Raising Dogs In Apartments

[Braithwaites]

is seems to some people any time a breeder says no it's discrimination

I agree. It's not discrimination for a breeder to say 'no'. It's actually the same for when they say 'yes'. It's a judgement call.

Every time a person goes to their doctor, that doctor has to make a judgement call about diagnosis & treatment. Even human medicine isn't an exact science. That's why it's perfectly acceptable for people to go get 2nd or 3rd opinions from other doctors.

A judgement call is based on someone's knowledge & experience in looking at all the factors involved & giving a preference. Many times that preference will be strong.

If it's good enough for doctors to make judgement calls (& they have to), it's good enough for dog breeders (who also have to).

And it's also good enough for dog buyers to go seek other opinions from other dog breeders. If they can deal with the personality issue of feeling 'rejected' (& all of us can feel that way).

Seems to me (& it's only an opinion) that's the elephant in the room. Feelings of being humiliated because someone said 'No',

Turned-away owners feeling they were being told, 'YOU are not suitable.' Instead of, 'The CIRCUMSTANCES you offer, are not suitable, in my judgement call.'

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Because a judgment call is not a blanket no. A judgment call necessitates that you have all the information at your finger tips and you make an educated decision based on a per case scenario.

Will there be homes unsuitable for various reasons? Sure there will. Should you sell your pup to them? HELL NO.

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

[Rebanne]

My dogs are all active , even if they are out individually

yes I love spying on my youngest, he has a great time all on his own, I really need to video tape him

[raz]

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

Too bad, really. Some breeders wont sell to someone living in an apartment. Some breeders wont sell to someone who rents. Some breeders wont sell to a buyer who indicates they wont pay for vet treatment. And some breeders wont sell to someone who doesnt have adequate fencing. What's the problem?

[Rebanne]

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

who said they were

the original poster in the thread in the breeders forum, made an informed choice, for what was best for their pup, end of story

[Braithwaites]

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

who said they were

the original poster in the thread in the breeders forum, made an informed choice, for what was best for their pup, end of story

Agreed. That particular instance was the probably the right call.

The discussion then turned into some breeders offering blanket no's to anyone with small yards/ apartments.

Hence the debate, or you wouldn't be here

[mita]

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Because a judgment call is not a blanket no. A judgment call necessitates that you have all the information at your finger tips and you make an educated decision based on a per case scenario.

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

Yes but, Braithwaites. (I sound like the girl from Little Britain! ). My point also was that a patient or a puppy-buyer may not agree with the judgement call of a breeder who says 'No'. That doesn't make that call either right or wrong. Just a call the breeder has to make.

And some breeders may have assessed that their preference is strong for 'No' to apartment life, for their particular breed. There may be squirreled away out there, another breeder who has a policy 'Yes, if a lot of criteria is ticked.' So checking with other breeders is perfectly OK.

Medical doctors will also be the same.

One may make a call for a strong preference for one standard form of treatment (to avoid risk). Another may have a preference to look at emerging treatments (with not such a long track record).

Like so much in life, we just have to juggle often conflicting information & choices.

That's why I originally posted I have no criticism for breeders who elect to go either way. A routine 'no', or a 'yes, if criteria ticked.'

Even the Metro Dogs author, who supports dogs in apartments, points out that it takes a lot of thought to make it work for individual dogs, owners & community.

Edited December 19, 2010 by mita

[Braithwaites]

Too bad, really. Some breeders wont sell to someone living in an apartment. Some breeders wont sell to someone who rents. Some breeders wont sell to a buyer who indicates they wont pay for vet treatment. And some breeders wont sell to someone who doesnt have adequate fencing. What's the problem?

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders.

I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners.

I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

[raz]

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders.

Look I totally understand and that's a good question. The people I know who have bought from a BYBer or petshop did so because they thought 'real breeder' (their words, not mine) only supplied showies or other breeders, not pet owners, and certainly not because some discriminating elitist registered breeder said no to them. they never thought to ring a registered breeder to start with.

