Whelping At Shows

[Sandra777]

The breeders from the 70's and 80's were prepared to line breed say 3:3. and it was completely frowned upon to consider things closer. These older breeders produced type and substance as well as good temperaments.

There have been many times on DOL when we have seen how the 'showie' community are extremely judgemental about those who breed but do not show.......

Draw your own conclusions........

The breeders I knew from the 70's & 80's (yes I was showing and breeding then) were prepared to go a lot closer than that. One based their kennel on a bitch bred from a 3/4 brother-sister mating, another based their kennel on a brother and sister from a litter bred son-mother and another had a variety of dogs all descended from a single bitch and her brother's son.

They did a pretty good job of type substance and temperament and definitely were NOT frowned upon. In fact prior to any DNA testing being possible, very close matings were routinely recommended in some breeds to see if a promising stud dog carried a certain recessive gene that was a problem in the breed.

Most people I knew bred their bitches on their second and third heats, left them one heat then bred them again. Most people I knew allowed their young prospective stud dog his first mating at 7-9 months.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Sandra777

[Miranda]

The breeders I knew from the 70's & 80's (yes I was showing and breeding then) were prepared to go a lot closer than that. One based their kennel on a bitch bred from a 3/4 brother-sister mating, another based their kennel on a brother and sister from a litter bred son-mother and another had a variety of dogs all descended from a single bitch and her brother's son.

They did a pretty good job of type substance and temperament and definitely were NOT frowned upon. In fact prior to any DNA testing being possible, very close matings were routinely recommended in some breeds to see if a promising stud dog carried a certain recessive gene that was a problem in the breed.

Most people I knew bred their bitches on their second and third heats, left them one heat then bred them again. Most people I knew allowed their young prospective stud dog his first mating at 7-9 months.

I couldn't agree more Sandra, I was also around in the 70's and 80's.

My foundation bitch was from a father/daughter mating, she was mated to an import and produced a BIS/BISS winner and I then put her daughter to her nephew and produced two BIS/BISS winners. One of her sons had his first mating at ten months of age.

As for taking pregnant bitches to shows, I've done it occasionally and I know many other breeders who've done it, as long as the bitch isn't heavily in whelp and is happy to show I don't have a problem with it.

[jr_inoz]

No other dogs other than those entered should be on the grounds anyway, so rule broken there...

This is a rule? In which state? Here, there are always dogs around that aren't entered. Especially baby puppies getting socialised before their first show...

[Chocolate]

I don't think there can ever be any justification for having a bitch whelp at a show. That is very sad indeed.

[yarracully]

No other dogs other than those entered should be on the grounds anyway, so rule broken there...

What rule is this? the only shows I know of which limit dogs allowed is Royal shows. At a royal the only dogs allowed are those entered. But I have not heard of any other shows being limited in this regard.

[Jsk]

I don't think there can ever be any justification for having a bitch whelp at a show. That is very sad indeed.

Couldnt agree more chocolate!

[Miss B]

No other dogs other than those entered should be on the grounds anyway, so rule broken there...

What rule is this? the only shows I know of which limit dogs allowed is Royal shows. At a royal the only dogs allowed are those entered. But I have not heard of any other shows being limited in this regard.

Not sure about other states but this is from DogsQLD:

218. Providing application is made to the Society or Club conducting the exhibition, and the Show Manager is

notified, registered dogs not entered in the Show may be allowed in the precincts of the exhibition with the

permission of the Show Manager. Any such dogs will be required to conform to the Rules and Regulations of the

CCC(Q) as applicable to dogs entered in the exhibition. Nothing in this Rule will allow such dogs to be offered or

advertised for sale anywhere on the grounds where the exhibition is being held. This rule also applies to financial

members of any interstate body.

[Nevafollo]

I have seen a few litters born in the parking lot of shows both in Canada and the States...no, it's not really allowed either, and yes, it's frowned upon....however...why would it jeopardise or create Council havoc if done by a competant person? We see PLENTY of morons attempting to whelp bitches in their homes, only to have catastrophic problems due to inexperience.

I'm not saying I"m in favour of a bunch of bitches whelping at shows, but I"m also not going to say that the moment I mate a bitch, she and myself remain home with her wrapped in bubble wrap. As I mentioned, I got almost got caught once....24 hours.....and recently we had a litter where the bitch was a week to go, gave no signs of any impending labour/delivery and whelped her first pup on the back porch with the gang watching. It was only the squeek of the pup that gave indication (as it was dark) At least at a show, perhaps there would be less chance to go hide under a porch or in some far corner of the yard if an early whelping happened.

