"shakes Head In Despair"

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

if we think about smoking as an example.... i am old enough to remember smoking at my office desk.

the non-smokers hated it and nobody cared.

now if i was to light up (i am a non-smoker now) outside not even in a room most people look at me with a frown.

the world can change...so what changed smokers and smoking, i believe it was education

Yes, but in this analogy the manufacturers were not the target of education, it was the smokers who were targetted.

Running around (figuratively) belting people up for cross breeding is only going to give you a headache because it is not in their interests to hear what you are saying.

It is the end user (dog owner) who needs to come to their own conclusion and start to change their behaviour. Cigarette companies are still eeking out a (massive, decreasingly profitable) living and seeking to justify their means and ends - people simply breeding mary lou with peter the pound dog are never going to get it because they are making money from it.

Changing the world one pet owner at a time is what it comes back to and insulting people's intelligence and abusing people who don't see the world the way we do is going to do more harm than good. The only way to effect wholesale change is to find someone with the time, means and energy to lobby governments and start the wheels of change moving. The problem with that approach is whether it is a big enough issue within society for governments to care. Last I checked the streets were not being over run by out of control cross breeds so it is unlikely to get on the radar any time soon.

Sorry, just in a realistic mood this morning - unless someone with far more cash and time than I have decides to champion the cause then everything else is just a myopic dream.

you missed the point of my post

[Mollie10]

Change takes time and often there needs to be a catalyst.

For me, it was a little crossbreed byb puppy born in 1994 who was my whole world.

[Rusky]

Change takes time and often there needs to be a catalyst.

For me, it was a little crossbreed byb puppy born in 1994 who was my whole world.

That is called a heart dog breed unimportant ...

[Agility Dogs]

you missed the point of my post

Sorry, what was the point? I agree with you that it is education that will solve the problem, but it is not education of the BYB or whoever else - like the OP is suggesting.

Like you said it is education of the 'smokers' that is necessary. I was combining what you said with the overall thread.

Sorry if I've offended.

[Missymoo]

I wouldhave replyed:

"Market/demand + dollars = BYB!"

I cracked it today in PP and told the girl (loudly infront of a lot of Xmas shoppers) that these two glass boxes of pups were far too young to even leave mumma let alone locked up...soo so many babies there at this time...

[hortfurball]

While I agree this is sad, it's a battle we will never win Some people just won't get it. For every person that becomes educated and decides to do things the right way (or stop doing things the wrong way), there are another dozen that refuse to become educated, no matter how hard we try.

Rescue material in 6 months

And I'm sorry but I'm so tired of this argument. Just because a puppy buyer doesn't know any better about the right and wrong place to buy their pets (you gotta start somewhere!), doesn't mean their crossbred dog they bought with all the love in the world is going to end up in the pound.

Forgive my jaundice but it has been earned. While not every cross bred dog ends up in the pound, neither are all of them bought "with all the love in the world"

For a lot of these dogs are reprehensible crosses and by that I mean dogs with conflicting instincts. These pups are then bought by people with very little dog savvy, just good intentions. A recipe for disaster for all concerned.

In 1994, I was a person with little dog savvy, just good intentions. I read a book on dog breeds and narrowed it down to a few favourites, looked in the newspaper to see what was around (cos that's where you looked if you wanted a puppy), looked at one litter of cross bred puppies of the breeds I was interested in and then went to a pet shop that had advertised crossbred pups that were on my list, and walked out with Kuga, a supposed mastiff x st bernard who has turned out to be (best guess) great dane x labrador, possibly with something else in the mix too but who knows. Many years later he managed to win a third place ribbon in obedience with our local dog club. He's not perfect, has never had any clue about dog to dog etiquette, with sometimes scary results. The last five years or so has involved approximately $8000 in heart pills, not one penny of which I have begrudged to keep my beloved old man with me while his tail is still wagging. Today is his 16th birthday.

Being a bit of a slow learner, in 2001 I decided to get a female to breed him with 'because everybody who met him fell in love with him' and I 'knew that I'd find homes for all of the pups'. I was such a slow learner that I got my second dog from a pet shop as well, supposedly a mastiff x rottweiler who turned out to be more of a kelpie x dobe x ? (possibly staffy?) and when it was clear that no way was she going to get anywhere near his size, I had her speyed for her own safety, and there endeth the dream of Kuga babies. So all of a sudden I had a young hyperactive destructive bitch with working breeds in her that was poles apart from my placid old man. She has proved to be a handful, I love her dearly (she does have her good points, she's belly laughingly funny sometimes and very affectionate) but nobody would willingly take her on - she's been described by a vet as the doggie equivalent of an ADHD child. She has had obedience training but no ribbon to show for it.

