siks3 Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 A close family friend of mine has a GSD that is 11 months old. I went and payed them a visit today and observed there dog. It would snap if some body just bumped his feet while he was laying there or if you simply disturbed him. The dog was not sleeping and was fully aware of it's actions. I watched my friend try to punish him by a scruff shaking and the dog went into defensive mode and snapped again. The dog when he is up and walking around is fine and is great with his daughter. He tried to shrug of the behavior but after a lengthy discussion he is committed in doing something. I want to know how to combat this problem using a positive method of training as the dog obviously doesn't respond well to a heavy hand. I also don't want to give him any advice that would potentially put him in a dangerous situation that could escalate out of his control. So any advice would be great and lets try not to turn this thread into a S*%* fight. I know a behaviorist is in order here but i just want to know peoples different methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 The only method I prescribe for people who are dealing with aggressive dogs is the visit by a qualified professional. The starting point should be a complete physical from a vet to eliminate the possiblity that this is a pain response. There's every chance the owner's combative approach to his dog has predisposed the dog to defensive aggression ie. the dog expects to be physically manhandled and gears up for it. Tell your friend not to listen to half arsed advice by people who don't know what they're talking about (some who will no doubt claim that 'working dogs' need a different ie tougher approach) and to get the right professional in NOW. Hopefully someone can recommend a local one. In the meantime, buy a crate and teach the dog that's where it rests and sleeps. The last thing you need is a child accidentally disturbing this one. If it were my dog and there were kids in the house it would go to kennels until a professional visited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 I agree with poodlefan. Especially with the vet visit first - it could be pain or allergy or sensitivity - best to rule that out before assuming it is behavioural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Behaviourist. Really. Please. Just because a lot of people on the forum could probably deal with this if they saw it in real life, no one here is good enough to diagnose a dog over the internet, or teach your friends what to do over the internet. Get someone in who can assess the situation & teach your friends how to deal with it before it becomes a bigger problem. At this stage, it will probably be relative easy to deal with. Don't let it escalate. For what it's worth, if my dog started doing this, I'd say we had a bigger problem in our relationship than a simple scruff shake could fix. Until someone can see the dog, I'd follow Poodlefan's suggestions about avoiding the issue by teaching him to sleep in the crate. And I'd be sticking him on NILIF and TOT as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Tell your friend not to listen to half arsed advice by people who don't know what they're talking about (some who will no doubt claim that 'working dogs' need a different ie tougher approach) and to get the right professional in NOW. That is almost exactly what I said to my friend whose dog has been occasionally guarding her newborn baby from her. I also think the crate and a vet check is a good place to start. Hypothetically, I'd be inclined to look at the dog's sense of safety. It seems like over-sensitivity, which would maybe suggest that the dog either can't accurately predict what's going to happen next or it predicts what will happen next is going to be bad. There could be a bunch of reasons why either might be occurring, and to me many of those reasons would have slightly different treatments. For example, say the dog has a negative bias and is expecting bad things to happen. Is that because bad things do happen, or is it because the dog is distressed for an entirely different reason and this is affecting how they see other situations as well? Without knowing the reason, how would we treat it? It might be a good idea to just assume that the dog has learnt to behave this way and treat the behaviour, but a better idea to me would be to attempt to work out just what is going on right at the heart of the matter. It could be anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 I agree with what the others have said. A veterinary behaviourist may also be an option. I know of a good one in Melbourne but that doesn't help your friend in SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Tell your friend not to listen to half arsed advice by people who don't know what they're talking about (some who will no doubt claim that 'working dogs' need a different ie tougher approach) and to get the right professional in NOW. That is almost exactly what I said to my friend whose dog has been occasionally guarding her newborn baby from her. Anyone who commences their advice with "on Cesar Milan's show he.... " should automatically be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siks3 Posted December 17, 2010 Author Share Posted December 17, 2010 I think for this particular fellow a behaviorist is in order due to the owners handling ability. I think the problem has arisen because as a pup the dog was allowed inside most of the time and instead of calling the dog and letting it outside it has been dragged by the collar and it is anticipating this behavior. It would be a relatively easy thing to fix I am going to check things out in finer detail over the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) I think for this particular fellow a behaviorist is in order due to the owners handling ability.I think the problem has arisen because as a pup the dog was allowed inside most of the time and instead of calling the dog and letting it outside it has been dragged by the collar and it is anticipating this behavior. It would be a relatively easy thing to fix I am going to check things out in finer detail over the weekend. That's a pretty big call. The first thing that a good behaviourist will tell you is triggering the