Old School Type Training

[LizT]

If people want to chuck their dogs around, they'll rationalise it somehow - as you found when offering an alternative method. I think you've done all you could do, maybe at some later stage when the dog is stopping short on her or something she'll think back to your conversation and reconsider.

Personally, even leaving aside the ethical issues of using more force than necessary, I'd not want to be paying the chiro bills for that puppy. That is probably what I would have said. I find an appeal to practical consequences works much better than an appeal for gentle mindfulness.

In my experience in Obedience training which goes back 30 years and various CLubs I have seen this method done many times by those instructors who do not believe in using food as a bribe.

Used properly and in a targeted way, food shoudn't be a bribe tho'. Agree tho' that there are a range of ways of teaching a drop, and the method the OP describes isn't the only non-food method.

I'm sure there are many kinder variations on the theme. Did the OP describe a method? I missed that. I thought she just offered to show an alternative (I didn't know if there was food involved or not).

[LizT]

I agree that that sounds terrible but just wanted to add that with some dogs after other foundation work, "foot on lead" does not have to be nasty or horrible. It is a technique that should be used very carefully though and i think what i think when i think of that technique would be different to what you saw as well.

I think offering an alternative was a nice and appropriate thing for you to do. It is hard though- people believe what they are told in many cases, even when they shouldn't.

This is so true, sometimes people put their instructors on a pedestal and feel they can do no wrong. (I've seen in horse riding and martial arts over and over again).

[animalia]

I have witnessed old school training at it's worst! I used to work for a guy, not at a training club but another type of establishment that still believed that if the dog didn't do what he asked it to do he would with no hesitation thump it either with fists or kicking it or if the dog was doing something he didn't like e.g barking he would also thump it. Needless to say I didn't work there long!

[huski]

It's so sad to me that clubs are really progressive with training methods in agility but more often than not are so backward in obedience training.

The training you mentioned is what I too often see at club obedience training, I hope it will change:(( Obedience training should be fun and can be.

Yep I agree. And it frustrates me to no end, even going to an obedience trial you see people handle their dogs in ways I find quite atrocious, I will never understand why people don't care if their dog WANTS to work for them or is happy to do so, as long as the dog does what it is told. Nothing looks worse than a dog basically going through the paces, with no real relationship with the handler. Yuck.

LizT, using food rewards does not need to be about bribing the dog, if you are using food as a bribe you are using it incorrectly IMO.

[Gamby]

I have just has a look at the newsletter and this instructor is the president of the club ;)

OMG

[Nekhbet]

I think people misunderstand ... there is 'old school' training as people so shallowly call it, and then there is animal cruelty. If you cant get a 4 month old pup to comply without mashing its head into the ground then pushing it into avoidance then you're not a trainer you're an idiot.

The stepping on the leash has its uses but not on a pup that young.

[persephone]

I was trained in 'old school 'training ... and none of it involved hitting/kicking/excessive force.There were some decent corrections using chain collars .. but there was also plenty of praise/reward for a job well learnt/done .

A lot of what is described here..including the first description is just bullying/cruelty.

[huski]

I think people misunderstand ... there is 'old school' training as people so shallowly call it, and then there is animal cruelty. If you cant get a 4 month old pup to comply without mashing its head into the ground then pushing it into avoidance then you're not a trainer you're an idiot.

The stepping on the leash has its uses but not on a pup that young.

The term old school training is hardly shallow, what else would you call marching around a paddock for an hour yanking your dog around on a check chain with you? Check chains themselves aren't old school if used correctly, but there are far better ways to teach obedience than popping a dog on the leash every time it steps out of 'heel position'.

[Nekhbet]

The term old school training is hardly shallow, what else would you call marching around a paddock for an hour yanking your dog around on a check chain with you

stupid.

rewards have been part of dog training for a long time, people who chose to abuse dogs and call it dog training whatever the method should not be training. I use 'old school' methods and I dont cause dogs to shy away from me or torment animals.

[JulesP]

I was trained in 'old school 'training ... and none of it involved hitting/kicking/excessive force.There were some decent corrections using chain collars .. but there was also plenty of praise/reward for a job well learnt/done .

A lot of what is described here..including the first description is just bullying/cruelty.

Same. I even carried treats around

[Agility Dogs]

I have to say that I agree with the OP, but I don't see any amount of complaining fixing the problem. To sort out that sort of attitude you need to get in and make the organisation change by becoming involved.