I would say, that no fingers should be pointed too harshly in the OP's situation as no one here other than perhaps them, knows the circumstances of the whelping.

With a week to go I would have NOT gone to any shows, but that is just me, when I mate a bitch I would expect NOT to go !!!!

No other dogs other than those entered should be on the grounds anyway, so rule broken there...

I know these things happen and I also know of people having 2 /3 weeks old litters in the trailers, before missing a show...

Not good practice I think.....

JMO

I wouldn't show a bitch once the pregnancy was confirmed (eg 4 weeks) and I totally respect the actions of those who don't show after mating. As far as I'm concerned it's irresponsible to take a bitch out of her home environment (except to the vet) in the last few weeks of pregnancy. If you can't get someone else to show your dogs that week then you just don't show. It's not like you don't have AT LEAST 9 weeks to plan and not enter shows. Sometimes I think people's determination to show takes over their common sense and their pet's welfare.

I can't imagine having a baby at a friggin dog show and I wouldn't expect a bitch to either. They deserve peace and quiet away from the noise and attention. I can't imagine a place further away from noise and attention than a dog show.

Thanx for the replies all, I agree with what alot have said and I agree with the two I have posted above the most.

Personally if showing is that important to you and you just HAVE to be at said show you should either leave the bitch in capable hands (which i wouldnt do anyway) or have not bred her when you did. I LOVE showing but if I had to miss a show it wouldnt kill me!

When I saw these people rubbing a puppy up I was mortified but being still newish to all this we had no idea what the rules were and who to tell, we did mention it to one of the committee members but not sure what came of that!

[angelsun]

So, some of you would also think that once a woman is pregnant she should not leave the grounds of her home other than for check ups.

Come on now, plenty of pups have been born under the house in the dirt and mother and pups have done well.

Plenty of babies also born in vehicles on the way to hospital.

Whats wrong with being born a show ground. Plenty of experienced people to lend a hand and who's dogs aren't vaccinated.

I agree with you with this analogy...as well as those that commented about the bitches whelping under the porch and all went well. With the number of capable hands at a show, what better place to get help....those of us in the game long enough have probably had some vets that don't know what our peers at the shows know, when it comes to whelping a bitch!

As for dogs at shown who are not entered....can someone find the definition of "precincts" regarding the show? This must mean the spectators walking their mixed breed fluffies must be asked in future to leave dog shows.

CKC boundaries for official shows were 10 feet outside the building (if held indoors) and 30 feet around the rings. We had someone once try to stop people taking extra dogs/pups etc to the shows (outside) only to be told that since the show was on a public area, they couldn't enforce anything.

[Ceilidh]

In our world once a bitch is mated she stays home. I believe there is absolutely NO reason to have a bitch who is ready to whelp at a show. She deserves to have a comfortable, familiar, stress free place to have her babies! If showing is THAT important to you then DON'T breed, you don't deserve to have that responsibility. JMHO!

[whiskedaway]

No other dogs other than those entered should be on the grounds anyway, so rule broken there...

What rule is this? the only shows I know of which limit dogs allowed is Royal shows. At a royal the only dogs allowed are those entered. But I have not heard of any other shows being limited in this regard.

I was thinking the exact same thing. We will bring our Sibe along when we're showing so she's not left alone at home all day. There are stacks of people that bring other dogs along to shows in SA, and I have as a spectator.

[oakway]

The breeders I knew from the 70's & 80's (yes I was showing and breeding then) were prepared to go a lot closer than that. One based their kennel on a bitch bred from a 3/4 brother-sister mating, another based their kennel on a brother and sister from a litter bred son-mother and another had a variety of dogs all descended from a single bitch and her brother's son.

They did a pretty good job of type substance and temperament and definitely were NOT frowned upon. In fact prior to any DNA testing being possible, very close matings were routinely recommended in some breeds to see if a promising stud dog carried a certain recessive gene that was a problem in the breed.

Most people I knew bred their bitches on their second and third heats, left them one heat then bred them again. Most people I knew allowed their young prospective stud dog his first mating at 7-9 months.

I couldn't agree more Sandra, I was also around in the 70's and 80's.

My foundation bitch was from a father/daughter mating, she was mated to an import and produced a BIS/BISS winner and I then put her daughter to her nephew and produced two BIS/BISS winners. One of her sons had his first mating at ten months of age.

As for taking pregnant bitches to shows, I've done it occasionally and I know many other breeders who've done it, as long as the bitch isn't heavily in whelp and is happy to show I don't have a problem with it.

