Help Needed Our Breed In Need Of Help

[roughstock]

This evening you may have seen the channel 9 TV show The Enforcers which profiled a Sydney suburban council perusing a person owning a council registered Pit Bull who was refusing to have it assessed as per NSW state Government legislation.

This legislation is to identify the breed, Dogs NSW allocated Mrs ...... .......... as an assessor. Mrs .......... is qualified to judges Toys only, she has absolutely no qualifications in determining a Staffordshire Bull Terrier from a Pit Bull or any other breed for that matter (except Toys). Mrs .......... assessed that the dog had a pump handle tail therefore was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the fact that it had light eyes and a red nose although makes her scary does not indicate that she is Pit Bull???

This is becoming a very big issue, as this is not the first time this has happened with other assessors. Although, in the past allocation of judges with All Breeds status they are also giving the wrong information about our breed. Our breed is now known as the most dangerous dog in Australia. This is caused by the mismanagement of Dogs NSW who have not kept anyone with breed knowledge in the loop. The Society has no knowledge of how the uneducated assessors came up with information except that they may have supposedly passed a quasi course. This course has been created again by a "judge" with no knowledge of our breed. It is time that the breed owners and the breed clubs stood up and were counted in this very serious matter before our breed is under serious threat.

Please advise your Stafford friends no matter show or pet of the fact that they may be needed very soon to make appointments with their local members regarding this matter

We welcome any comment of and assistance.

Kind regards

Kim Reeder

Secretary

SBTS of NSW Inc

Australia’s Foundation/Parent Club of Australia

Since 1965

[geo]

Maybe the judge likes pitbulls and didn't want it classed as one.. or she is has completely no idea!!!

In other countries staffies are classed at pitbulls so something really needs to be done to protect them.

[rep628]

So can I just clarify..?

" the fact that it had light eyes and a red nose although makes her scary does not indicate that she is Pit Bull??? " - So this woman assessed the dog as a SBT?

Do you understand that according to the AKC/CKC that a SBT can have as the breed standard, "Eyes: dark preferable but may bear some relation to coat colour." and in regards to colour, "Coat and Colour - Coat smooth, short and close to the skin. Colour red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle, or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour not to be encouraged.".

Okay, so she took a very liberal interpretation of the standard. And frankly, I'd take the breed standard of the AKC over the ANKC anyday. Continent of 400 million people over the island of what, 25 million people..

To quote you, "Our breed is now known as the most dangerous dog in Australia. This is caused by the mismanagement of Dogs NSW "

Mismanagement indeed, you failed to realize back in the late 1990's into 2001 that what effects one will ultimately effect all. Dogs NSW/ANKC thought that if they painted the target on the back of the APBT that their precious breeds would remain safe. You have failed your dogs so badly, you turned the notorious Nanny Dog into a headline breed. I only knew B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L English Staffie Bulls back in Canada. Here in Australia I have met mostly anything but, I'll take a proper American Bully over what is in this country any day. Oh yeah, and God how you guys have bred them big over here. Have you people not watched what happened in N. America, they just starting banning everything with a blocky head, square muzzle & short hair? Or did you really think DoucheBags would stop owning Blocky Headed-Square Muzzled, Short Haired Breeds? Mismanagement indeed.

But then again; purebred, pedigreed Staffordshire Bull Terriers are constantly turning up in Dog Fighting busts all over North America now. Again, the lines continue to blur.

If you're still with me Kim, perhaps you should take these suggestions:

1) Get on board with the few of us that are trying to do something about Breed Specific Legislation. Make it known to all Staffie people that you as a club are going to tackle this thing head on AT THE ROOT. Because you've now realized that the target has moved on to your back, and no dog will be safe until Responsible Owner Legislation happens.

2) Repeat step one, because they tighter you attempt to control what is and isn't an English Staffie, the more blood that will be on your breed clubs hand. How many more perfectly good dogs have to die?

3) Talk to some N. American English Staffordshire Bull Terrier Clubs, I'm sure they'll give you some support, and tell you about how the Breed Specific Legislation is as just as much your issue as it is anyone else's.

4) Just repeat Step 1 already. Cause we all know that genetics, unless it's mitochondrial DNA, are actually quite vague - heck, even my guys are Staffordshire Bull Terriers. And if you guys want to turn the genetic diversity of the English Staffie into that of the Pug.. well then, Breed Standards & who interprets what as which are really going to be the least of your worries. But hey, you're an island, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world has done, it's been "working" here.

5) Promote non-breed specific Responsible Dog Ownership laws.. you'll get English Staffies that the vets I work for be proud to handle and have in clinic. But really, that again just goes back to Step 1.