Have I learned my lesson? Yes and no. I would never buy a puppy from a pet shop again on principle, and I would no longer ever consider breeding. I would like a purebred great dane or two one day but I would rescue a crossbreed if I fell for it because apparently I'm one of those owners who can adapt to suit the dog, within reason. I have one big, dumb, friendly lovable doofus, and one hyperactive, noisy lovable nutcase, and they both live in harmony with each other and with the cats.

Sometimes 'people with very little dog savvy, just good intentions', while being a bit slow, can come to the party and respect that the commitment they've made is for life. Of course, a true love of dogs and the ability to fall in love with an individual dog is probably what made all the difference - you don't dump family members at the pound.

[SpotTheDog]

The problem isn't crossbreeds per se. As long as dog's and bitches are left with their reproductive systems intact past the age where they can breed, we'll have 'oops' litters, and those 'oops' pups need homes. Those 'oops' dogs can be excellent dogs - historically most of us have probably owned some sort of 'oops' dog at some point in our lives - a mongrel who had as many good points as many pure breeds.

The problem is muppets who intentionally cross two separate breeds, repeatedly, to generate puppies that they then sell, claiming hybrid vigour, a blended temperament, and some unfounded superiority over pure bred dogs, with no care or respect for the health of the dogs in their care, or the future of those puppies, or the law, or anything other than money.

THAT is what is filling the pounds to overflowing - and I know plenty of people who will buy a BYB mongrel and have been sucked in by the claims. Plus the more BYB mongrels that fill homes for 10-15 years, the more oops mutts who die on death row through no fault of their own. If they outlaw back yard breeding, perhaps by outlawing the sale of puppies and the advertising of puppies for sale by anyone who isn't a licensed breeder (or something similar?), then maybe our pounds and shelters will empty out some and we can all go back to having the occasional fantastic oops mutt alongside any pure bred dog we want from a responsible, licensed breeder.

I think the bit I really can't understand is how someone pays big bucks for a mongrel. These really are the ultimate in home accessories, not dogs - you're paying for a cute puppy with no regard for anything else at all. Like buying couch cushions - and probably as disposable when you're tired of them.

When I was getting my dog, my boss recommended I go for a maltese-poodle cross because she had one and knew a lady who bred them. I asked her why I'd pay a woman who deliberately added to the problem of unwanted dogs. She poo-pooed my response, so I made her sit down beside me and I called up Mildura Pound's website (because it was the only pound site I knew) and I scrolled through the pictures with her - puppies galore in there at the time, three or four litters, and a large number of highly miserable looking dogs including a couple who were tethered and were really cowering before the camera.

My boss isn't a bad person by any means - she's just clueless, but she's enough of an animal lover that the pictures spoke for themselves and she was very silent indeed by the time I'd stopped scrolling.

[alpha bet]

I get to work with many average family people in our school who bring their dogs and pups for training. I survey each about their animal history and their expectations. Many have been purchased from people that would be termed as byb (unregistered, no association, no microchipping etc) or from pet shops and of course a good percentage from registered breeders.

I don't really care where they got this pup from - they have come for help and want to learn more - my job is to make them enjoy the dog that they have and to get the most out of the experience. It is important not to alienate these people, if they feel that they are being judged they will never get the chance to learn more.

However I do get the chance to influence and educate them about where the dogs come from and about health and breeding benefits of going thru the registered system. After running the school for 15 years many families may have had their older dog pass away and have come back with their next pup. Some also enjoy the experience they decided on a second dog. Im happy to say they ALWAYS seem to go for either a rescue dog or a purebred which really makes me feel that my message is getting thru. Ive even been lucky enough in the last few years to have some of the families decide on even waiting for a pup from one of my litters - so I get to work with my own breeding as well.

How can we all educate the public.

You might think that what you do individually doesnt really matter. However consider this - if I have say 100-200 new dogs every year and each of these can then go home and influence some of their friends or work collegues (easily 5 each) about the benefits of training and researching where they are going to get their next dog..... and those people go home and start to influence even just 2 friends/relatives then potentially my work might help to influence even 1,000 families (average 3 people in a family) per year....... PROVIDED I DON'T ALIENATE ANYONE.

