Britains Ugliest Dog.

[poodlefan]

I have thought about the "all breeds were developed as crossbreeds of others" argument and can identify only ONE breed that appears to hold true for - the Pudel Pointer. Even then, poodles weren't used after the first couple of generations and other dogs were added.

Most breeds were developed by crossing individual dogs that displayed desired traits to make those traits more likely in future generations. That was almost invariably done by line breeding fairly quickly into the breeding process.

Edited December 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[Keira&Phoenix]

Gone to look up stuff on "hybrid vigour" I spose

Not at all still here.

That was quite rude. Clearly you have nothing more sophisticated or educated to say then some smart ass remark.

I am trying to be friendly and have a discussion with you and because I don't share your views you are being absolutely rude. Grow up.

What is rude about the term "hybrid vigour" ?

I think you are being naughty telling another poster to "grow up". I might have a word with Troy about that.

I didn't say the term was rude it is the way you constructed your sentence. Especially after I posted what I did explaining that I wasn't in this for a fight I just wanted a healthy discussion.

Report me that is fine. If telling someone who I feel is acting childish instead of participating in a adult discussion is "naughty" then I am happy to cop it on the chin.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I have thought about the "all breeds were developed as crossbreeds of others" argument and can identify only ONE breed that appears to hold true for - the Pudel Pointer. Even then, poodles weren't used after the first couple of generations and other dogs were added.

Most breeds were developed by crossing individual dogs that displayed desired traits to make those traits more likely in future generations. That was almost invariably done by line breeding fairly quickly into the breeding process.

Hi Poodlefan,

Thank you.

Several others that I am aware of are -

Staffordshire Bull Terriers

Doberman Pinscher - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doberman_Pinscher (they don't even know they exact breeds that went into Dobes)

I am sure if I looked up others there would be more outside of this.

[Souff]

Gone to look up stuff on "hybrid vigour" I spose

Not at all still here.

That was quite rude. Clearly you have nothing more sophisticated or educated to say then some smart ass remark.

I am trying to be friendly and have a discussion with you and because I don't share your views you are being absolutely rude. Grow up.

What is rude about the term "hybrid vigour" ?

I think you are being naughty telling another poster to "grow up". I might have a word with Troy about that.

I didn't say the term was rude it is the way you constructed your sentence. Especially after I posted what I did explaining that I wasn't in this for a fight I just wanted a healthy discussion.

Report me that is fine. If telling someone who I feel is acting childish instead of participating in a adult discussion is "naughty" then I am happy to cop it on the chin.

I still do not know what you are on about with the "hybrid vigour" remark. You had disappeared off the board and I just thought that as you were a dedicated fan of crossbreeding you had gone off to get some of the oft quoted stuff on "hybrid vigour". I honestly don't see how that is rude. You must have a different perception of things to me.

Souff

computer must be in repeater mode!

Edited December 22, 2010 by Souff

[Boxerheart]

K&P:

Souff that ugliest dog contest run out of California has a pedigree and crossbreed section so there are many pedigrees out there that come out with many horrible birth defects also

http://google.blognewschannel.com/archives...liest-dog-dies/

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/features/m...for_worlds.html

http://www.lulu.com/static/pr/11_23_05.php

You cannot say that those dogs are all just ugly from old age.

Yep we can.

1. 14 is about 80 - 90 years our time.

2. Skin gets thinner with age, it loses about 3/4 of its thickness, by age 40 years it is already thinner by half. It becomes paper thin and fragile in old age, that transulent look you see in the elderly.

3. The Chinese Crested dog of that age is the equivalent of looking at a 80 - 90 year old man or woman, balding and losing their sight.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Pixie - I have absolutely nothing against purebreeds and no where in their did I say that I did. I said that purebreeds can have the same issues ie: defects, health issues, disabilities. And I support registered (caring) breeders of pure breed dogs I have nothing against them.

When I say proper cross breeding I mean cross breeding for the betterment of a particular type of dog done by loving, caring breeders with knowledge. Not cross breeding by BYB idiots.

As I have said before many of your pure breed dogs would not be around without crossbreeding. Some would be but many dogs were bred for a particular reason and as such were cross bred with other dogs to create a more suitable dog, many NOT all pure breeds were developed this way.

I was not attacking anyone, I was not attacking pure breeds. I was pointing out facts.

And I didn't write what I did to get into a verbal, p**sing match with anyone. I enjoy spirited discussions involving everyone's opinion, because this is how you learn something new.

There was a great thread by Jed which explained how many purebreds may have come about. By choosing particular dogs with the desired attributes or ones that would improve current dogs. Not by crossing already established breeds necessarily, as many breeds were developed around the same time before there were breed standards as such.

Hi Kavik,

Thanks for your input. This is a valid point. I hadn't considered this.