Ladies move over because I am coming in to join you.

I think I can safely say that none of us condone deliberately taking a bitch in first stage labor to a show, what we are saying is Sh!t happens when you least expect it.

How many women have gone into labor un expectantly, when at a meeting, conference or a party, or low and behold at a dog show, again sh!t happens.

[oakway]

So, some of you would also think that once a woman is pregnant she should not leave the grounds of her home other than for check ups.

Come on now, plenty of pups have been born under the house in the dirt and mother and pups have done well.

Plenty of babies also born in vehicles on the way to hospital.

Whats wrong with being born a show ground. Plenty of experienced people to lend a hand and who's dogs aren't vaccinated.

I agree with you with this analogy...as well as those that commented about the bitches whelping under the porch and all went well. With the number of capable hands at a show, what better place to get help....those of us in the game long enough have probably had some vets that don't know what our peers at the shows know, when it comes to whelping a bitch!

As for dogs at shown who are not entered....can someone find the definition of "precincts" regarding the show? This must mean the spectators walking their mixed breed fluffies must be asked in future to leave dog shows.

CKC boundaries for official shows were 10 feet outside the building (if held indoors) and 30 feet around the rings. We had someone once try to stop people taking extra dogs/pups etc to the shows (outside) only to be told that since the show was on a public area, they couldn't enforce anything.

It would be the same here if the show is held at a Public place.

[fifi]

I think I can safely say that none of us condone deliberately taking a bitch in first stage labor to a show, what we are saying is Sh!t happens when you least expect it.

How many women have gone into labor un expectantly, when at a meeting, conference or a party, or low and behold at a dog show, again sh!t happens.

Sorry Oakway, The human analogy doen't compare,

We know EXACTLEY when bitches are due, we know Exactley when they were mated, so if you don't take a bitch out who is in whelp - there can't be an accident if they go early.

fifi

[oakway]

I think I can safely say that none of us condone deliberately taking a bitch in first stage labor to a show, what we are saying is Sh!t happens when you least expect it.

How many women have gone into labor un expectantly, when at a meeting, conference or a party, or low and behold at a dog show, again sh!t happens.

Sorry Oakway, The human analogy doen't compare,

We know EXACTLEY when bitches are due, we know Exactley when they were mated, so if you don't take a bitch out who is in whelp - there can't be an accident if they go early.

fifi

Come off it.......ask in the breeders forum how many bitches have gone into labor un expectantly.

I have had bitches whelp a week early.

[fifi]

I think I can safely say that none of us condone deliberately taking a bitch in first stage labor to a show, what we are saying is Sh!t happens when you least expect it.

How many women have gone into labor un expectantly, when at a meeting, conference or a party, or low and behold at a dog show, again sh!t happens.

Sorry Oakway, The human analogy doen't compare,

We know EXACTLEY when bitches are due, we know Exactley when they were mated, so if you don't take a bitch out who is in whelp - there can't be an accident if they go early.

fifi

Come off it.......ask in the breeders forum how many bitches have gone into labor un expectantly.

I have had bitches whelp a week early.

read my bolded bit above......if they are'nt away from home, then an early whelping is not a problem. Of course they can and do go early - just doesn't need to be at a show.

[Lowenhart]

Sorry Oakway, The human analogy doen't compare,

We know EXACTLEY when bitches are due, we know Exactley when they were mated, so if you don't take a bitch out who is in whelp - there can't be an accident if they go early.

fifi

Well that didn't help when I went out for lunch with a friend and came home to a bitch who had gone into whelp 6 days early from her first mating. Accidents happen all the time. My bitch was at home, showed no signs of whelping before I left.

I don't take heavily pregnant bitches anywhere, and I don't agree in purposely whelping bitches at show weekends. However we don't have a 100% reliable exact date that they will whelp.

I do however show up to 4 weeks along.

[fifi]

Lowenhart, I've already said a few times, yes, bitches go early, that's not in dispute at all !!!! :-)

Just no excuse for it to be at a show.

fifi

edited to clarify.

Edited December 16, 2010 by fifi

[Aziah]

Are all these very early (6-7 days early) bitches progesterone tested at the time of mating...probably not.

Mine don't leave home once they've been mated, personal preference...

[Stolzseinrotts]

In our world once a bitch is mated she stays home. I believe there is absolutely NO reason to have a bitch who is ready to whelp at a show. She deserves to have a comfortable, familiar, stress free place to have her babies! If showing is THAT important to you then DON'T breed, you don't deserve to have that responsibility. JMHO!

I agree with this statement!