Perhaps if we all consider this PAY IT FORWARD attitude - we can be damm confident we can start to make a change.

Edited December 16, 2010 by alpha bet

[Adza]

Hmmm what that lady doesn't understand is she wouldn't have a clue whether her pups make it to the pound or not. Obviously doesn't give a rats about dogs all she wrote about was $$$

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

you missed the point of my post

Sorry, what was the point? I agree with you that it is education that will solve the problem, but it is not education of the BYB or whoever else - like the OP is suggesting.

Like you said it is education of the 'smokers' that is necessary. I was combining what you said with the overall thread.

Sorry if I've offended.

oh no offence taken at all AG

i think we need to do 3 things just like the smoking

educate the public on the issues

make the producers (BYB's) of the "product" pay (as in the USA where tobacco companies were sued by class action)

legislate and police

so in my world BYB's would have to do everything registered breeders are responsible for and this would be policed.

not so attractive for them to breed.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[DerRottweiler]

I went to the Lost Dogs Home in Melbourne the other day (a very very depressing experience).

All the dogs I saw were a cross of some sort, I did not see any well-bred pure dogs (I'm sure some do end up there, but if my anecdotal evidence is worth anything, they'd be a small minority).

Educating the public is the key.

[mumof3]

Yes, bybers breeding for $ are part of the problem.

But I also think today's mentality of "I want it, and I want it now" is a part of the problem. Many of the dogs in shelters are there not only because of how they were bred, and how their early husbandry was carried out, but also because the families who took them home did so on a whim. When buying my first purebred dog this year, I felt I was jumping through hoops for the breeders in order to buy a puppy. And at the time I didn't like the feeling and felt I was at times being spoken down to. Now I understand and appreciate what the breeders were doing, not only protecting their puppies and ensuring they had a good future, and a forever home, but also making sure I got what I needed, and had realistic expectations of our new family member. This process was somewhat uncomforatble and unfamiliar to me, but it was necessary and has resulted in a wonderful pup for us, and a forever home for that puppy. Some people are not prepared to go through this process, and will not tolerate it when they could cough up for a fashionable little cross breed, like what everyone else has and walk away with their puppy, blissfully unaware of the possible future for their family and their new dog. What is the answer to this problem? I don't know. Probably illegalise all breeding other than that through registered breeders - though perhaps the scope of registered breeders would also need to change somewhat, too, and the establishment of breeders who are dedicated to producing healthy, registered home raised puppies particularly for the pet market should be welcomed if other sources of puppies are to be shut down. I guess my point is, that the strength in the pure bred world is not necessarily superior genetics (though this of course is important), but the care that goes into raising (or at least in my experience) and homing puppies and educating and supporting owners - this care is why there are so few purebred puppies in shelters.

Someone once told me that babies were so hard to get for a reason (9 months pregnancy, painful labour possibly years trying to conceive) - so that we valued them once we got them. Puppy farm puppies are too easily got to be truly valued as any living animal should be.

[Tay.]

Argh, things like this make me so angry!

Just like the other day on facebook, a friend's status came up in my newsfeed.

"Omg, my dog is having puppys, so f'ing cute"

Wow, you know so much about breeding you can't even spell what the offspring are called. When I asked what breed they were and what she was going to do with them.

"Staffy cross I don't know. And not sure what we're gonna do with them"

[Tarmons]

I must admit when I read the ad about the two bread dogs in our local paper, I was tempted to ask if they were a combination of multi-grain and whole meal breads.

You will never convince these people because all they see are $$$ signs not puppies.

There is a market out there and in our area sadly even some registered breeders sell their puppies without papers and some do the designer dog market with their variety of crosses with poodles or maltese terriers or Shih Tzus

A friend of mine was wanting a puppy of a particular breed. I drummed into her the importance of buying from registered breeders only and gave her a list of questions to ask the breeder about health checks etc. Told her about Puppy packs and the support that she could expect from registered breeders as opposed to buying from a BYB. Suggested that she look on DOL to check and see where there were puppies for sale which she did and found a breeder who lived in the same area. There were 4 breeders. She contacted all four but only one still had puppies for sale.

She bought a puppy.... never saw where it was raised as the breeder delivered it to her. When she asked about the Rego papers she was told that it would not come with papers because she didn't want to show it so there was no need for papers. There was no puppy pack...no diet sheet.... no support but she did get the Vaccination Certificate.