Again I was not saying that crossbreeding any dog is ok. And if you think about it before there were established breeds all dogs were cross breeds and this is how they would have continued had we not decided to selectively breed dogs etc.

Saying dogs should only breed with the same breed is similar to saying that Australian's shouldn't have babies with Americans or Chinese because it will cause birth defects we are all the same species but different in ways. Just like dogs are all the same species.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Gone to look up stuff on "hybrid vigour" I spose

Not at all still here.

That was quite rude. Clearly you have nothing more sophisticated or educated to say then some smart ass remark.

I am trying to be friendly and have a discussion with you and because I don't share your views you are being absolutely rude. Grow up.

What is rude about the term "hybrid vigour" ?

I think you are being naughty telling another poster to "grow up". I might have a word with Troy about that.

I didn't say the term was rude it is the way you constructed your sentence. Especially after I posted what I did explaining that I wasn't in this for a fight I just wanted a healthy discussion.

Report me that is fine. If telling someone who I feel is acting childish instead of participating in a adult discussion is "naughty" then I am happy to cop it on the chin.

I still do not know what you are on about with the "hybrid vigour" remark. You had disappeared off the board and I just thought that as you were a dedicated fan of crossbreeding you had gone off to get some of the oft quoted stuff on "hybrid vigour". I honestly don't see how that is rude. You must have a different perception of things to me.

Souff

computer must be in repeater mode!

Souff I am sorry if I took your remark the wrong way, my apologies for that. It is just at times I have seen the same term used elsewhere as a sort of joke and I felt you were making me a joke. I had actually just gone to peruse other topics while I waited for a response.

[Kavik]

Yes dogs are the same species but breeds have been developed for certain jobs and traits and now can have very different appearances and temperaments. The good thing about purebreds is their predictability of appearance and temperament. Randomly breeding crossbreeds is not going to give you this, but may create a dog with conflicting instincts as well as appearance and coat type.

[Souff]

Souff I am sorry if I took your remark the wrong way, my apologies for that. It is just at times I have seen the same term used elsewhere as a sort of joke and I felt you were making me a joke. I had actually just gone to peruse other topics while I waited for a response.

It's no joke. Hybrid Vigour is a highly respected term in the world of cross breeders. I think the eminent Mr Don Burke can be consulted about it. Anyone who wants to cross breed dogs should consult him, he is a leader in that field I am told.

Souff

[Souff]

Yes dogs are the same species but breeds have been developed for certain jobs and traits and now can have very different appearances and temperaments. The good thing about purebreds is their predictability of appearance and temperament. Randomly breeding crossbreeds is not going to give you this, but may create a dog with conflicting instincts as well as appearance and coat type.

And with conflicting bone structure, which has formed part of the little English dog's disabilities. See original post.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Yes dogs are the same species but breeds have been developed for certain jobs and traits and now can have very different appearances and temperaments. The good thing about purebreds is their predictability of appearance and temperament. Randomly breeding crossbreeds is not going to give you this, but may create a dog with conflicting instincts as well as appearance and coat type.

Very true.

This is why I would never support someone cross-breeding a Chi to a Great Dane or a Cattle Dog to a Staffy. I meant proper crossbreeding between breeds of similar, size, traits, jobs, appearance and temperament can be beneficial.

In the end my main point was that pure breeds can also have the same health issues as a cross breed. Some how it veered away from that and into a much more heated discussion regarding people crossbreeding and how I am apparently against pure breeds which I am absolutely not and hope to have myself a lovely pure bred dog of which ever breed I decide one day.

[pixie_meg]

Pixie - I have absolutely nothing against purebreeds and no where in their did I say that I did. I said that purebreeds can have the same issues ie: defects, health issues, disabilities. And I support registered (caring) breeders of pure breed dogs I have nothing against them.

When I say proper cross breeding I mean cross breeding for the betterment of a particular type of dog done by loving, caring breeders with knowledge. Not cross breeding by BYB idiots.

ok, but for what purpose? Crossbreeding isn't happening for a genuine reason, its generally because people think they can make cute dogs and make a buck. breed development where people are aiming for breed recognition seems to be what you are talking about. This is different to everyday crossbreeding.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Pixie - I have absolutely nothing against purebreeds and no where in their did I say that I did. I said that purebreeds can have the same issues ie: defects, health issues, disabilities. And I support registered (caring) breeders of pure breed dogs I have nothing against them.

When I say proper cross breeding I mean cross breeding for the betterment of a particular type of dog done by loving, caring breeders with knowledge. Not cross breeding by BYB idiots.

ok, but for what purpose? Crossbreeding isn't happening for a genuine reason, its generally because people think they can make cute dogs and make a buck. breed development where people are aiming for breed recognition seems to be what you are talking about. This is different to everyday crossbreeding.

Yes it is what I am talking about. I realise that the majority of people who cross breed do it for money or looks and that is not a good reason. I don't support this.

