for you, so I thought I'd offer a solution.

[huski]

A leash is a tool.

Well, duh. But does it carry the same risk of injury that a tool like a head collar can?

Honestly, it's not a band-aid if it's essentially a permanent fix, is it? These people don't really have circumstances where they can't use a head collar, no-pull harness, check chain or whatever. Their problem is fixed as long as they walk that dog on whatever tool enables them to walk them without having excessive pulling, and if they only ever walk them on that tool, then it's permanently fixed. "Ideal" is the dog gets walked as far as I'm concerned.

There's nothing permanent about it, if the behaviour still exists when the tool is not being used. The actual behaviour still exists. The only reason the dog stops pulling when the tool is being used is because the tool is aversive and the dog is trying to avoid a correction/discomfort. But going by your logic, it's ok if the dog is constantly being corrected, caused discomfort and in some instances pain, for the rest of its life.

Presumably it's learnt to walk nicely when wearing that tool. Why does it have to be taught anything else if the owners are never going to want to do anything else?

In the end it is none of my business, but a dog out and about is a dog that's getting ongoing socialisation and stimulation which is IMO the single most useful thing you can do to guard against behavioural problems after actually training your dog in the first place. Hell, maybe it's even more useful than training. Who cares if their dogs aren't trained to walk on a loose leash? Not me.

Well, for one, the reason I outlined in my post above. It's not the best option for the dog to be forced to wear a tool that isn't even being used properly and in many instances, is not even fitted properly, for the rest of its life, when there are other options. OF COURSE it's better that the dog is being walked, but you asked why it mattered or why it was an issue in the first place. There ARE problems that can and do arise from a tool being fitted or used incorrectly, ask any reputable trainer who actually has experience with a number of dogs and they will tell you that dogs can and do learn to pull on any tool. I've seen dogs pulling on head collars, prongs, check chains. Every time the owner tries a new tool and fails because the dog learns to pull on it, the owner becomes more and more defeated, and the dog because that bit more resistant to training.