I HATE seeing dogs treated that way and there are a couple of clubs up here who do practice that. The second last time I went to obedience club I had an argument with the chief instructor who, after really harshly correcting a little dog demanded my lead so she could show me how to deal with my boy. (He was a little bit slow to sit.)

I told her that I would work through the issue, but that she wasn't going to be handling my dog if that was how she treated other people's animals. The last time I went she decided she needed to aggressively walk up into my young dog's face while she was on a stand stay and then tell me my dog wasn't that good after all.

The most disappointing thing is that I KNOW that this person doesn't train her own dogs that harshly and that as a judge she would not walk into a dog's face like that. She is just a bully and is sadly teaching others to bully their dogs that way. I've seen other instructors do the same thing - I just don't understand it.

Point being - it is a shame that so many clubs still practice these training methods - whatever you choose to call them. Some people don't want to treat their dogs this way and most don't need to. I agree that correction is sometimes necessary, but it is not a one size fits all and in the vast majority of cases it isn't necessary if a dog has the right foundations. Yes, it can be quicker, but IMO it doesn't build a better result long term.

[huski]

stupid.

rewards have been part of dog training for a long time, people who chose to abuse dogs and call it dog training whatever the method should not be training. I use 'old school' methods and I dont cause dogs to shy away from me or torment animals.

I see plenty of obedience clubs that use rewards, but the training overall is still old school/old fashioned. Old fashioned doesn't always mean cruel, or that rewards are never used. Walking up and down 'heeling' your dog for an hour, no matter how you dress it up, is old school and not how any top triallers I know teach their dogs obedience. At best, the dogs get bored and switch off, at worse you see methods like the one the OP saw being used. Like Agility Dogs, I have no problems with corrections at all, but at every obedience club I've been to I see them used too often, when they aren't necessary or incorrectly. Most obedience clubs still used very old fashioned methods, especially compared to a lot of agility clubs which tend to be more progressive.

Why would you label yourself as an old school trainer Nekhbet? What does it mean to you? I don't use the word old school or old fashion as a way of implying modern methods are purely positive or some other drivel, but you have to admit that a lot of obedience clubs still paddock bash and use corrections when they are not IMO necessary and those methods ARE out dated.

[Erny]

I was trained in 'old school 'training ... and none of it involved hitting/kicking/excessive force.There were some decent corrections using chain collars .. but there was also plenty of praise/reward for a job well learnt/done .

A lot of what is described here..including the first description is just bullying/cruelty.

Same. I even carried treats around

Actually, I was just venturing in here to say that the sort of treatment described should not be called "old school". "Old School" has its place. It shouldn't be denigrated falsely as being abusive and bad training. But you have beat me to it.

And I too use a LOT of positive reinforcement and motivational techniques.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Erny

[huski]

I think it depends on what your definition of 'old fashioned/old school' is. In an obedience club setting like the one the OP was talking about, the paddock bashing classes where dogs are given a good leash correction when they step out of place (instead of, say, actually teaching them where heel position is) is what I think of when I think of old school training.

[skip]

THis from Agility Dogs

I have to say that I agree with the OP, but I don't see any amount of complaining fixing the problem. To sort out that sort of attitude you need to get in and make the organisation change by becoming involved.

I attend one club with great agility training and from what I have seen - similar obedience. I go to another club as the time suits me more and I was surprised at the different training and methods used.

Edited December 21, 2010 by skip

[rastus_froggy]

Sorry to those I offended by calling it 'old school' traning, I did not meant to cause offence.

I presume that this is the way this trainer was taught and has just continued doing this, I don't think that this trainer has ever or would ever go to any courses to refresh or update on training methods, which I find very sad.

I have had a few pm's that have really got me thinking. Over the break I will have a think about what I may be able to do to help out.

Wouldn't it just be the perfect world if we could just get this obedience school to have trialling obedience and "regular person" obedience that covered the things that people use every day (plus the less harsh methods currently used).

[abed]

I think it depends on what your definition of 'old fashioned/old school' is. In an obedience club setting like the one the OP was talking about, the paddock bashing classes where dogs are given a good leash correction when they step out of place (instead of, say, actually teaching them where heel position is) is what I think of when I think of old school training.

