" Off The Chain"

[geo]

A hugely worthwhile documentary - makes you wonder how the creator ever got the access that they did. The bit in video 5 with all the adopted pit bulls and happy owners had me sobbing!

And this from the HSUS rep on the ineffectiveness of breed bans was awesome:

They punish dog owners who are keeping their dogs responsibly.

You will capture some dangerous animals, but you won't capture a whole host of dangerous animals that are out there.

It doesn't matter that you're doing everything right; that your dog has had training and you have taken the time with that animal to raise her in a way that makes sure she is a safe member of your family. You're telling those people that none of that matters, just because she happens to be a pit bull.

*edit spelling*

Yet the HSUS are have put down thousands of pitbulls..? 64 dogs and 100 puppies from one breeder, 54 of another breeder.. the list is endless.

[Adnil444]

Sure I am, we both are

The behavior is not normal only insofar as it is deviates from the behavior and beliefs of the majority of people, but that doesn't show anyone is evil. If you consider that their behavior conforms with the normal standard within their certain group or subculture, then by that measure it is normal.

Here is something to reflect on if you choose to. The children I mentioned earlier, are they all evil for being indifferent to dog fighting ? Would children from an area where dog fighting was rare or non existent, an area with a strong culture of pet ownership and affection, react the same way to questions about dog fighting ?

I think the answer is obviously no. The least plausible explanation is that all the children in the neighborhood where dog fighting is prominent just so happen to be evil. The most reasonable explanation is that the children are a product of their conditioning. It follows then, that when they grow, if they participate in this activity, they do so (for the most part) because they have a conditional predisposition to it. If the same children were taken from place A and raised in place B, their outlook on life would be completely different.

This hypothesis also, incidentally, provides the most opportunity for optimism. Under my world view, dog fighting can potentially be all but eliminated over a generation or two with social reform initiatives. This includes, but is far from limited to, punitive measures. Under the view that these people are inherently evil, the pursuit to liberate these dogs from fighting is in vain, and the general improvements in attitude toward animal welfare globally in the past 150 + years would defy any reasonable explanation.

It is very similar to bull fighting - that has had a resurgence in the past few years in Spain - I don't understand why, it is brutal and the outcome for the bull is always death, but the Spaniards say it is their culture etc - we used to feed Christians to the lions etc, but educated, civilised people move on and learn that causing pain and torturing any animal is cruel and should never be tolerated full stop. We don't tolerate child abuse therefore we should never tolerate animal cruelty. Unfortunately both continue and we must always continually fight to stop both. I understand what you are saying, but surely these kids that have been brought up in this environment go to school, read, etc so how they can think this is normal is beyond me. To a rational, educated person, seeing an animal being tortured and in pain is not right, regardless of background etc.

[geo]

I have to agree Lo Pan, though I also think that surely these kids must know better, some do and some just think it's the norm, much like many children in spain will see nothing wrong with bull fighting.

I do hope it changes though!!

[Staranais]

This hypothesis also, incidentally, provides the most opportunity for optimism. Under my world view, dog fighting can potentially be all but eliminated over a generation or two with social reform initiatives. This includes, but is far from limited to, punitive measures. Under the view that these people are inherently evil, the pursuit to liberate these dogs from fighting is in vain, and the general improvements in attitude toward animal welfare globally in the past 150 + years would defy any reasonable explanation.

Yes.

I don't think that people who are involved in dog fighting are always evil - any more than people who buy pet shop puppies, or people who buy things made by little kids in sweatshops, are always evil. Uneducated & indifferent to suffering, certainly. But that can hopefully be fixed, with time and education.

Although, I would imagine that dog fighting and other such very violent activities might be particularly attractive to people who are evil or sociopathic.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Staranais

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Education is the most important part. I do not necessarily define education as learning objective scholarly facts (although this is indirectly a critical part), but also as indoctrinating people with a certain opinion.

Education enables people to mix in broader circles in the wider community, a world of people and opinions which they would not have meaningful access to without education. They are subsequently influenced by all these people, and they take these lessons back to their families, communities and circles of friends where they contribute their influence.

One group tries to coerce another into behaving the way they would prefer by building a consensus. This consensus is used to chip away at the other side in an effort to reduce or eliminate it, thats the common contemporary model for social reform.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Lo Pan

[Tatzelwurm]

This is my first post, so I hope I am not doing anything wrong. We lived near dogfighters for years. Well educated wealthy rural people but they were not good people, and had no care for dogs. We often found dead dogs with horrible wounds dumped in the bush, or nearly dead dogs on tracks.

I think they know better but like the brutality and like the money. I believe big bets were placed, and a lot of people went to the dog fights.

The pups were nasty little things, always wanting to fight other dogs from the time they could stand. Not something you would want as a pet or a working dog.

[OSoSwift]

Out of interest, did you report them?????

I also believe some people/maybe many, do it because they like it, they know it is wrong but they don't care. disgusting.

[Tatzelwurm]

Not immediately. Would not have been good if they suspected us of reporting them. It was a very long time before much was done about it. But the fights stopped.

[OSoSwift]

Good to hear. I would imagine you would need to tread carefully.