In the end my OP was to point out that you could get the same issues from a pure bred that was all. I was not promoting cross breeding or saying it is ok in this day and age.

[Souff]

Yes it is what I am talking about. I realise that the majority of people who cross breed do it for money or looks and that is not a good reason. I don't support this.

In the end my OP was to point out that you could get the same issues from a pure bred that was all. I was not promoting cross breeding or saying it is ok in this day and age.

Good to hear.

There is no other reason to crossbreed dogs today. Breeders who are breeding to improve a breed do it from the same breed's gene pool, by using different lines from within the same gene pool. There is absolutely no need to raid the gene pools of other purebred dogs.

Dogs that are crossbred are a total waste of the genes from the original gene pool, because those genes can NEVER be put back into the original breed's gene pool.

The breeds need their gene pools to be healthy, not to be raided by people who think that they would like to cross breed dogs.

Souff

edited for S & G

Edited December 22, 2010 by Souff

[Keira&Phoenix]

Just quickly wanted to add this which I found here http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=187600

It is a report on breeds, breed problems, how many breeders now breed for colour or conformation and not the health of the dogs and how the careful cross breeding of certain breeds of dog can be beneficial. http://www.terrierman.com/mcgreevey-some-p...og-breeding.pdf

I understand what you are saying Souff but it may not be in the best interest of the breed (I am speaking all breeds in general not just 1) to keep the blood line pure forever as it may just cause further problems in the future.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Keira&Phoenix

[kinsella]

Whomever bred that dog should be flogged for not pts at birth. The blind eye should be removed pronto as there is more eye outside the orbit than in, probably secondary glaucoma due to injury.

I am also horrified by the popularity this poor animal has. It's not heartwarming that someone is now going to lavish money and affection on a dog with a very poor outlook.

An old breeder told me many years ago when discussing the "bleeding heart brigade" that it is just as easy to love a healthy dog, and a lot cheaper, than a misfit or disabled dog. These pitiful animals satisfy a need in the owner to be seen showing conspicuous compassion.

[Souff]

I understand what you are saying Souff but it may not be in the best interest of the breed (I am speaking all breeds in general not just 1) to keep the blood line pure forever as it may just cause further problems in the future.

If people keep putting good breeding stock on limited registers and if people keep on de-sexing those dogs which should have been retained in the gene pool, then not much will be in the favour of ANY of the gene pools because there wont be anything much worth breeding from, in this country anyhow.

The countries who do not have limited registers will fare much better.

Mixing up the gene pools is not the answer. Depleted gene pools only exacerbates the problem.

Souff

[Souff]

Whomever bred that dog should be flogged for not pts at birth. The blind eye should be removed pronto as there is more eye outside the orbit than in, probably secondary glaucoma due to injury.

I am also horrified by the popularity this poor animal has. It's not heartwarming that someone is now going to lavish money and affection on a dog with a very poor outlook.

An old breeder told me many years ago when discussing the "bleeding heart brigade" that it is just as easy to love a healthy dog, and a lot cheaper, than a misfit or disabled dog. These pitiful animals satisfy a need in the owner to be seen showing conspicuous compassion.

Totally agree Kinsella.

[kinsella]

Just quickly wanted to add this which I found here http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=187600

It is a report on breeds, breed problems, how many breeders now breed for colour or conformation and not the health of the dogs and how the careful cross breeding of certain breeds of dog can be beneficial. http://www.terrierman.com/mcgreevey-some-p...og-breeding.pdf

I understand what you are saying Souff but it may not be in the best interest of the breed (I am speaking all breeds in general not just 1) to keep the blood line pure forever as it may just cause further problems in the future.

I think you are confusing crossbreeding with outcross. Until the last 30 years or so, it was allowable to bring in a different breed to strengthen a purebred dog. After 5 or so generations, the offspring were then deemed purebred. One of the reasons it has stopped is that often more damage was done than improvements made. It also had to be approved BEFORE attempting the outcross.

The last I know of (and that doesn't mean much) was the refusal in the US to allow Irish Wolfhounds to be crossed with Deerhounds to try and regain the colours they had lost. It was decided colour was not a sufficient reason to outcross and denied.

[Jed]

I feel sorry for the poor dog. The eye looks like glaucoma to me, so I hope a vet has checked him and he is not suffering. And he has the very worst wry mouth I have ever seen. Hopefully they realise that when he is older he probably wont be able to eat.

Wonderful that he has a loving home - and lets hope he has been checked, and not just passed on.

Keira&Phoenix, not all of us agree with Dr McGreevy's ideas - particularly as he was studding his no particular breed, not health tested dog on the internet. He gives no references for his writings.

Here is a website - you might like to read both sides of the argument to be informed of all points.

http://www.wwsva.com/small-population-bree...iversity-issues

Might be time to bring back the Lithuanian Goat Catching Retriever, Kavic??

Edited December 22, 2010 by Jed