Working Border Collies

[Guest bigdogg]

Im getting a BC pup in the new year..

Old mate has just sent me the family tree..

Just wondering if anyone has heard of any of the names and if they were any good?

Jupa Boss. Crowsdale Slice - goes back to Princes, Carlisle, Dee Oss, Rosedale, Lex(NZ), Rooyon, Gardiners, Sevils, wondara, Sorego, Roma, Rojon, Seviles, Gibberagee, Crowsdale, williams, Mcaallums, woodvale,

the list goes on..

Any info would be great

[persephone]

Those names, are they kennel prefixes, or just dogs' names ?

[R00]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

[Janba]

Those names, are they kennel prefixes, or just dogs' names ?

They are working BC prefixes. Princes is Greg Ptrince who is one of Australia's best 3 sheep triallers. I know of a lot of the others as well.

Are the parents Juppa Boss and Crowesdale Slice?

[Janba]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

[R00]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's?

[Janba]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's?

They can but a lot don't. The working BCs tend to have longer legs and finer bone and the coat can be anything from smooth to long but is rarely as thick as an ANKC dogs coat. Ears can also be anything from pricked to dropped. I have seen working BCs with conformation good enough to win in the show ring but they are bred for working ability not conformation.

My Cole, whose link is below, is a pure working bred dog but dual registered as NZKC recognises the ISDS as pure bred.

,

[Agility Dogs]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's?

Typically not.

'Working' borders tend to be 'leggier' and often won't have as much coat as their ANKC counterparts. Also working borders often don't have as uniform or 'classic' markings as ANKC borders because they are not selected for markings, they are selected for their working ability/temperament.

Their head is also often 'finer'.

[Guest bigdogg]

Those names, are they kennel prefixes, or just dogs' names ?

They are working BC prefixes. Princes is Greg Ptrince who is one of Australia's best 3 sheep triallers. I know of a lot of the others as well.

Are the parents Juppa Boss and Crowesdale Slice?

On one side yes..

Littles Bozo but owned by Mathesons i think..

Slice is by a Princes Turbo 2004 QLD open CH

The later names are more about the bitch.. Tri coloured BC.. Missy

Doesnt have any bred by info (name of breeder) Her father is Royce (no prefix) Mother is Hainauit? Bree.. both dogs have heritage to 99/2000 QWCDTA Nov/Open of year. Kip 218586

I have never followed BC lines before.. So these are all just names to me..

This pup will become a working dog too.. Predominantly bos indicus cattle and I will be getting a couple of sheep for some intensive work as well.

The fella that owns the bitch paid nearly $4000 for her i think.

again - any info would be great..

[Rusky]

http://bauersworkingbordercollies.com.au/ourdogs/index.html

some of the pedigrees on this site. I think you will find most with a simple google of WBC there was a recent survey of working dogs done in Australia too. There are some dol people who will know, ask on the herding link on sports

[benshiva]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's?

Typically not.

'Working' borders tend to be 'leggier' and often won't have as much coat as their ANKC counterparts. Also working borders often don't have as uniform or 'classic' markings as ANKC borders because they are not selected for markings, they are selected for their working ability/temperament.

Their head is also often 'finer'.

Neither are "Show" Border Collies. Markings are the last thing you'd look at. Just thought I'd point that out

[Guest Clover]

I have heard of and know of Princes dogs, I often see them crop up in trial catalogues and when i check out the Working Sheepdog club websites etc. The other names i have never heard of, but they might be from a different area to what i look out for (it is dogs from S.A & Vic that i check out).

[aussielover]

Sorry to the OP, I was going to ask this in a new thread but thought it may be ok in this one.

Are many purebred Border Collies still used as working dogs these days? This is real question from someone that has no idea. In my travels I can't seem to recall seeing any on farms etc.

Purebred working BCs are still used as are working kelpies. There would be very very few ANKC BCs working on real properties.

Ok last dumb question for the year, do working BC's look the same as ANKC BC's?

In Australia? NO. They are usually shorter coated, leggier and generally more "kelpie" looking imo.

In the UK, working BCs look a lot more like "show" border collies in Aus.

The standard is for a dog capable of working in the borders of England and scotland- very different climate and terrain than farms in Aus.

So it would be unlikely that a working BC in Aus is going to fit the original breed standard

[Guest bigdogg]

http://bauersworkingbordercollies.com.au/ourdogs/index.html

some of the pedigrees on this site. I think you will find most with a simple google of WBC there was a recent survey of working dogs done in Australia too. There are some dol people who will know, ask on the herding link on sports

Thankyou

I had a look at a couple of the pedigrees. A lot the prefixs are mentioned and even some would be related along the line..

I was just curios to the lines out there.. Seems this pup may have a few good dogs in its heritage..