[Braithwaites]

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Because a judgment call is not a blanket no. A judgment call necessitates that you have all the information at your finger tips and you make an educated decision based on a per case scenario.

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

Yes but, Braithwaites. (I sound like the girl from Little Britain! ). My point also was that a patient or a puppy-buyer may not agree with the judgement call of a breeder who says 'No'. That doesn't make that call either right or wrong. Just a call the breeder has to make.

And some breeders may have assessed that their preference is strong for 'No' to apartment life, for their particular breed. There may be squirreled away out there, another breeder who has a policy 'Yes, if a lot of criteria is ticked.' So checking with other breeders is perfectly OK.

Medical doctors will also be the same.

One may make a call for a strong preference for one form of treatment (to avoid risk). Another may have a preference to look at emerging treatments (with not such a long track record).

Like so much in life, we just have to juggle often conflicting information & choices.

That's why I originally posted I have no criticism for breeders who elect to go either way. A routine 'no', or a 'yes, if criteria ticked.'

Even the Metro Dogs author, who supports dogs in apartments, points out that it takes a lot of thought to make it work for individual dogs, owners & community.

We are in agreement here over the same fundamental argument.

Blanket answers will in some cases - and I agree its the minority - deny really eligible people from owning their dream dog from their dream breeder.

Dog experts all over the world would back my reasoning that apartment dogs, in the right circumstances, will thrive and live a happy life to a grand old age and be denied very little in regards to a dog living on a ranch.

[Braithwaites]

The people I know who have bought from a BYBer or petshop did so because they thought 'real breeder' (their words, not mine) only supplied showies or other breeders, not pet owners, and certainly not because some discriminating elitist registered breeder said no to them. they never thought to ring a registered breeder to start with.

That's a whole other thread right there. I would not know where to begin with educating people/ potential dog owners and creating awareness about breeders.

Like I said earlier ... In some of the dog circles I've found myself in, there are people who are turned off breeders because they have been offended by attitudes in the past. And I know these same people would and do make some of the best dog owners I've ever had conversations with.

It seems a shame they will only ever buy from BYB's (really good, honest well intentioned BYB's, but still) because that's where their best experiences lie.

[Rottsup]

Too bad, really. Some breeders wont sell to someone living in an apartment. Some breeders wont sell to someone who rents. Some breeders wont sell to a buyer who indicates they wont pay for vet treatment. And some breeders wont sell to someone who doesnt have adequate fencing. What's the problem?

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders.

I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners.

I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

Braithwaits, please do yourself a favour... go visit the RSPCA or breed rescue near your home and ask them questions as to where this dog is from and the circumstances of why it is here. Then come back here and tell us you are prepared to go on record with that statement. I have worked with both on a volunteer basis and that's probably why I have such a strong opinion on this matter which perhaps should be titled "suitable forever puppy homes" for whichever breed in question.

[mita]

There's some brief reading here. Refers to cooperative moves by San Francisco SPCA & the City authorities to figure out ways that people living in apartments can own dogs. The point is that large numbers of people now live in apartments (affordability etc) but still would like a pet. And pets need good homes. So how can they best be brought together.

Don't get put-off by the listing of specific breeds as being suitable on the low-, medium-, high- energy scale. Because there's a sentence hidden away that says....each dog is an individual & can be higher or lower energy than the 'average'.

I'd also add that goes for breed characteristics. Like, Shelties are on the list that seems to say they'd tend to be fine for apartment life. But we owned 2 Shelties who were totally different in personality. One was very noisy & always busy. The other was quiet & calm.

All of which is more support for breeders to make their judgement calls as they see it, from their own breed experience & the welfare of their own dogs. And weighing up the circumstances an owner wants to keep a dog in. If a pet owner doesn't agree with a 'No' , they can go check out another

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/apart.html

Edited December 19, 2010 by mita

[OSoSwift]

you shouldn't work a kelpie or a border hard in the first 18 months of their life

That's interesting considering working farm dogs need to prove their worth tand to be able to work all day by 18 months to two years or quite often they are removed from the working dog life. If they were not sound enough to be worked they would have been long gone by 18 months.

