What Do You Think Of This Logic?

[pixie_meg]

So I wrote in another thread that Oberon seems to be allergic to ivermectin based heartworm prevention. Now i could try moxidectin based prevention like proheart but i'm a bit wary about that too. so heres the question.

Advantix deters mosquitoes, ticks, fleas and mites. so since it deters mosquitoes which are the carrier of heartworm, would using it during the mosquito season be a decent heartworm prevention? If he doesn't get bitten by mosquitoes he cant get heartworm right?

[Crisovar]

So I wrote in another thread that Oberon seems to be allergic to ivermectin based heartworm prevention. Now i could try moxidectin based prevention like proheart but i'm a bit wary about that too. so heres the question.

Advantix deters mosquitoes, ticks, fleas and mites. so since it deters mosquitoes which are the carrier of heartworm, would using it during the mosquito season be a decent heartworm prevention? If he doesn't get bitten by mosquitoes he cant get heartworm right?

Personally I wouldn't rely upon it.

You could try Dimmitrol.

[Sandra777]

Sounds like good logic to me - but are you prepared to possibly stake his life on an IF???

I'd be trying some other product.

[~Anne~]

You are increasing the risk, however, I reduce the frequency of preventative medication on my dogs during Winter as I feel the risk is low enough to do this.

[fifi]

What about the daily tablets ? they contain DEC and no ivermectin.

Advantix wouldn't give you enough mozzie prevention to cease heartworm protection.

fifi

[pixie_meg]

thanks for your thoughts on the matter guys. i think i'll try proheart. i'd be pretty bad with the dimmitrol since its daily.

[oakway]

Why not have the dog tested to see if he is sensitive to any mectin based heart worm.

That way you will know what not to give.

[pixie_meg]

Why not have the dog tested to see if he is sensitive to any mectin based heart worm.

That way you will know what not to give.

He has had the mdr1 gene test to which he was negative. is it a different test you are talking about? i know that the mdr1 gene is one thing that can make you sensitive to ivermectin but he could also be allergic without having the gene issue. Proheart contains moxidectin, does anyone know how similar this is to ivermectin?

[Eridor]

Moxidectin is a derivative of Ivermectin.

I will copy and paste the list of drugs we are told not to give collies due to the MDR1 issue as this may be of help to you as well. You said he tested negative to the MDR1 test, do you mean he doesnt have the gene, because if that is the case he is sensative to the below drugs? Also ignore the bit in blue as the test is now available

MDR1 Mutant Gene – Drug Sensitivity in some Collies

Studies in USA have found that a large percentage of Collies (& some other breeds) have a mutant gene which leaves them susceptible to undesirable & possibly fatal effects from certain drugs. These dogs do not have the MDR1 gene that produces the protein P-glycoprotein (P-gp).

When P-gp is present & functional the drug cannot remain in the brain – but when it is absent the drug penetrates the brain & stays there setting in motion the circumstances for toxic reaction.

Because the required gene is not there to “block” these drugs from entering the brain blood flow this then sets off a chain reaction of central nervous system dysfunction. Severely affected Collies can lapse into coma and death, usually due to respiratory arrest.

Therefore, it is imperative that ALL Collie owners are aware of this and that certain drugs are NEVER given to a Collie – in any form & in any quantity.

Studies indicate that small doses of “mectin” based drugs (such as in Heartworm preventative treatments etc) are safe. However, I have read reports of adverse reactions in Collies that have been given the “mectin” based Heartworm / flea preventative treatments – too much information for me & enough for me to take the attitude that ANY dosage rate is TOO MUCH & therefore not to be given to a Collie.

A test has recently been developed in the USA (I am not aware of this test being available in Australia yet). This test will determine whether a dog has the required MDR1 gene or not. That is the only way of knowing whether your Collie is safe from use of these drugs or not. I do not know whether samples can be sent to USA from Australia to have this test done however.

Symptoms of Drug Sensitivity to watch for are:

(not all symptoms need to be present)

• Pupil dilation (mydriasis)

• Loss of Coordination (ataxia), may appear “drunk”

• Drooling

• Vomiting (emesis)

• Depression

• Lethargy

• Loss of Appetite (anorexia)

• Diarrhea

• Tremors

• Stupor

• Convulsions (seizures)

• Immobile leaning/lying down (recumbency)

• Paralysis (paresis)

• Excitability

• Coma

On the following page are the drugs that I have been able to find that have been listed as ones to be avoided. There is also a list of drugs listed as “possible dangerous drugs”.