dog's aggression reinforces the dog's behaviour and can lower the trigger point. It would be safe to suggest that these people stop grabbing the dog by the collar for any reason. Leave it alone and help this person find the professional they need. I seem to call quite a few of the SA Dolers recommend the same guy. Edited December 17, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siks3 Posted December 17, 2010 Author Share Posted December 17, 2010 I think for this particular fellow a behaviorist is in order due to the owners handling ability.I think the problem has arisen because as a pup the dog was allowed inside most of the time and instead of calling the dog and letting it outside it has been dragged by the collar and it is anticipating this behavior. It would be a relatively easy thing to fix I am going to check things out in finer detail over the weekend. That's a pretty big call. I think with a lot of praise and reward when being touched while laying down would be beneficial. Then to make going out side a positive experience for the dog would work also. Instead of the negative I think the experience could be turned into a positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 (edited) I think for this particular fellow a behaviorist is in order due to the owners handling ability.I think the problem has arisen because as a pup the dog was allowed inside most of the time and instead of calling the dog and letting it outside it has been dragged by the collar and it is anticipating this behavior. It would be a relatively easy thing to fix I am going to check things out in finer detail over the weekend. That's a pretty big call. I think with a lot of praise and reward when being touched while laying down would be beneficial.Then to make going out side a positive experience for the dog would work also. Instead of the negative I think the experience could be turned into a positive. Maybe.. or maybe it will trigger further and bigger attempts to be left alone. Don't f*ck about with this - best intentions may see the dog escalate to the point of biting and there's no way back from there. This isn't your dog, you're not a professional and you really don't know what you're dealing with. Don't make a bad situation worse. If this dog bites, your plan could be signing his death sentence. You wrote: It would snap if some body just bumped his feet while he was laying there or if you simply disturbed him. Now you want to encourage people to touch the dog? If the dog is warning people off, HEED THE WARNINGS. To do otherwise is an invitation to the dog to escalate. I'll be interested to see what a vet says about this dog's hips. If it's only triggered when its lying down, that could be telling. Edited December 17, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Does he have the internet? Ask him to join himself so he can ask dog trainers on here rather than go through someone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 If you do make a misstep and the dog escalates, you could be in big trouble very quickly. Do not risk teaching this dog to bite for real by leaving him no other option! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Contact Mark Singer ASAP http://caninetraining.com.au/ hes the best for this dog I can tell you that. Advice over the internet is a no go when a dog is snapping at its owners it needs a proper assessment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Contact Mark Singer ASAPhttp://caninetraining.com.au/ hes the best for this dog I can tell you that. Advice over the internet is a no go when a dog is snapping at its owners it needs a proper assessment Thanks - that's who I was trying to think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Contact Mark Singer ASAPhttp://caninetraining.com.au/ hes the best for this dog I can tell you that. Advice over the internet is a no go when a dog is snapping at its owners it needs a proper assessment I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abed Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 A close family friend of mine has a GSD that is 11 months old.I went and payed them a visit today and observed there dog. It would snap if some body just bumped his feet while he was laying there or if you simply disturbed him. The dog was not sleeping and was fully aware of it's actions. I watched my friend try to punish him by a scruff shaking and the dog went into defensive mode and snapped again. The dog when he is up and walking around is fine and is great with his daughter. He tried to shrug of the behavior but after a lengthy discussion he is committed in doing something. I want to know how to combat this problem using a positive method of training as the dog obviously doesn't respond well to a heavy hand. I also don't want to give him any advice that would potentially put him in a dangerous situation that could escalate out of his control. So any advice would be great and lets try not to turn this thread into a S*%* fight. I know a behaviorist is in order here but i just want to know peoples different methods. Sounds more like a fear response...........is the dog from a registered breeding or a BYB out of interest??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 It would be a relatively easy thing to fix Ok... so why not get a professional in to do just this ? A dog which is snapping should NOT be worked on by anyone but a professional. ... there is just too much chance of something going very wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4paws Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Contact Mark Singer ASAPhttp://caninetraining.com.au/ hes the best for this dog I can tell you that. Advice over the internet is a no go when a dog is snapping at its owners it needs a proper assessment Thanks - that's who I was trying to think of. Mark Singer is a dog trainer and may be of great assistance, but he is not a qualified behaviourist. The most prominent "qualified" behaviourist in SA is Dr Susan Hazel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 Sounds more like a fear response...........is the dog from a registered breeding or a BYB out of interest??? Just out of interest, what difference would it make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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