This was a first time puppy owner who knew nothing at all about raising a puppy.... She was given a small plastic bag with some kibble in it and told that she could get puppy food from the local supermarket.

What a let down from a so -called registered breeder who IMO really is a BYB pretending to be an ANKC registered breeder.

Please don't try and tell me that it is okay for breeders to sell puppies without papers to pet owners because it saves or reduces the cost of registering a litter with the CCCQ.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Tarmons

[Staranais]

She bought a puppy.... never saw where it was raised as the breeder delivered it to her. When she asked about the Rego papers she was told that it would not come with papers because she didn't want to show it so there was no need for papers. There was no puppy pack...no diet sheet.... no support but she did get the Vaccination Certificate.

This was a first time puppy owner who knew nothing at all about raising a puppy.... She was given a small plastic bag with some kibble in it and told that she could get puppy food from the local supermarket.

What a let down from a so -called registered breeder who IMO really is a BYB pretending to be an ANKC registered breeder.

That's really disappointing.

[OSoSwift]

Please don't try and tell me that it is okay for breeders to sell puppies without papers to pet owners because it saves or reduces the cost of registering a litter with the CCCQ.

I don't think anyone would say that and certainly not agree with it.

It is very disappointing when a so called breeder does that. They are rego'd back yard breeders with very few ethics.

[yap]

Hmmm what that lady doesn't understand is she wouldn't have a clue whether her pups make it to the pound or not. Obviously doesn't give a rats about dogs all she wrote about was $$$

I fully agree

[Agility Dogs]

you missed the point of my post

Sorry, what was the point? I agree with you that it is education that will solve the problem, but it is not education of the BYB or whoever else - like the OP is suggesting.

Like you said it is education of the 'smokers' that is necessary. I was combining what you said with the overall thread.

Sorry if I've offended.

oh no offence taken at all AG

i think we need to do 3 things just like the smoking

educate the public on the issues

make the producers (BYB's) of the "product" pay (as in the USA where tobacco companies were sued by class action)

legislate and police

so in my world BYB's would have to do everything registered breeders are responsible for and this would be policed.

not so attractive for them to breed.

we are on the same page!

[Skruffy n Flea]

While I agree this is sad, it's a battle we will never win Some people just won't get it. For every person that becomes educated and decides to do things the right way (or stop doing things the wrong way), there are another dozen that refuse to become educated, no matter how hard we try.

Rescue material in 6 months

And I'm sorry but I'm so tired of this argument. Just because a puppy buyer doesn't know any better about the right and wrong place to buy their pets (you gotta start somewhere!), doesn't mean their crossbred dog they bought with all the love in the world is going to end up in the pound.

Forgive my jaundice but it has been earned. While not every cross bred dog ends up in the pound, neither are all of them bought "with all the love in the world"

For a lot of these dogs are reprehensible crosses and by that I mean dogs with conflicting instincts. These pups are then bought by people with very little dog savvy, just good intentions. A recipe for disaster for all concerned.

Very true, there can be very bad crosses that end up in the wrong hands and can be a recipe for disaster, that I agree with. But in this particular case, these are Maltese x Shih Tzu puppies, hardly a reason for them to end up in the pound just because someone back yard bred them, which was the basis of your original post. I far from advocate BYB, but I just see this blanket statement thrown about all the time about back yard bred dogs automatically going to end up in the pound regardless of their breed (crossbred or otherwise), and it just gets a little tiring to read

i just wanna say here that quite a few of these swf crossbreeds do end up in the pound a matted mess because at the point of purchase there wasn't any advice or education provided about the upkeep and welfare of the dog's coat --- from what i understand, a lot of these poor ill-bred dogs are cast aside because they are too much work and not just because they had a really bad start in life!

this is not what the whim purchaser or gift receiver signed on for...

efs

Edited December 17, 2010 by Skruffy n Flea

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

you missed the point of my post

Sorry, what was the point? I agree with you that it is education that will solve the problem, but it is not education of the BYB or whoever else - like the OP is suggesting.

Like you said it is education of the 'smokers' that is necessary. I was combining what you said with the overall thread.

Sorry if I've offended.

oh no offence taken at all AG

i think we need to do 3 things just like the smoking

educate the public on the issues

make the producers (BYB's) of the "product" pay (as in the USA where tobacco companies were sued by class action)

legislate and police

so in my world BYB's would have to do everything registered breeders are responsible for and this would be policed.

not so attractive for them to breed.

we are on the same page!

yes we are