Working Border Collies

[shortstep]

Here is a bit more about another dog you mentioned.

Kip (Imp) ISDS 218586

This dog was imported and was ISDS registered.

A son of Turnbulls Nap ISDS 188631, English National Champion 1993.

Grandson of Fortunes Glen who has sired so many super sheepdog that are found in many current pedigrees.

Dam of Kip was Nell ISDS 177305. Nel's sire Jim ISDS 155787 was exported to the US and is found in many top US cattle dogs today.

Wow.. Yes, the bitch (mother) has Kip - (Nell/Nap Rom) on both sides GP and GGP

One more tid bit.

http://www.waddyscollies.com.au/pedigree.php

I believe this fellow can tell you all about the Rosedale lines, I beleive he is using Roesdale Trubo lines and thinks the world of them.

Edited December 22, 2010 by shortstep

[JulesP]

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

I really liked Colin Websters dogs that he brought down to Vic the other year for the State trial. To me they looked more like the UK borders that I remember. Do you know what lines he uses?

[shortstep]

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

I really liked Colin Websters dogs that he brought down to Vic the other year for the State trial. To me they looked more like the UK borders that I remember. Do you know what lines he uses?

Don't know what lines his dogs are I would suspect a conbination of the older OZ and some imported ISDS lines along the way. There is a constant influx of ISDS bloodlines being brought into the working dogs in OZ. All of them are going to come from ISDS lines, but how far back can very from pedigree to pedigree.

The 2008 (UK ISDS back to 1906) International Supreme Champion looks just like the dogs on any of those web sites. Right handsome dog he is too. Would look right at home on OZ paddock.

http://www.peze.com/evansdogs/mirk.htm

Can you tell me how he looks so different to the working dogs on the websites?

Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep

[kelpiechick]

The 2008 (UK ISDS back to 1906) International Supreme Champion looks just like the dogs on any of those web sites. Right handsome dog he is too. Would look right at home on OZ paddock.

http://www.peze.com/evansdogs/mirk.htm

What a stunning dog !

Sorry for the OP for going OT but in the UK there also appears to be different types of registered collies which I'm not quite sure how that works?

You have your BC's of which many have ISDS registration which has been mentioned and to me look very similar to what I know as a working border collie here. There are also collies registered as 'working sheepdogs' - which I am not going to make a generalisation about how they look as I have only ever seen a handful.

Only reason I know there is a difference in the way they are registered is that there are a couple of awesome working sheepdogs competing in agility in the UK that are not eligible to compete at worlds because of their registration.

Anyone know if it only relates to pedigrees/ISDS rego. or are there actually subtle differences between the two, kinda like the differences with NZHD being known as a different breed (which to all intents and purposes look to me like smooth coated BC's.)

[aussielover]

The standard is for a dog capable of working in the borders of England and scotland- very different climate and terrain than farms in Aus.

So it would be unlikely that a working BC in Aus is going to fit the original breed standard

Which standard?

The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's?

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s?

Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin?

Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function.

To original poster,

The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is.

Well a standard is really just a guideline, and obviously, interpretations vary so yes, both show and working dogs could potentially fit the standard. Howver,obviously, i am not BC expert, but from an average persons point of view, the show-winning dogs today, do not look like working BCs in Australia that I see.

In my opinion, there is LESS of a difference in the appearance of show winning dogs and working sheepdogs in the UK.

Short or less coated BCs seem to be preferred for Australian conditions and i have never seen one of those in the ring, even though it is apparently permitted in the breed standard?

[shortstep]

The 2008 (UK ISDS back to 1906) International Supreme Champion looks just like the dogs on any of those web sites. Right handsome dog he is too. Would look right at home on OZ paddock.

http://www.peze.com/evansdogs/mirk.htm

What a stunning dog !

Sorry for the OP for going OT but in the UK there also appears to be different types of registered collies which I'm not quite sure how that works?

You have your BC's of which many have ISDS registration which has been mentioned and to me look very similar to what I know as a working border collie here. There are also collies registered as 'working sheepdogs' - which I am not going to make a generalisation about how they look as I have only ever seen a handful.

Only reason I know there is a difference in the way they are registered is that there are a couple of awesome working sheepdogs competing in agility in the UK that are not eligible to compete at worlds because of their registration.

Anyone know if it only relates to pedigrees/ISDS rego. or are there actually subtle differences between the two, kinda like the differences with NZHD being known as a different breed (which to all intents and purposes look to me like smooth coated BC's.)

Ok it works like this,

ISDS founding registry of the border collie 1906. They only accept ISDS dogs, and they accept ABCA American Border Collie reg and CBCA Candian border collie reg which are build off all ISDS lines and no kennel club dogs. ISDS wil not accept any KC pedigrees.

