How Do You Choose A Trainer Or Behaviourist

[Staff'n'Toller]

My understanding is that being a Vet is not the only way in to behaviour, so yes if you had the relevant quallies in animal behaviour then you can, however that is only my take on the situation.

You'd be able to get an answer by emailing AVA Behaviour Special Interest Group though.

[aussielover]

A veterinary behaviourist would have at least one degree (vet) and potentially a Phd also.

To qualify it takes at least 5 years and you have to have a reasonable amount of practical expereince working as an intern for a qualified behaviourist.

The benefit of a vet behaviourist is that they can prescribe medications if necessary, they are also guaranteed to have at least some practical experience. They are also answerable to the veterinary board for their state, so any problems with them can be reported to a controlling body.

This of course doesn't mean they will achieve better or even equal results as a very experienced dog trainer, but it does take some of the uncertainty out of the decision.

If you are not comportable with a trainer or you're not seeing results, its time to look elsewhere.

DOL is a great place to get recommendations.

Additionally, I would also look at the behaviour of the dog/animal of the person recommending the trainer.

[JulesP]

The animal behaviorist I know has a degree in Zoology, a PhD in Animal Behavior and a diploma in counseling. I would still recommend someone with a bitey GSD to call K9Pro rather than them. I would recommend this person to someone with a naughty white fluffy that bites every time Mumsy tried to get Snookums off the bed.

[Staranais]

I've had a look at the AVBIG website, it says nothing about their members being the only ones allowed to call themselves behaviourists.

Neither does the website of the Animal Behaviour chapter of the Australian College of Veterinary Sciences.

:D

[Aidan]

The animal behaviorist I know has a degree in Zoology, a PhD in Animal Behavior and a diploma in counseling. I would still recommend someone with a bitey GSD to call K9Pro rather than them. I would recommend this person to someone with a naughty white fluffy that bites every time Mumsy tried to get Snookums off the bed.

I'm not doubting your recommendation, but I'm just wondering why you would make this distinction? (I have some ideas, but I'm interested in your answer).

[Aidan]

Should you be a qualified Trainer with a Cert III or Cert IV, and you stuff up for whatever reason and end up in court, a Veterinary Behaviourist will be called to provide expert opinion against you and that you would be taken to task if you were advertising as a Behaviourist without the relevant studies to back you up.

The point is that anyone can get away with it, but it might bite you later if you end up getting sued for whatever reason.

That's why I say "Dog training and behaviour modification", and recommend a veterinary opinion first in all cases (for reactive and aggressive dogs).

That said, of all the appalling things I have seen trainers do to dogs, all the misguided and dangerous practices, and never have I seen anyone haul one of these trainers before the courts to make them accountable. The only cases I know of were cases where the trainer did nothing wrong, but was sued anyway (e.g recommending in writing that the dog is PTS, but sued for not making the case strongly enough).

[JulesP]

The animal behaviorist I know has a degree in Zoology, a PhD in Animal Behavior and a diploma in counseling. I would still recommend someone with a bitey GSD to call K9Pro rather than them. I would recommend this person to someone with a naughty white fluffy that bites every time Mumsy tried to get Snookums off the bed.

I'm not doubting your recommendation, but I'm just wondering why you would make this distinction? (I have some ideas, but I'm interested in your answer).

I don't think the AB could deal effectively with a bitey GSD and K9pro would probably rather not deal with Snookums :D

[Staranais]

OK, I'm confused, and want an answer to whether 4Paws is correct, so have emailed the Australian Veterinary Behaviour Interest Group. Hopefully they'll reply.

"Hi there,

This is a question for the AVBIG, please.

I would like to ask about the legalities of the term "dog behaviourist" in Australia.

If someone who is not a AVA member calls themselves a "dog behaviourist", are they misrepresenting themselves, and can they be penalised for it?

Or does the term "dog behaviourist" not imply AVA membership?

Thanks!"

[Nekhbet]

4Paws, the course is Nationally recognised training and has had to undergo rigorous investigation/ application to be so. There certainly is a particular standard as well so i am not sure how you draw those conclusions.

Actually 4Paws has a point the NDTF graduates are not recognised as dog trainers unless they register themselves with one of these orginisations, being a memeber only with the NDTF and a qualified trainer will not get you far according to DPI :

Approved training organisations

The legislation requires Councils to charge a reduced registration fee for dogs that have undergone obedience training which complies with the Regulations.