Anyway back to topic

I really do not see why people get so het up about whom a breeder sells their dog to. They are their puppies and they make the decision on homes after much research and with their best interests at heart. I have some friends who are lovely people but I would not sell them one of my puppies and it is for a particular reason, they would wonder why it bothered me. At the end of the day it is the breeders right to sell to the home THEY think is the correct one for their baby.

I live on acerage and I do not have a backyard that is fenced with 6 foot colourbond fencing. I have single wire electric fences. I understand that for some breeds that would not be ideal and for some breeders it would not be ideal. I do not leave my dogs outside un-attended and they have very secure dog runs and a soon grassed yard on the front of those with over 6 feet high chain mesh fences. But I do not have a typical set up. I have been told bu a person that they would not sell me a dog because I had a 2 and 4 year old, however another breeder did not find it an issue and happily sold me a puppy who has a great life and I even have a second dog from her. While I was a little miffed at the person not selling to me because I had kids, I just went about finding one that would. It is not different to the apartment verses yard argument.

My puppies will go where I think they have the best chance at a great life and being very well looked after.

[Rottsup]

Apart from a small handful of the posters in this topic like Rebanne, raz & ReadySetGo.... the rest of you are referring to one off situations and your personal experiance of one or two dogs.....

In the big picture... med to lge breed dogs do not belong in appartments or tiny back yards. If you are in that situation yourself and are trying to justify it, don't bother as I am sure the majority on here would know better. If you have felt discriminated because YOU choose to live in an appartment but a breeder wont sell you a GSD (or whatever breed purely due to your accomodation).... well you poor thing I feel sorry for YOUR CHOICE of living BUT the dog dosent get the luxury of choosing where they live therefore it is up to their breeder to insure an appropriate home for their puppies.

The bottom line is; if you choose to live in an appartment - keep gold fish!

wow that helps.....not

just so ya know i have a big house with a big yard..and a small dog.......doesn't mean i don't have an opinion nor does it mean i haven't seen other with dogs in apartments living well

how rude

JB, Not being rude intentionally if that's the way you took it.... just adding my opinion as you do. I don't need to know the type of property you live in nor the type of dog you own.... this is generalising and I too have seen a lovey cream labrador in an appartment 5 stories high just standing there & looking out of the window for hours as I mentioned in the breeders post.

[Rebanne]

But I guarantee there are worthy dog owners out there living in apartments, that are more motivated to love and care for their dogs, and they should not be ignored.

who said they were

the original poster in the thread in the breeders forum, made an informed choice, for what was best for their pup, end of story

Agreed. That particular instance was the probably the right call.

The discussion then turned into some breeders offering blanket no's to anyone with small yards/ apartments.

Hence the debate, or you wouldn't be here

Any one wanting a greyhound puppy from me who who did not have an adequately sized and fenced yard would be a no from me, no matter what other boxes they ticked.

[Rebanne]

I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

lets hope your puppy has a long and safe life. The pound is full, or not full because they are dead, of dogs who "but they have never wandered before".

[Braithwaites]

Too bad, really. Some breeders wont sell to someone living in an apartment. Some breeders wont sell to someone who rents. Some breeders wont sell to a buyer who indicates they wont pay for vet treatment. And some breeders wont sell to someone who doesnt have adequate fencing. What's the problem?

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders.

I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners.

I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

Braithwaits, please do yourself a favour... go visit the RSPCA or breed rescue near your home and ask them questions as to where this dog is from and the circumstances of why it is here. Then come back here and tell us you are prepared to go on record with that statement. I have worked with both on a volunteer basis and that's probably why I have such a strong opinion on this matter which perhaps should be titled "suitable forever puppy homes" for whichever breed in question.

I worked with the animal shelter on the gold coast during my uni degree as the photographer. So I'm not ignorant to the matter. Are you suggesting most dogs in a pound/ shelter have come from people who bought from breeders? I could count the pedigree dogs I saw at the shelter on one hand and not use any fingers. ZERO!