When I first read this topic, I was surprised as to why more people didn't respond. Then I realized that it was a SBT person crying for help - and few people didn't want to "sound obnoxious" like this North American just did. Maybe you now know how the rest of the Bully Breed People felt when they wrote back years ago asking for help.

This evening you may have seen the channel 9 TV show The Enforcers which profiled a Sydney suburban council perusing a person owning a council registered Pit Bull who was refusing to have it assessed as per NSW state Government legislation.

This legislation is to identify the breed, Dogs NSW allocated Mrs ...... .......... as an assessor. Mrs .......... is qualified to judges Toys only, she has absolutely no qualifications in determining a Staffordshire Bull Terrier from a Pit Bull or any other breed for that matter (except Toys). Mrs .......... assessed that the dog had a pump handle tail therefore was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the fact that it had light eyes and a red nose although makes her scary does not indicate that she is Pit Bull???

This is becoming a very big issue, as this is not the first time this has happened with other assessors. Although, in the past allocation of judges with All Breeds status they are also giving the wrong information about our breed. Our breed is now known as the most dangerous dog in Australia. This is caused by the mismanagement of Dogs NSW who have not kept anyone with breed knowledge in the loop. The Society has no knowledge of how the uneducated assessors came up with information except that they may have supposedly passed a quasi course. This course has been created again by a "judge" with no knowledge of our breed. It is time that the breed owners and the breed clubs stood up and were counted in this very serious matter before our breed is under serious threat.

Please advise your Stafford friends no matter show or pet of the fact that they may be needed very soon to make appointments with their local members regarding this matter

We welcome any comment of and assistance.

Kind regards

Kim Reeder

Secretary

SBTS of NSW Inc

Australia’s Foundation/Parent Club of Australia

Since 1965

[chrisjc]

Funny how when the shoes on the other foot the panics and cries for help start.

In the eyes of the Australian Government the Stafford allready is a "pitbull" , it certainly is not a APBT, but its a "pitbull type" that fits into the same "pitbull genre as the APBT, amstaff and the boxer.

I will let you in on something that as a stafford owner and breeder you should allready know. In my old council area there is a section of housing that fits into the lowest form of income earners and unemployed, unfortunately a fair portion of the stereotypes who tend to own these breeds for the wrong reasons. A council AC officer would shop in my shop almost daily, and he knew his dogs and he loved them. They would get at least 30 "loose pitbull" call ins a week, over 6 out of 10 were escaped staffies. Poorly bred staffies but staffies non the less , two would be bull terriers and the other two would be APBT or an APBT cross of some kind.

If in the eyes of joe public its a pitbull, its a pitbull, even when its not close.

[WreckitWhippet]

perhaps the breed assessors like dogs, especially dogs with nice temperaments and they are assessed and passed as either a RB cross ( which allows for temp testing ) or another breed or cross. There's nothing new in this and it has been the "out" for many a nice dog over the years.

I would have thought that Kim Reeder would have been capable of putting together a better response and call to action, then what she's come up with. What would the SBT club of NSW prefer to happen ? what would they consider a suitable method of breed ID and who should be a breed assesor ?

[chrisjc]

A breed assesment would be completely useless and would cause more court cases like the Tango case.

There are Hundreds of dogs that are neither Stafford nor APBT that would fail any assesment, and there are many staffords that could easily pass as an apbt, and the other way round. Same goes for the Amstaff. This is ever present in the UK these days as they still tend to have the working line staffords that have nothing to do with any KC. They could easily be passed as a small apbt with a poor assesment.

The better way would be for people to all get on board trying too prevent all this from day one instead of screaming for help when it is their beloved breed under the spotlight. Nevermind the stereotypical owners worry more about how it will affect the decent owners and your own breed. Thats the real funny thing about alot of us responsible owners of the APBT, we want ALL bsl abolished not just our dogs and we woulld help fight for ALL breeds not just our own.

[bulldogz4eva]

perhaps the breed assessors like dogs, especially dogs with nice temperaments and they are assessed and passed as either a RB cross ( which allows for temp testing ) or another breed or cross. There's nothing new in this and it has been the "out" for many a nice dog over the years.

I would have thought that Kim Reeder would have been capable of putting together a better response and call to action, then what she's come up with. What would the SBT club of NSW prefer to happen ? what would they consider a suitable method of breed ID and who should be a breed assesor ?

Exactly.I am sure the woman knows exactly what type of dog it was and if it was of good temperament,happy and loved and contained in its backyard what is the harm.I would be more concerned about problem dogs with problem owners that wont contain them regardless of the breed.