Organisations whose dog obedience assessment programs are approved under the Domestic Animals Regulations 2005 are:

* Victorian Canine Association (VCA)

* Australian Association of Professional Dog Trainers Inc

* Australian Association of Gentle Modern Dog Training Instructors

* Delta Society Australia

* Top Dog K9 Trainers Academy

The program must be conducted by a qualified dog trainer who is a member of one of these organisations.

Dogs that have undergone an assessment program administered by the above and have been issued with the official ‘Dog Obedience Certificate' are eligible for the reduced registration fee in the Schedule to the Act. The other certificates that qualify a dog for the reduced registration fee are certificates of obedience titles that are recognised by the Australian National Kennel Control.

No, I'm saying that the law would be asking for your qualifications and if you have no degree +/- post grad studies in animal behaviour you could be in lots of hot water dealing with a behaviour problem that they would consider to be out of your area of knowledge.

This is from Veterinary Behaviourists practicing in Australia.

Considering there is no law stating that only X qualifications can make you a behaviourist then thats not technically right. Even a veterinary behaviourist can make massive mistakes, the difference is they will have the AVA holding their hand when the poo hits the fan. They problem is THEY consider it out of your knowledge because you dont have a piece of paper stating that you managed to pass with enough knowledge to get you a wall ornament in a frame - no part of it states that they will get results or be good at their jobs. As for a PhD I would rather see them having practically solved problem dogs with success then written a thesis. I was asked to stay on at Uni and continue on but I would rather be out there with my sleeves rolled up then in a library tapping away on a keyboard... what do you think will get me better experience with animals. When you read a textbook you read someone elses point of view. When you read journal articles they are also a modified perspective on that subject (god knows I've read enough of them) When dealing with animals you need to get out there and learn, feel, experience, trial and error with your own dogs etc. That is what behaviour is about... and considering the domestic canine is not simply living in a 'wild' environment anymore but a man made, human first one well there is more then just the dogs primal behaviours to consider. We have different expectations from the domestic dog then we do any other creature on the planet. Saying you can treat any animal to me is a massive claim, considering 1) how many different species we keep as domestic pets and how in depth you would have to be with each and 2) many people I know who have been into that particular species for decades say 'you never stop learning'. I think the AVA is trying a stunt to corner the market and allow their members to feel 'special' and charge like wounded bulls.

I wont stop saying I deal with behaviour. Sue me for what little I have lying around if that makes the big organisations feel special. But pound for pound I'll take on any dog, and if I cant deal with it I'm not too proud to tell the owner to move onto someone who I know has the skills and experience for that particular problem because for me, the dog is #1, not my wallet. Saying that I dont state I have a degree in animal behaviour so there is no misrepresentation at all on my behalf. I already have 2 degrees and 10 years experience with animals, particularly dogs and have sucessfully used behavioural modification in solving aggression, fear, anxiety, unsocialised animals, trauma etc. If that doesnt count for anything it's sad really.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

A veterinary behaviourist would have at least one degree (vet) and potentially a Phd also.

I thought to call themselves a vet behaviourist they needed to have a BVM and a PhD in animal behaviour.

DOL is a great place to get recommendations.

Really? I tried just last week and didn't get any. I suspect the people I ended up suggesting my friend get in touch with have waiting lists a mile long. It's kind of an urgent problem. If it doesn't get sorted very quickly my guess is the dog in question will be in dire straits. :D

[corvus]

I was asked to stay on at Uni and continue on but I would rather be out there with my sleeves rolled up then in a library tapping away on a keyboard... what do you think will get me better experience with animals.

You can get loads of experience with animals at uni. I actually found the opportunities to be had there for practical experience were excellent. I did four seasons in the field with various bird species and a bit on some invertebrates and mammals before I went out into the real world. I'm currently gearing up to collect data on a couple of hundred dogs (in my dreams). I will not be spending much of the next two years in a library.

[Quickasyoucan]

I would think legally the only thing that would get you in hot water would be calling yourself a veterinary behaviourist when you aren't one, same as if you called yourself a vet when you weren't one.

