Old School Type Training

[rastus_froggy]

Today we had our dog school Christmas Party, I do agility and it's on a different day to the obedience classes so have never seen this clubs obedience classes before.

I got there before the fun stuff had started so went into the beginner class (the dog I had with me today has only ever done agility and has never been in an obedience class).

Anyway we are going along and we were told to drop our dogs, the girl next to me (she was about 20ish) had a pup who was probably about 4 and a half months old, it wouldn't drop so the insturctor came over and took the pup and said "this is how you do it" held the lead got her foot and trod hard and fast on the lead crashing the pups head hard into the ground. The poor pup was thrashing aroung crying and yelping, eventually the pup did settle a little, and the instructor said "see". The poor pup then cowered everytime the instructor came near.

So of course next time we were told to drop our dogs, the girl did this, the pup flopped itself around and eventually layed there.

I was HORRIFIED to see that people still teach like this.

I went to the girl later and said, if you like I can show you another way to get your dog to drop so that it wont be scared of you, she said "no thanks sometimes he just needs something like that to snap him into line"

I spoke to my agility instructor about this and she said it is the way this woman teaches and they convince people that this is the way to train their dogs.

Is there anywhere I can report this to?

This honestly made me feel ill, needless to say I left early and didn't stick around for the Christmas celebrations.

Chances are the instructor is a member here and will read this but I don't care.

[LizT]

In my experience in Obedience training which goes back 30 years and various CLubs I have seen this method done many times by those instructors who do not believe in using food as a bribe. Particularly if the dog is later to learn food refusal.

It is most unpleasant to watch and I personally have seen many far better non food methods used in a much kindlier fashion, such as placing the dog gently into the position by gently lifting both legs out in front of him with a single sweep of your arm. Far nicer.

And yet recently (last five years ) I saw an instructor use a very rough method such as stepping on the lead close to the dogs head on a Staffy pup who wasn't cooperating in being shown. The pup was clearly distressed and the owner never returned to training.

Personally I'm not a big fan of using bribes in training but I don't believe the alternative is brute force either. I think varying methods are needed for different breeds and individuals alike.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If people want to chuck their dogs around, they'll rationalise it somehow - as you found when offering an alternative method. I think you've done all you could do, maybe at some later stage when the dog is stopping short on her or something she'll think back to your conversation and reconsider.

Personally, even leaving aside the ethical issues of using more force than necessary, I'd not want to be paying the chiro bills for that puppy. That is probably what I would have said. I find an appeal to practical consequences works much better than an appeal for gentle mindfulness.

In my experience in Obedience training which goes back 30 years and various CLubs I have seen this method done many times by those instructors who do not believe in using food as a bribe.

Used properly and in a targeted way, food shoudn't be a bribe tho'. Agree tho' that there are a range of ways of teaching a drop, and the method the OP describes isn't the only non-food method.

[OSoSwift]

HOw awful! Anyone did that to my pup and they would be decked!

HAving said that if they want to MAKE a dog/puppy drop. there is a pressure point behind the shoulder blades where you can put pressure on (quite a decent amount but should never hurt) and they will go down, they don't have a choice. Whilst I don't do it that way either it would have to be nicer than the lead stomp!!!! Blimey charlie!

Used correctly food isn't a bribe and you can still use food to treat a dog and train food refusal. You just need to think it through and use your brains.

I am not suprised you were horrified and I am not suprised you left. I would assume the best place to put in a complaint would be to the president of the club and write a letter so it is formal and included in the minutes.

[rastus_froggy]

I have just has a look at the newsletter and this instructor is the president of the club

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i teach my pups to drop and sit before they go to obedience...using food so by the time they are 4 months old they are doing it really well.

i only use food so they get the hang of what the command means then when they are reliably doing it i don't use food any more.

i do the same with stay but that i make a game with no food.

by 4-6 months old they know the basic commands and training is just getting them more reliable with more distractions.

food has its place but i can say i went to a purely food training course and this didn't work for my dog (no slip collars allowed) and i have been to traditional training.

i would never let anyone take my dogs lead ever, because i have seen the same thing done to other dogs

i don't think there is much of a chance of change if she is the president

but if the club is affiliated with the state kennel club then could you complain there?

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Cosmolo]

I agree that that sounds terrible but just wanted to add that with some dogs after other foundation work, "foot on lead" does not have to be nasty or horrible. It is a technique that should be used very carefully though and i think what i think when i think of that technique would be different to what you saw as well.

I think offering an alternative was a nice and appropriate thing for you to do. It is hard though- people believe what they are told in many cases, even when they shouldn't.

[Cosmolo]

Oh dear Rastus.. Could you raise it with an anonymous complaint addressed to the whole committee?