There may be others (including ones in the same families as those listed) that I have not found, so do your own research on any drug BEFORE you give it to your Collie.

If you become aware of another drug not on this list please let me know so that I can add it.

Page 2

The Drugs to avoid are Anti-helminthic pharameuticals that are P-glycoprotein substrates :

This includes all Milbemycins & Avermectins (which are Macrocyclic Lactones)

This family of drugs has many varieties & they are commonly used for treatment of parasitic purposes (eg heartworm, ear mites, intestinal worms, fleas, ticks, mange mite etc etc). They are commonly used & are in the majority of the “monthly tablet & spot ons” for preventative flea/tick/heartworm/worm products. There is also an injectable 6 monthly heartworm treatment which is made from one of these family of drugs.

Members of this family of drugs NOT TO BE USED that I have found are :

-IVERMECTIN (also sold under the product name of Ivomec®)

-MOXIDECTIN (also sold under the product name of Cydectin®)

-MILBEMYCIN OXIME

-SELAMECTIN

-NEMADECTIN

-ABAMECTIN

-DORAMECTIN (mutation of S. avermitilis)

Examples of other drugs NOT TO BE USED that are P-glycoprotein substrates include (but not restricted to):

-erythromycin (antimicrobial agent)

-grepafloxacin (antimicrobial agent)

- doxorubicin (anticancer agent)

-vinca alkaloids (anticancer agent)

-Vincristine (anticancer agent)

-Vinblastine (anticancer agent)

- cyclosporin A (immunosuppressant)

- tacrolimus (immunosuppressant)

-dexamethasone (steroid)

-hydrocortison (steroid)

-loperamide (gastrointestinal drug)

-domperidon (gastrointestinal drug)

-quinidine (cardiac drug)

-digoxin (cardiac drug)

-Loperamide (Imodium® - over the counter antidiarrheal agent)

MORE Drugs that have been listed as “Potential Problem Drugs”:

(NOTE : Biochemical studies have shown that the gene MDR1 has the potential to act on over 50 different drugs, so there may be many more that dogs missing this gene can be affected by)

- Ondansetron

- Domperidone

- Paclitaxel

- Mitoxantrone

- Etoposide

- Rifampicon

- Quinidine

- Morphine

Edited December 19, 2010 by Eridor

[pixie_meg]

Moxidectin is a derivative of Ivermectin.

I will copy and paste the list of drugs we are told not to give collies due to the MDR1 issue as this may be of help to you as well. You said he tested negative to the MDR1 test, do you mean he doesnt have the gene, because if that is the case he is sensative to the below drugs? Also ignore the bit in blue as the test is now available

MDR1 Mutant Gene – Drug Sensitivity in some Collies

Studies in USA have found that a large percentage of Collies (& some other breeds) have a mutant gene which leaves them susceptible to undesirable & possibly fatal effects from certain drugs. These dogs do not have the MDR1 gene that produces the protein P-glycoprotein (P-gp).

When P-gp is present & functional the drug cannot remain in the brain – but when it is absent the drug penetrates the brain & stays there setting in motion the circumstances for toxic reaction.

Because the required gene is not there to “block” these drugs from entering the brain blood flow this then sets off a chain reaction of central nervous system dysfunction. Severely affected Collies can lapse into coma and death, usually due to respiratory arrest.

Therefore, it is imperative that ALL Collie owners are aware of this and that certain drugs are NEVER given to a Collie – in any form & in any quantity.

Studies indicate that small doses of “mectin” based drugs (such as in Heartworm preventative treatments etc) are safe. However, I have read reports of adverse reactions in Collies that have been given the “mectin” based Heartworm / flea preventative treatments – too much information for me & enough for me to take the attitude that ANY dosage rate is TOO MUCH & therefore not to be given to a Collie.

A test has recently been developed in the USA (I am not aware of this test being available in Australia yet). This test will determine whether a dog has the required MDR1 gene or not. That is the only way of knowing whether your Collie is safe from use of these drugs or not. I do not know whether samples can be sent to USA from Australia to have this test done however.

Symptoms of Drug Sensitivity to watch for are:

(not all symptoms need to be present)

• Pupil dilation (mydriasis)

• Loss of Coordination (ataxia), may appear “drunk”

• Drooling

• Vomiting (emesis)

• Depression

• Lethargy

• Loss of Appetite (anorexia)

• Diarrhea

• Tremors

• Stupor

• Convulsions (seizures)

• Immobile leaning/lying down (recumbency)

• Paralysis (paresis)

• Excitability

• Coma

On the following page are the drugs that I have been able to find that have been listed as ones to be avoided. There is also a list of drugs listed as “possible dangerous drugs”.