The Kennel Club is the show registry just like ANKC here, only they accept all ISDS dogs, always have and always will. The will accept show dogs from OZ too, so you have a mix of some show dog imports and pure working bred too. Some people dual register in both.

Working Registery is like the Associate in ANKC here, these are dogs without pedigrees or were not registered in ISDS or the KC. This is used only in the KC to allow these dogs to do trials, agility and so forth. So they are not registered dogs and do not have pedigrees.

Only purebeds can compete in FCI world cup, they would have to be ISDS or KC registered if on the UK team.

Here is the 2010 International Supreme Champions, another looker and a dog you could find on any paddock in OZ.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=htt...%26tbs%3Disch:1

BTW these 2 dogs Mirk and Tweed, their bloodlines are here in OZ in the working dogs already.

Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep

[JulesP]

Well a standard is really just a guideline, and obviously, interpretations vary so yes, both show and working dogs could potentially fit the standard. Howver,obviously, i am not BC expert, but from an average persons point of view, the show-winning dogs today, do not look like working BCs in Australia that I see.

In my opinion, there is LESS of a difference in the appearance of show winning dogs and working sheepdogs in the UK.

Short or less coated BCs seem to be preferred for Australian conditions and i have never seen one of those in the ring, even though it is apparently permitted in the breed standard?

The standards are quite different though. So which standard are are talking about? A short coat is not permitted in the Australian breed standard.

Can't say I am a fan of Mirk's look. Sorry Shortstep. Looks too much like a Kelpie of me, which is fine if you are a Kelpie.

[JulesP]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

[shortstep]

The standard is for a dog capable of working in the borders of England and scotland- very different climate and terrain than farms in Aus.

So it would be unlikely that a working BC in Aus is going to fit the original breed standard

Which standard?

The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's?

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s?

Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin?

Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function.

To original poster,

The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is.

Well a standard is really just a guideline, and obviously, interpretations vary so yes, both show and working dogs could potentially fit the standard. Howver,obviously, i am not BC expert, but from an average persons point of view, the show-winning dogs today, do not look like working BCs in Australia that I see.

In my opinion, there is LESS of a difference in the appearance of show winning dogs and working sheepdogs in the UK.

Short or less coated BCs seem to be preferred for Australian conditions and i have never seen one of those in the ring, even though it is apparently permitted in the breed standard?

The reason you will not see a smooth coats in the ring in Australia is they only allow rough coats. All the other standards for border collies allow for smooth coat, UK. FCI, USA and others in Europe.

You will see mostly smooth coats on the paddocks here in OZ as the rough coat is very impractical so no one wants that coat on a working dogs down here. Same can be said for many parts of the US and other countries.

In the UK about half the dogs are smooth coat and about half are rough coat.

You will find breed ring champions in the UK, USA and Europe that are smooth coated BTW.

Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK, so I showed you two recent International supreme champions, you can not get more UK trial dogs than this, and both are smooth coated and both could be found on any paddock in OZ. So I think what you do not like about them is that they are smooth coated. However 50% of all border collies in the world are smooth coated. In Australia more than 50% would be smooth coated due to conditions in the paddocks. It is only the ANKC standard that says you can only have rough coats in the kennel club. The UK Kennel club, American Kennel club, New Zealand, FCI which is most of Europe, and more, all say smooth or rough does not matter.

Ok what is ISDS.

ISDS is where all the OZ show dogs should have come from. ISDS is the founding registry for the breed. It is a stud book, a registry, yes they have pedigrees and it started in 1906. It did get going right before 1901 but was put a side due to the war. It has operated ever since 1906 except for the years of WW11.

It is accepeted by, The KC british kennel club, many european kennel clubs, the AKC american kennel club, the NZC new zealand kennel club and the CBCA/CKC Candian border collie club. It is also accepted by all working registires world wide including here in OZ and in NZ.

They only accept ISDS parents. American Border Collie (ABCA) which is pure ISDS lines or CBCA Candian border collie which is also pure ISDS. They are working now with AWBC (Australian working) to accept the dogs with legitmate pedigrees going back to ISDS dogs. ISDS will not register any KC registered dogs, however if they have maintained their ISDS or working registration in an acceptable registry then they will register them.

So I hope that helps you understand the role of ISDS both in the history and the current culture of the breed. ISDS is where the breed became organaized, registered and had it's stud book, ISDS is the foundation registry of the breed and still operates today. ISDS also ;eads the standard in sheepdgo trails around the world, today even holding 'the world trial' in differnt countires each year. Most people in the world with border collie have working dogs and ISDS is where it all started. ISDS registers more border collies in the UK and europe than the Kennel clubs, ABCA registeres more than 15000 more border collies each year than American Kennel club does. There are far more working border collies in Australia than ANKC dogs.