I'm really not sure as to what your point is. Most of the dogs at the shelter were because of aggressiveness toward children, or damaging/ annoying behaviour (due to the dog being bored breathless). I'm not even sure how many dogs were there because of living in apartments, but it definitely wasn't a reoccurring issue that left everyone butting their head against a wall.

[Miranda]

Well I'm one of those elitist breeders with a closed mind who wouldn't sell one of my puppies to anyone living in an apartment, my puppies, my choice, I just don't think a puppy of my breed is suitable for apartment living. Neither would I sell to anyone without a fully fenced yard, once again my puppies, my choice. If either of those decisions sends a prospective puppy buyer dashing off into the consoling arms of a BYB or a puppy farmer then so be it, I don't approve of either, but it's their choice and no concern of mine.

[Rottsup]

Too bad, really. Some breeders wont sell to someone living in an apartment. Some breeders wont sell to someone who rents. Some breeders wont sell to a buyer who indicates they wont pay for vet treatment. And some breeders wont sell to someone who doesnt have adequate fencing. What's the problem?

lol ... There is no problem. Unless of course you see fault with, why we have more BYB's in Australia supplying dogs then we do the people who really need to be. Breeders.

I would wager anyone prepared to pay twice the amount for their dog, go on a waiting list for sometimes 3 years for the dog they want, sometimes need ... I am willing to go on record to say they won't go through all of that to neglect their dogs or be bad owners.

I don't have a fence, nor do I need one like someone in suburbia might. Lucky my breeders are open minded, and didn't give me a blanket answer, huh?

Braithwaits, please do yourself a favour... go visit the RSPCA or breed rescue near your home and ask them questions as to where this dog is from and the circumstances of why it is here. Then come back here and tell us you are prepared to go on record with that statement. I have worked with both on a volunteer basis and that's probably why I have such a strong opinion on this matter which perhaps should be titled "suitable forever puppy homes" for whichever breed in question.

I worked with the animal shelter on the gold coast during my uni degree as the photographer. So I'm not ignorant to the matter. Are you suggesting most dogs in a pound/ shelter have come from people who bought from breeders? I could count the pedigree dogs I saw at the shelter on one hand and not use any fingers. ZERO!

I'm really not sure as to what your point is. Most of the dogs at the shelter were because of aggressiveness toward children, or damaging/ annoying behaviour (due to the dog being bored breathless). I'm not even sure how many dogs were there because of living in apartments, but it definitely wasn't a reoccurring issue that left everyone butting their head against a wall.

I am not aware of how long ago you were in Uni and worked in an animal shelter.... it may have been in the sixties for all I know but I can tell you for sure that (just this year) our Rottweiler Rescue has had many pedigree dogs surrendered where circumstances have changed and the owner can no longer keep him or her for what ever reason (one surrendered this week in fact & breed by a breeder in SA) Thank god for microchipping so the breeders can be tracked and contacted before re-homeing.

I am not saying there are any dogs from appartments in there now but there certainly has been a few this year that I am aware of. Particularly dogs who have regularly barked and neighbouring appartment dwellers complain and then the dog owner has to get rid of it or face there marching orders to leave their home.

I am not here for a full on arguement Braithwaite or to waste my whole day tapping away on the key board to justify my own thoughts on this matter. I have said what I wanted to and this matter is now closed for me. You are entitled to your opinion too so lets agree to disagree on our thoughts.

Have a nice day

[Braithwaites]

you shouldn't work a kelpie or a border hard in the first 18 months of their life

That's interesting considering working farm dogs need to prove their worth tand to be able to work all day by 18 months to two years or quite often they are removed from the working dog life. If they were not sound enough to be worked they would have been long gone by 18 months.

I know. Imagine if breeders stopped selling kelpies or borders to working farmers? Maybe they should if the dog's welfare is taken into account. Growth plates aren't set until 18 months old, running them hard before this is shaving years off their life without the complication of dyslplasia & arthritis.

It is not different to the apartment verses yard argument.

My puppies will go where I think they have the best chance at a great life and being very well looked after.

I will never tire of hearing breeders say this. Sometimes it may not be the most conventional solution, which is the greatest one.