There may be others (including ones in the same families as those listed) that I have not found, so do your own research on any drug BEFORE you give it to your Collie.

If you become aware of another drug not on this list please let me know so that I can add it.

Page 2

The Drugs to avoid are Anti-helminthic pharameuticals that are P-glycoprotein substrates :

This includes all Milbemycins & Avermectins (which are Macrocyclic Lactones)

This family of drugs has many varieties & they are commonly used for treatment of parasitic purposes (eg heartworm, ear mites, intestinal worms, fleas, ticks, mange mite etc etc). They are commonly used & are in the majority of the “monthly tablet & spot ons” for preventative flea/tick/heartworm/worm products. There is also an injectable 6 monthly heartworm treatment which is made from one of these family of drugs.

Members of this family of drugs NOT TO BE USED that I have found are :

-IVERMECTIN (also sold under the product name of Ivomec®)

-MOXIDECTIN (also sold under the product name of Cydectin®)

-MILBEMYCIN OXIME

-SELAMECTIN

-NEMADECTIN

-ABAMECTIN

-DORAMECTIN (mutation of S. avermitilis)

Examples of other drugs NOT TO BE USED that are P-glycoprotein substrates include (but not restricted to):

-erythromycin (antimicrobial agent)

-grepafloxacin (antimicrobial agent)

- doxorubicin (anticancer agent)

-vinca alkaloids (anticancer agent)

-Vincristine (anticancer agent)

-Vinblastine (anticancer agent)

- cyclosporin A (immunosuppressant)

- tacrolimus (immunosuppressant)

-dexamethasone (steroid)

-hydrocortison (steroid)

-loperamide (gastrointestinal drug)

-domperidon (gastrointestinal drug)

-quinidine (cardiac drug)

-digoxin (cardiac drug)

-Loperamide (Imodium® - over the counter antidiarrheal agent)

MORE Drugs that have been listed as “Potential Problem Drugs”:

(NOTE : Biochemical studies have shown that the gene MDR1 has the potential to act on over 50 different drugs, so there may be many more that dogs missing this gene can be affected by)

- Ondansetron

- Domperidone

- Paclitaxel

- Mitoxantrone

- Etoposide

- Rifampicon

- Quinidine

- Morphine

thank you for that. I will have to check with my vet as to the actual test result. His allergic symptoms however do not match the list. his issues appear to be only skin lumps which develop into sores.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Are you sure it's not the beef/chicken flavouring?

[pixie_meg]

Are you sure it's not the beef/chicken flavouring?

good point, which heartwormers aren't flavoured?

[raffikki]

How about Revolution

It says on the packet it contains Selamectin

[Staranais]

It's a ML, so I'd think probably not safe.

[sllebasi]

my dog is sensitive to beef products I now give proheart which doesnt seem to affect her, but i would be checking with the vets first as to what the problem actually is.

[sheena]

So I wrote in another thread that Oberon seems to be allergic to ivermectin based heartworm prevention. Now i could try moxidectin based prevention like proheart but i'm a bit wary about that too. so heres the question.

Advantix deters mosquitoes, ticks, fleas and mites. so since it deters mosquitoes which are the carrier of heartworm, would using it during the mosquito season be a decent heartworm prevention? If he doesn't get bitten by mosquitoes he cant get heartworm right?

Seeing that Advantix can't even "repel" ticks, then I wouldn't rely on it to repel mozzies

[Staff'n'Toller]

Are you sure it's not the beef/chicken flavouring?

good point, which heartwormers aren't flavoured?

Milbemax tablets.

Valuheart? Maybe someone can confirm this? I haven't seen them IRL.

[sheena]

Are you sure it's not the beef/chicken flavouring?

good point, which heartwormers aren't flavoured?

Milbemax tablets.

Valuheart? Maybe someone can confirm this? I haven't seen them IRL.

My Girl's on Valuheart & they are flavoured

[pixie_meg]

Just wanted to update the thread to say that Oberons test results for MDR1 were normal. So no problem there. We'll be trying Proheart tablets.

[poodlefan]

Just wanted to update the thread to say that Oberons test results for MDR1 were normal. So no problem there. We'll be trying Proheart tablets.

This is what I use on Howie.

Just brain storming here but I wonder if some of those other products get a reaction due to Oberon's low body fat ratio. Might explain the lesions. Is Ivermectin stored in body fat????