I am with you if all she can do is stab this person in the back and create some scremongering I wouldnt have much faith in her and I guess its alright if someone elses loving pet is taken away and PTS as long as they doesnt affect her puppy sales.JEEEEZ

[WreckitWhippet]

perhaps the breed assessors like dogs, especially dogs with nice temperaments and they are assessed and passed as either a RB cross ( which allows for temp testing ) or another breed or cross. There's nothing new in this and it has been the "out" for many a nice dog over the years.

I would have thought that Kim Reeder would have been capable of putting together a better response and call to action, then what she's come up with. What would the SBT club of NSW prefer to happen ? what would they consider a suitable method of breed ID and who should be a breed assesor ?

Exactly.I am sure the woman knows exactly what type of dog it was and if it was of good temperament,happy and loved and contained in its backyard what is the harm.I would be more concerned about problem dogs with problem owners that wont contain them regardless of the breed.

I am with you if all she can do is stab this person in the back and create some scremongering I wouldnt have much faith in her and I guess its alright if someone elses loving pet is taken away and PTS as long as they doesnt affect her puppy sales.JEEEEZ

Kim Reeders response would have nothing to do with puppy sales.

I'm just surprised that she wasn't more concise when it came to the email and what she'd like people to do. Simply contacting a local member and saying that you don;t agree with breed ID's is not enough.

[wiseguy]

Breed identification is not the issue.

Breed MISidentification is.

Imo, the the notice from the SBTS of NSW is not a plea for help, but a warning to it's membership their breed, all ready an innocent victim of misreprentation by those seeking to avoid the impost of the restricted breed legislation, is now being threatened by uninformed breed assessors, albeit out of a misplaced sense of compassion, who are undermining their breeds true character, reputation & credibility by officially identifying crossbreeds as their recognised pure breed.

In todays climate of animosity towards canines in general, pitbulls in particular, to deliberately misrepresent a dog as a breed it is not, for the sole purpose of deception, is not only dishonest it is immoral.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers don't need help. They can stand any scrutiny.

What they need is honesty.

What they deserve is honesty.

[geo]

Any dog that resembles a restricted dog breed is in need of help.

[wiseguy]

Any dog that resembles a restricted dog breed is in need of help.

Only if they come under scrutiny for whatever reason, which is more often than not after an ''incident'', where some are invariably misrepresented as Staffordshire Bull Terriers by their owners.

Now it appears accredited breed identifiers are ''officially'' identifying dogs of dubious ancestry as Staffordshire Bull Terriers out of a misguided sense of compassion for individual dogs, without thought or concern of the consequences down the track for the breed they are libelling.

The SBTS of NSW is deploring this disturbing twist to an already worrying situation. They are questioning the credibility of some breed identifiers. Apparently with good reason. It would be pointless complaining to Dogs NSW, a closed shop if there was one, so local members are the next obvious choice.

Which is the topic of this thread.

There is no excuse for deception, especially if it has a potentially devastating effect on the innocent.

Shouldn't a dog of dubious breeding be i.ded simply as ''of mixed breed''?

[WreckitWhippet]

I don't think CAR allows for "mixed breed" or " cross breed unknown" to be listed on the chip details.

A simple change to that, along with additional room to include further details in the discription would solve that problem.

If the breed assessor thinks that the suspected dog is of a restricted breed and has a good temperament, then they can simply mark the dog down as a RB cross and the owner can then have it temp tested.

[geo]

Breed ID is always going to be a tough decision and where there is a chance that a dog is crossed with a SBT people will say it's a SBT cross.

Now I'm not saying that's right or justified, especially as the SBT has enough bad owners to get themselves in trouble.

More dog attacks are committed by breeds other than the APBT, this includes SBT's. Everyone wants to put a label on a dog to give them a reason why dog attacks occur, if a lab attacks it's "out of character", but if a bulldog of any breed attacks, "well you can't trust them dogs can you".

I hope the SBT can withstand any restrictions but until BYBers, bogans and the like are stopped then they will continue to appear in bite stats (not that i care for stats)

[wiseguy]

Breed ID is always going to be a tough decision and where there is a chance that a dog is crossed with a SBT people will say it's a SBT cross.

Now I'm not saying that's right or justified, especially as the SBT has enough bad owners to get themselves in trouble.

More dog attacks are committed by breeds other than the APBT, this includes SBT's. Everyone wants to put a label on a dog to give them a reason why dog attacks occur, if a lab attacks it's "out of character", but if a bulldog of any breed attacks, "well you can't trust them dogs can you".

I hope the SBT can withstand any restrictions but until BYBers, bogans and the like are stopped then they will continue to appear in bite stats (not that i care for stats)

Staffordshire Bull Terriers will continue to appear in bite stats more because of breed misrepresentation than actual breed transgression.