[Vickie]

Can't say I am a fan of Mirk's look. Sorry Shortstep. Looks too much like a Kelpie of me, which is fine if you are a Kelpie.

probably also fine if you have been bred for hundreds of years to perform exactly the same function as a kelpie. Makes perfect sense to me that they would share traits in appearance. Not to mention the fact that the predominant breed used to create the kelpie was in fact border collie

Makes a lot more sense that a BC who looks like an Aussie, since they are bred for a very different style of work.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Vickie

[JulesP]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK,

No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps.

[shortstep]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK,

No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps.

You said

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

[JulesP]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK,

No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps.

You said

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

So were have I said 'working' and I certainly wasn't a child in 2008.

[shortstep]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK,

No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps.

You said

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

So were have I said 'working' and I certainly wasn't a child in 2008.

Ok I can see exaclty where you are coming from.

So you said sheep trails so that I took to mean working dogs at sheepdog trails, but it is cear you did not way wokring dogs, you said you looked at sheep trials, which I guess could also mean sheep shows??? Is that what meant you went to sheep shows?

Anyway, tell what years you were watching the sheep dogs or sheep trails in the UK, that had the dogs in the uk that do not look anything like the Oz dogs on the web sites. I will see if I can find some pics from thsoe years, please give me a 10 year span if it is very far back as there will not be a lot of photos from say the 70's or 80's.

Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Does the ISDS registry want proof of pedigree?

You said that working dogs in OZ did not look like working dogs in the UK,

No I didn't. Go and read again perhaps.

You said

Interesting info shortstep. Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

So were have I said 'working' and I certainly wasn't a child in 2008.

Ok I can see exaclty where you are coming from.

So you said sheep trails so that I took to mean working dogs at sheepdog trails, but it is cear you did not way wokring dogs, you said you looked at sheep trials, which I guess could also mean sheep shows??? Is that what meant you went to sheep shows?

Anyway, tell what years you were watching the sheep dogs or sheep trails in the UK, that had the dogs in the uk that do not look anything like the Oz dogs on the web sites. I will see if I can find some pics from thsoe years, please give me a 10 year span if it is very far back as there will not be a lot of photos from say the 70's or 80's.

I'll just take a stab in the dark,

1982, 1983, 1985 National Champion Roy

Smooth coated tri colour, his ears were also fully pricked but he is holding them down in this photo.

http://www.bordercollieranch.com/images/ta...8-templeton.jpg

Now this UK trial dog, that you might have seen at a sheep trial in the UK, looks like he could be on the paddock in Australia, he looks just like the dogs on the OZ web sites that I posted, that you said

Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

Edited December 23, 2010 by shortstep

[benshiva]

My longgggg legged - short coated show border collie.

[benshiva]

The standard is for a dog capable of working in the borders of England and scotland- very different climate and terrain than farms in Aus.

So it would be unlikely that a working BC in Aus is going to fit the original breed standard

Which standard?

The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's?

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s?

Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin?

Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function.

To original poster,

The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is.

Well a standard is really just a guideline, and obviously, interpretations vary so yes, both show and working dogs could potentially fit the standard. Howver,obviously, i am not BC expert, but from an average persons point of view, the show-winning dogs today, do not look like working BCs in Australia that I see.

In my opinion, there is LESS of a difference in the appearance of show winning dogs and working sheepdogs in the UK.

Short or less coated BCs seem to be preferred for Australian conditions and i have never seen one of those in the ring, even though it is apparently permitted in the breed standard?

MULTI Best In Show winning GR CH Benshiva Dot Com

A very moderately coated Border Collie that did extremely well in the show ring until he retired 2 years ago. This is him in almost full coat.

[JulesP]

I'll just take a stab in the dark,

1982, 1983, 1985 National Champion Roy

Smooth coated tri colour, his ears were also fully pricked but he is holding them down in this photo.

http://www.bordercollieranch.com/images/ta...8-templeton.jpg

Now this UK trial dog, that you might have seen at a sheep trial in the UK, looks like he could be on the paddock in Australia, he looks just like the dogs on the OZ web sites that I posted, that you said

Those dogs on the websites you listed look nothing like the dogs I remember from my childhood in the UK. I used to watch the sheep trials.

No I am older then that. The UK KC BC standard wasn't actually in place. Were there some shorter coated dogs? Probably but it was pretty bloody cold were I lived so that may have been a factor.

I remember a certain sort of dog. I don't know why you have a problem with that? I didn't say anything negative or that one was wrong. I just said they were different.

[JulesP]

The dogs I remember don't look the same as the Australian ANKC border collies either btw.