Just wanted to also add that things like this are very frustrating because they make people reluctant to let an instructor demonstrate with their dog- its really sad as sometimes using an owners dog to help explain a concept to them is very beneficial. When someone hands you their dog- they trust you- and you shouldn't do anything that breaches that trust or the dogs.

[rastus_froggy]

Yeah Cosmolo I do understand what you are referring to when you are talking about the foot on lead and what I saw was definately not that.

I think I will still raise the issue with a letter.

Also too I think the girl with the pup may have looked at me like, what would you know I have been coming here for a while and never seen you here before why should I listen to you.

I guess instructor numbers are limited and if there were any other people interested in instructing in a nice manner they would probably just head over to the other club in town (which does not do agility).

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Oh dear Rastus.. Could you raise it with an anonymous complaint addressed to the whole committee?

Just wanted to also add that things like this are very frustrating because they make people reluctant to let an instructor demonstrate with their dog- its really sad as sometimes using an owners dog to help explain a concept to them is very beneficial. When someone hands you their dog- they trust you- and you shouldn't do anything that breaches that trust or the dogs.

spot on cosmolo.

[OSoSwift]

Yep Cos I agree. I have let one friend have the leads of my dogs and that is because I know exactly what she will do. I would never hand my dogs lead over to some random person, or someone I didn't know well.

Rastas I would still write the letter, if you have it signed anonymous I don't think it has to be put infront of a meeting. I think you do need your name attached for it to be in the minutes. Having said that even an anonymous letter addressing what you saw , why you didn't like it and some alternatives will at least get them thinking, I am sure!

If the people that attend the classes have never seen any different then they probably think it is a perfectly normal way to train a dog.

[Cosmolo]

I love nothing more than having a great relationship with my clients dogs, i have dog clients that turn themselves inside out when they see me and love to work with me. I would hate it if a 4-5 month old puppy was frightened of me after a training exercise.

Hope they pay attention to the letter rastus

[rastus_froggy]

I have been thinking about it and the letter will be signed as even if I did it anon they would know it was from me as I was the only one there who had not see this instructor in action before and think it would be pretty obvious who it was from anyway.

I was thinking of maybe putting in it that I would hate to see the club end up having to take on the responsibility of the bills that may result from any injuries to the pup (and possibly other dogs) which have been sustained due to these training methods.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I have been thinking about it and the letter will be signed as even if I did it anon they would know it was from me as I was the only one there who had not see this instructor in action before and think it would be pretty obvious who it was from anyway.

I was thinking of maybe putting in it that I would hate to see the club end up having to take on the responsibility of the bills that may result from any injuries to the pup (and possibly other dogs) which have been sustained due to these training methods.

great idea :laugh:

[PAX]

It's so sad to me that clubs are really progressive with training methods in agility but more often than not are so backward in obedience training.

The training you mentioned is what I too often see at club obedience training, I hope it will change:(( Obedience training should be fun and can be.

[alpha bet]

I have just has a look at the newsletter and this instructor is the president of the club

I suspect you are unlikely to effect any changes under these circumstances.

Probably just see what other clubs in the area are like......

[rastus_froggy]

I have just has a look at the newsletter and this instructor is the president of the club

I suspect you are unlikely to effect any changes under these circumstances.

Probably just see what other clubs in the area are like......

It was only a one off that I was in the obedience side of the club, the agility side is fine. If there were other agility clubs in that area I would leave and go to them just to show my total disapproval of the methods used within the club as a whole but I already travel 56km's each way to this club and the next closest club that offers agility would be at least 150km's each way.

But if I don't even try to do something about it, well I feel I am just as bad as the person actually doing it.

[KOE]

Yeah Cosmolo I do understand what you are referring to when you are talking about the foot on lead and what I saw was definately not that.

I think I will still raise the issue with a letter.

Also too I think the girl with the pup may have looked at me like, what would you know I have been coming here for a while and never seen you here before why should I listen to you.

I guess instructor numbers are limited and if there were any other people interested in instructing in a nice manner they would probably just head over to the other club in town (which does not do agility).

Good idea the letter and maybe offer your services to help out as well. Or maybe go and have another look as looks are decieving and it is only ones perception.

Edited December 18, 2010 by KOE

[Guest bigdogg]

The school of hard knocks is probably more common then the correct way across the board of dog owners everywhere..

Sad fact but true.

[Tiggy]

I witnessed some 'old school type training' at a club, it wasn't in a class though, I was almost in tears driving home, poor puppy was obviously interested in the other dogs, the handler was yanking on his lead every time he looked away, no reward when the dog looked at them , get out of the dark ages people .