"Any trouble Nigel, just tell them he's a staffy". And so it rolls.

And a ''staffy cross'' is not a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are the archetypal ''people dogs''. None more so on this Earth.

It would be extermely rare for a genuine SBT to bite a human. Even rarer for an unprovoked attack.

Other dogs? that is a different story. SBTs can be dog aggressive.

You are right on the money about one thing though.

Bogans are a definite problem for the bull breeds.

Maybe the problem could be more easily rectified if BSL was actually a "Bogan Specific Legislation"

[geo]

Staffordshire Bull Terriers will continue to appear in bite stats more because of breed misrepresentation than actual breed transgression.

"Any trouble Nigel, just tell them he's a staffy". And so it rolls.

And a ''staffy cross'' is not a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are the archetypal ''people dogs''. None more so on this Earth.

It would be extermely rare for a genuine SBT to bite a human. Even rarer for an unprovoked attack.

Other dogs? that is a different story. SBTs can be dog aggressive.

You are right on the money about one thing though.

Bogans are a definite problem for the bull breeds.

Maybe the problem could be more easily rectified if BSL was actually a "Bogan Specific Legislation"

You don't believe that all the bites that are blamed on SBT's are APBT"s do you? And although Staffy crosses are not

SBT's that is still the part that gets reported and what the public form their opinions on. (sadly)

APBT owners have used the same argument for years, saying that the dog that attacked wasn't a pure bred pitty

and if the truth be known many pitbull attacks are not by pure bred pits, but BYB lookalikes..

but then if you're in the UK or US if it looks like one it is one... which is BS.

[wiseguy]

Staffordshire Bull Terriers will continue to appear in bite stats more because of breed misrepresentation than actual breed transgression.

"Any trouble Nigel, just tell them he's a staffy". And so it rolls.

And a ''staffy cross'' is not a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers are the archetypal ''people dogs''. None more so on this Earth.

It would be extermely rare for a genuine SBT to bite a human. Even rarer for an unprovoked attack.

Other dogs? that is a different story. SBTs can be dog aggressive.

You are right on the money about one thing though.

Bogans are a definite problem for the bull breeds.

Maybe the problem could be more easily rectified if BSL was actually a "Bogan Specific Legislation"

You don't believe that all the bites that are blamed on SBT's are APBT"s do you? And although Staffy crosses are not

SBT's that is still the part that gets reported and what the public form their opinions on. (sadly)

APBT owners have used the same argument for years, saying that the dog that attacked wasn't a pure bred pitty

and if the truth be known many pitbull attacks are not by pure bred pits, but BYB lookalikes..

but then if you're in the UK or US if it looks like one it is one... which is BS.

Am I missing something here?

You appear to be agreeing with what I said while at the same time challenging it?

Strange.

Btw, just in case you dónt know. The APBT is a restricted breed in Australia, however, while there has a been a curious & dramatically decline in their population since the enactment of the B.S.L, there has been a similar increase in the amount of ''staffy crosses'' now in the population. Coincidence? More than a mere coincidence I would suggest

Also, American Staffordshire Terriers & American Pitbull Terriers are both banned breeds in the U.K. The Brits consider them to be the same breed you see. Silly billys.

And the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is experiencing a similar increase in reported antisocial ''incidents'' there as they here.

And for for the same reasons.

Breed misidentification.

If we could deboganise the population the bull breeds would stand a chance.

[geo]

Am I missing something here?

You appear to be agreeing with what I said while at the same time challenging it?

Strange.

Btw, just in case you dónt know. The APBT is a restricted breed in Australia, however, while there has a been a curious & dramatically decline in their population since the enactment of the B.S.L, there has been a similar increase in the amount of ''staffy crosses'' now in the population. Coincidence? More than a mere coincidence I would suggest

Also, American Staffordshire Terriers & American Pitbull Terriers are both banned breeds in the U.K. The Brits consider them to be the same breed you see. Silly billys.

And the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is experiencing a similar increase in reported antisocial ''incidents'' there as they here.

And for for the same reasons.

Breed misidentification.

If we could deboganise the population the bull breeds would stand a chance.

Your correct, I do agree in principal, not challenging it just playing devils advocate..

Yes I know all about the APBT here, I'm also from the UK and know plenty about the restrictions over there.

As for Amstaffs/pits being the same breed, it depends on which side of the fence you sit. As far as public safety goes none is no-more dangerous than the other so it's a pointless argument. According to many local councils if it has no papers it's a pitbull but if you have AKNC papers your dog is safe.

The law makers need to move away from breed id and breed bans, and just target bad owners and dogs who have committed an offence.