[geo]

The pups were nasty little things, always wanting to fight other dogs from the time they could stand. Not something you would want as a pet or a working dog.

Pups aren't inherently nasty little things. These people antagonise them and try to get them to fight each other from when they are only weeks old, poor puppies.

[Jed]

geo, have you ever seen pitbull pups from fighting lines? I have only seen 2 litters - 1 we suspected were from pitbull fighting lines, and they were ripping chunks out of each other at 7 weeks. The other litter were definitely pit bulls (according to the owner) and they were very nasty too.

I don't think pitbulls should be banned, but on the other hand, people ought not to be breeding particularly for dog aggression, and some people are. Sometimes I think perhaps pitbulls should be banned for the small % of them which are dog aggressive, but I don't think that is the answer. It's easy enough to make any breed dog aggressive, if the breeder knows what they are doing.

[dogbesotted]

geo, have you ever seen pitbull pups from fighting lines? I have only seen 2 litters - 1 we suspected were from pitbull fighting lines, and they were ripping chunks out of each other at 7 weeks. The other litter were definitely pit bulls (according to the owner) and they were very nasty too.

I don't think pitbulls should be banned, but on the other hand, people ought not to be breeding particularly for dog aggression, and some people are. Sometimes I think perhaps pitbulls should be banned for the small % of them which are dog aggressive, but I don't think that is the answer. It's easy enough to make any breed dog aggressive, if the breeder knows what they are doing.

i hand raised a litter of ptbullpuppies ( all 8 of them from 10 days of ages. they were great pups. The Divine Miss sophie and morris provided them with adult doggie interaction etc. Tho the divine one ( great dane wolfie x) would sort of stand on tippy toes with a look of horror on her face whenthey would nuzzle around her belly looking for teats...

H

[BJean]

Although, I would imagine that dog fighting and other such very violent activities might be particularly attractive to people who are evil or sociopathic.

I do not think so.

Lots of dog fighting throughout Turkey and you cannot make such a summation that the participants are evil and/or sociopathic.

It's a way of life for many, and very multi-faceted; it's a cultural thing also.

I dont agree with it, but it's there.

Edited December 29, 2010 by lilli

[geo]

geo, have you ever seen pitbull pups from fighting lines? I have only seen 2 litters - 1 we suspected were from pitbull fighting lines, and they were ripping chunks out of each other at 7 weeks. The other litter were definitely pit bulls (according to the owner) and they were very nasty too.

I don't think pitbulls should be banned, but on the other hand, people ought not to be breeding particularly for dog aggression, and some people are. Sometimes I think perhaps pitbulls should be banned for the small % of them which are dog aggressive, but I don't think that is the answer. It's easy enough to make any breed dog aggressive, if the breeder knows what they are doing.

Yes Jed I have. My response was more to point out the context of the comment made (like maybe tatzelwurm may not know why the puppies were like they were or were they projecting there own feelings onto the puppies as the owners were bad and they must be agressive.)

Sure some litters may do this and by no means is this limited to fighting dogs. I don't think it is the norm though even with fighting lines.

Some people like to breed pbs with lots of drive etc.. which there in lies the problem that some people aren't equiped enough to own, train, socilaise dogs that have these traits, same goes for many breeds.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

It's like I was explaining to my kid brother a while ago. Most dogs were originally bred with a primary purpose in mind, a purpose other than pets. Now, all dogs for the pet market are bred as pets. Every now and again individual dogs, by chance, will be useful for the task they were originally bred for, but by and large dogs have to be rigorously tested for and selectively bred over a number of generations to start getting working abilities back, just having a certain breed that historically did a particular task means little.

This was my reply when he asked me why his Golden Retriever is useless. He said, Kooper (dogs name) would not retrieve game for the hunter, rather, he would locate it, eat it, then go to sleep

Edited December 29, 2010 by Lo Pan

[DerRottweiler]

As Lo Pan says, it is a social thing and is not necessarily indicative of inherent evil, or mental disorder etc.

Take for example, that Dog Fighting is common in most of Africa, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India etc.

It doesn't mean they are evil, it means their definition of animal cruelty is different. Dog fighting does not come within the ambit of cruelty, just like, boiling lobsters alive or killing a cow doesn't come within the ambit of our definition....

[APBT]

He talks about loving his dog, but in the same breath says if the dogs quits and stops wanting to fight, he'll kill it. How does that make sense!?!?!?

"Curs are like show dogs that nobody wants anymore, they're a waste, they're a burden, so we just put them down"

Do you even know what a cur is? a little research may help you to understand alot better. saying this i do NOT condone dog fighting, i just respect the past history of my dogs.

[APBT]

geo, have you ever seen pitbull pups from fighting lines? I have only seen 2 litters - 1 we suspected were from pitbull fighting lines, and they were ripping chunks out of each other at 7 weeks. The other litter were definitely pit bulls (according to the owner) and they were very nasty too.

I don't think pitbulls should be banned, but on the other hand, people ought not to be breeding particularly for dog aggression, and some people are. Sometimes I think perhaps pitbulls should be banned for the small % of them which are dog aggressive, but I don't think that is the answer. It's easy enough to make any breed dog aggressive, if the breeder knows what they are doing.

owwww watch out for the killer pups, haha. you made my day.