Since there is no nationalregulation of the profession of behaviourist (without the "vet" bit) then then behaviourists would be in the same position as a trainer legally speaking in that I guess they have to worry about their public liability not misrepresentation claims.

What is interesting, though, is that you can be appointed by a governmental body as an approved behavioural assessor when it comes to dangerous dog legislation and I know for sure all the people who are approved assesors are not veterinary behaviourists.

Back to the original topic, personal recommendations and my own personal experience. I found it invaluable to do a general seminar with the person to whom I entrusted my dog.

[aussielover]

I thought to call themselves a vet behaviourist they needed to have a BVM and a PhD in animal behaviour.

They would need a vet degree and also a fellowship or international equivalent in animal behaviour, which may or may not involve doing a PhD, depending on the university/program.

[Nekhbet]

You can get loads of experience with animals at uni. I actually found the opportunities to be had there for practical experience were excellent. I did four seasons in the field with various bird species and a bit on some invertebrates and mammals before I went out into the real world. I'm currently gearing up to collect data on a couple of hundred dogs (in my dreams). I will not be spending much of the next two years in a library.

I mean with rehabilitating dogs which is what I am interested in.

[corvus]

Then go do a PhD on rehabilitating dogs. That's what the Constructional Aggression Treatment folks did.

[aussielover]

Then go do a PhD on rehabilitating dogs. That's what the Constructional Aggression Treatment folks did.

I don't think its that simple?

Firstly you have to have a degree and preferably a first class honours or masters degree also.

This is important to get a scholarship. It is almost impossibe to do a PhD without a scholarship unless you are already wealthy and don't need to work.

Then you have to find an available project and supervisor. Supervisors often have very specific projects but some are more open to suggestion than others.

I don't think getting a PhD is the simplest and certainly not the only way to learn how to rehabilitate aggressive dogs.

[4paws]

The point I am making is that there is a ligitimate professional title called an Animal Behaviour Consultant qualification "behaviourist" and the many dog trainers who claim to be a "behaviourist" are not. The accepted definition of an animal behaviourist is a person registered by the AVA, not a dog trainer who has appointed themselves with a such a title and don't have AVA registration.

Ah, this is my point. Accepted definition by whom? You are the only person I have ever talked to who seems to think that calling oneself a dog behaviourist implies that one is AVA registered .

Can you please tell us who decided that only people with AVA registration should be called behaviourists, or is it something that you just made up yourself?

Can you please also give us the Australian Veterinarian Association link to how one becomes a behaviourist, so we can see what they say on the subject?

By law Staranais.

[poodlefan]

The animal behaviorist I know has a degree in Zoology, a PhD in Animal Behavior and a diploma in counseling. I would still recommend someone with a bitey GSD to call K9Pro rather than them. I would recommend this person to someone with a naughty white fluffy that bites every time Mumsy tried to get Snookums off the bed.

I'm not doubting your recommendation, but I'm just wondering why you would make this distinction? (I have some ideas, but I'm interested in your answer).

I don't think the AB could deal effectively with a bitey GSD and K9pro would probably rather not deal with Snookums

K9Pro deals very effectively with Snookums.. I've seen him do great work with a timid poodle.

[persephone]

By law

Can you show us where?

Is 'Animal Behaviourist' different to 'Dog behaviourist', with regards the law?

[4paws]

I think 4paws is alluding to this sort of thing that happens very frequently here: link none of the trainers replied with "well I'm a Trainer actually, but feel free to contact me" it was "who is a good behavourist in Melbourne?" and any Trainers who put their hand up in such threads but do not correct the OP or the posters making the suggestions, in a sense by not saying anything, they are taking ownership of that title.

We covered this in Cert IV actually, in that 5 years ago it was starting to become endemic then for those trainers who've done some Cert IV level studies. The general consensus was that it's a bit of a hollow advertisement. Should you be a qualified Trainer with a Cert III or Cert IV, and you stuff up for whatever reason and end up in court, a Veterinary Behaviourist will be called to provide expert opinion against you and that you would be taken to task if you were advertising as a Behaviourist without the relevant studies to back you up.

The point is that anyone can get away with it, but it might bite you later if you end up getting sued for whatever reason.

That's correct. The opinion of a qualified behaviourist will override that of a trainer in a court of law in relation to animal behaviour.