[dasha]

Sevilles prefix is from a guy called Bill Seville. He is in his late 80's now at a guess and had VERY good dogs when he was trialling and breeding. He had a very good dog called Sevilles Bill that is in a lot of WBC pedigrees. Very knowledgeable man.

Like Janba said, Princes is Greg Prince, prob australias top sheepdog trialler. He is at Dubbo and trials very successfully all over the country.

Wondara is Laurie Slater, also very good natural workers and very strong when needed to be.

Can't remember who Rosedale is but have heard of it

In regards to looks of WBC well lets say they can vary greatly in body type, shape, ear set, coat, colour, eye colour, size as they were selected for their ability to work. The trialling saying is " A good dog is never a bad colour" or insert any trait you can think of.

Edited December 22, 2010 by dasha

[shortstep]

The standard is for a dog capable of working in the borders of England and scotland- very different climate and terrain than farms in Aus.

So it would be unlikely that a working BC in Aus is going to fit the original breed standard

Which standard?

The ISDS (UK) founding registry for the breed in 1906? Everything I see in this standard describs the working border collie in Australia perfectly. This standard would fit the working dogs in OZ and the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in Australia in the 1950's?

Or do you mean the first show dog standard written in the country of origin the UK in the mid 1970"s?

Have you read this show dog standard from the country of origin?

Smooth coat are fine, ears pricked are good too, coats of any colour except mostly white are good. Not that a show standard could ever really discribe the border collie, there is nothing in this standard that the majority of working border collies in OZ would not fit. However, while it is clear the working border collies here in Australia or anywhere else in the world are not bred to look like a standard, it is hoped that the standard discribes what the dogs actually do look like that are being bred to do their job. As in, form follows function.

To original poster,

The pedigree of your dog has some of the very best working kennels in Australia today. Many are well known lines that can be traced all the way back to ISDS and the first dogs imported to Australia from the UK . Many of the lines are top 3 sheep trial lines, but you also have some lines that are very good cow dogs as well as station dogs for both cattle and sheep. It should be a fine dog, certainly purebred and the pedigree reflects that this pup has been bred to the standard of top quality world class working dogs that the border collie is.

Edited December 22, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Just wanted to add.

One of the kennel you had stated was McCullum.

(If I have the correct McCullum kennel) . This kennel is well known around the worldfor top quality working dogs.

Breeding dogs from many years in Australia, he moved to the US and took some of his dogs.

They soon earned a reputation for being some of the best cattle dogs in the US and Canada.

A McCullum dog sold at the Red Bluff Bull and Working Dog Sale for some amount (if memory serves) near $23,000 US dollars which was about $46,000 AU dollars at the time.

Breaking all the price records world wide for a working dog at that time. Added, I found the story http://www.mccallumk9.com/BretVenable.html

He has since come back to Australia and you can contact him via his web site.

http://www.mccallumk9.com/index.html

Edited December 22, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Here is a bit more about another dog you mentioned.

Kip (Imp) ISDS 218586

This dog was imported and was ISDS registered.

A son of Turnbull's Nap ISDS 188631, English National Champion 1993.

Grandson of Fortune's Glen who has sired so many super sheepdog that are found in many current pedigrees.

Dam of Kip was Nell ISDS 177305. Nel's sire Jim ISDS 155787 was exported to the US and is found in many top US cattle dogs today.

Edited to add. Jim was son of McSwiggin's Chip 77779, 1977 International Brace Ch, who is found in so many top trial dogs coming out of Ireland and the UK today. This dog's dam was red (called chocolate in OZ), so if you get a red pup in the future, it likely came all the way down from this dog.

Kip had a son name Gooch, who I meet. He was a full time station dog working cattle and sheep until old age. He also trialed on sheep and cattle in his youth. He was a dog with a lovely temperament and sired many good work dogs.

Edited December 22, 2010 by shortstep

[Guest bigdogg]

Thanks guys

Thats great info

Sevilles Bill is in 3 times on the GG Grandparents side on the dogs side

and twice on the bitches side G Grandparent and GGG Grandparent

Princes is 3 times in the G grandparents on the dogs side and GG on the bitches.. (Clyde, Anna, Wally, Sally)

The bitch has a McCallums George as a GG

The pup seems like it will have the goods then.

[Guest bigdogg]

Here is a bit more about another dog you mentioned.

Kip (Imp) ISDS 218586

This dog was imported and was ISDS registered.

A son of Turnbulls Nap ISDS 188631, English National Champion 1993.

Grandson of Fortunes Glen who has sired so many super sheepdog that are found in many current pedigrees.

Dam of Kip was Nell ISDS 177305. Nel's sire Jim ISDS 155787 was exported to the US and is found in many top US cattle dogs today.

Wow.. Yes, the bitch (mother) has Kip - (Nell/Nap Rom) on both sides GP and GGP