I can think of a few working line GSD's that might change your mind about old school training Huski Not jumping on the leash as the OP described, that's old school abuse, but hard dogs don't mind a good correction and will often pull them into line instantly and solve a problem that other methods can take weeks to condition. Some working dogs will give you the finger on the basis that strength and power over the handler is fun for the dog, they will seriously laugh at you trying to manage them sometimes. Trainers don't correct these types of dogs, use prong collars and Ecollars to be old school, some dogs need that type of training as it's the only foundation work they respect

[huski]

I think it depends on what your definition of 'old fashioned/old school' is. In an obedience club setting like the one the OP was talking about, the paddock bashing classes where dogs are given a good leash correction when they step out of place (instead of, say, actually teaching them where heel position is) is what I think of when I think of old school training.

I can think of a few working line GSD's that might change your mind about old school training Huski Not jumping on the leash as the OP described, that's old school abuse, but hard dogs don't mind a good correction and will often pull them into line instantly and solve a problem that other methods can take weeks to condition. Some working dogs will give you the finger on the basis that strength and power over the handler is fun for the dog, they will seriously laugh at you trying to manage them sometimes. Trainers don't correct these types of dogs, use prong collars and Ecollars to be old school, some dogs need that type of training as it's the only foundation work they respect

But I'm not implying that 'old school' means giving a correction. I'm talking about the old fashioned obedience classes that march people and their dogs up and down the paddock for an hour. The exact same kind of training that will tell people on the first night to line their dogs up at heel position, step off and give the dog a leash correction as soon as they walk in front of them. THAT is old fashioned training and we know better nowadays which is why none of the top triallers I know use train their competition dogs in those kinds of classes.

I am NOT saying using corrections or check chains or prongs or e-collars are old fashioned/old school at all. But I am awfully tired of you pedalling out the same old arguments in each thread, aren't you bored yet???

Edited December 22, 2010 by huski

[abed]

I think it depends on what your definition of 'old fashioned/old school' is. In an obedience club setting like the one the OP was talking about, the paddock bashing classes where dogs are given a good leash correction when they step out of place (instead of, say, actually teaching them where heel position is) is what I think of when I think of old school training.

I can think of a few working line GSD's that might change your mind about old school training Huski Not jumping on the leash as the OP described, that's old school abuse, but hard dogs don't mind a good correction and will often pull them into line instantly and solve a problem that other methods can take weeks to condition. Some working dogs will give you the finger on the basis that strength and power over the handler is fun for the dog, they will seriously laugh at you trying to manage them sometimes. Trainers don't correct these types of dogs, use prong collars and Ecollars to be old school, some dogs need that type of training as it's the only foundation work they respect

But I'm not implying that 'old school' means giving a correction. I'm talking about the old fashioned obedience classes that march people and their dogs up and down the paddock for an hour. The exact same kind of training that will tell people on the first night to line their dogs up at heel position, step off and give the dog a leash correction as soon as they walk in front of them. THAT is old fashioned training and we know better nowadays which is why none of the top triallers I know use train their competition dogs in those kinds of classes.

I am NOT saying using corrections or check chains or prongs or e-collars are old fashioned/old school at all. But I am awfully tired of you pedalling out the same old arguments in each thread, aren't you bored yet???

Paddock bashing is not the context of the thread Huski, it's about old school aversives eg. stepping on the leash for a drop as the OP described???. However, those old training classes still produce good pet obedience when done properly although it's a bit boring. They are not training competition dogs and the people who join these classes are usually beginners learning basic leash handling skills.

[Skruffy n Flea]

to the OP [rastus_froggy is it!?!?]

...and then there is animal cruelty. If you cant get a 4 month old pup to comply without mashing its head into the ground then pushing it into avoidance then you're not a trainer you're an idiot.

...

i reckon you could use nekhbet's words in your letter BUT i also read that you have received PMs and that they probably contained far better advice than anything i could suggest

i struggle loose leash walking with my two:

bella we've had since she was 12 weeks old turned 2 last july, did puppy school but then her training fell thru the cracks [for want of better terminology]...

byron we adopted 14 months ago, he's about 3 or 4-ish and is an unknown entity and every layer we peel seems to reveal another issue --- atm he's telling me that he has an issue with larger dogs...

in any event, i'm using far too many techniques and none of them are working, despite my best efforts and i'm a tad ashamed to say that if i had a paddock, i'd likely be called a paddock walker ;)

it's hard to find a trainer, let alone one you can trust...