Advice On How To Handle Ignoring Behaviour

[corvus]

Corvus - you make it sound so easy!

It is. ;)

Well, it doesn't have to be hard, anyway. If you have contingency plans, then you always know what to do when you screw up.

First, have an idea of the level of reliability you should have. I usually go for 80% if it's something that we haven't practiced in this environment much, or about 98% or more for something that's already trained and we are just maintaining.

If you are dropping below that success rate, you know something is up. You don't have to know what it is to do something about it. Increasing the reward rate is always my first port of call, unless it's something we are still learning, then go back a step or two. Sometimes all it needs is an increased reward rate for a few repetitions and then ease it back down again. I try to keep my training moving so my dogs don't come to expect a certain rate of reinforcement, or a certain type of reinforcement. That way if they act up I can be reasonably confident they are not just messing with me to get a higher reward rate. I have very clever dogs. They do things like that!

Second port of call is more practice in easier environments. It's usually pretty clear when this is the problem because increasing the reward rate doesn't increase the success rate.

If I know the success rate is usually around 80% or more, I tend to use a LRS (3 seconds of nothing), then ask the same thing a second time because sometimes my dog wasn't watching or didn't catch the cue. That seems to account for a lot of "non-compliance". If that wasn't the problem, or I have my dog staring at me after a cue for a behaviour they absolutely know in this environment, they get a LRS and I ask them for an easier behaviour. If they blow that one off, I walk away. It is very rare that I walk away. They very much want to earn rewards. Sometimes they are just not entirely sure how to do that.

Of course, that's the grossly simplified version and it's my version. I think it doesn't matter hugely what you do, but if you have a plan and some solid criteria, it makes it easier to make quick judgment calls and notice quickly when things are going awry. At least, that's been my experience. ;) Keeping a training diary helped, too. I stopped doing it because it was so time consuming, but it did teach me to make important mental notes. ;)

[fuzzy82]

When one of my dogs don't come outside when they are called, they get left behind inside, which they don't like. Same happens if they don't come inside when called in from the backyard.

This of course only works if the dog cares about being around you, and being around you in itself is a reward.

But dragging him out and then giving him a time out (and by then he would have forgotten what he did wrong anyway) seems a bit harsh for just not coming outside. He might have had a good reason for not wanting to go outside in the first place, and even if he didn't and he was just being obstinate, it's pretty pointless trying to punish him for something he has already rewarded himself for (running away and getting to stay inside was the reward). Sounds like you just got annoyed and decided to go on a personal power trip to me. I understand it, because dogs can be very frustrating, but that doesn't make it right, and it should be avoided.

I would stop asking him to do stuff that you can't enforce, or that you know he won't do. Keep a lead on him, if you call him outside and he doesn't come, stop him from going in the opposite direction with the lead, and lead him outside. Then make being outside with you a pleasant experience. I wouldn't expect my dogs to come outside if they were dragged there when they clearly didn't want to go, and then put in a time out.

But my dogs are quite soft, so that might be different.

Edited December 14, 2010 by fuzzy82

[siks3]

If my dog ignores me he gets a small leash correction then when he looks at me I treat him then I give the command, He obeys he gets the treat non compliance is a leash correction.

Sounds like the dogs training has not been balanced there needs to be a negative when he disobeys.

If a dog knows the command you are giving it and it doesn't go through with it it needs a correction.

If the dog is simply disobeying you because it is over excited it needs exercise.

Sitting here now waiting to get flamed.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If a dog knows the command you are giving it and it doesn't go through with it it needs a correction.

If the dog is simply disobeying you because it is over excited it needs exercise.

Sitting here now waiting to get flamed.

Not going to flame you, but often people over estimate what their dogs "know", particularly in situations like the OPs where both the location, the trainer and the other dogs are all different. Even competition trainers and instructors can be deluded about what their dogs know. Given that likely lack of knowledge I'd be more inclined just to follow up ALL failures to respond to an "outside" by leashing the dog and putting it outside with as little fuss as possible. I'd also reward the bugger every time it followed me outside but NOT bribe it to go outside. Unless it's a pretty unusual lab, it will cotton on pretty quickly. I would also not give cues that I know there is a good chance the dog will ignore unless the dog responds well to an instructive reprimand (and it doesn't sound like this one does). So rather than commanding the dog to go outside, I'd just get it and put it outside until its learning was better.

I have had to learn to deal with this issue a lot, having Salukis.

Edited December 14, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[lovemesideways]

He's not ignoring you if he's running in the opposite direction and playing keep away!

Yeah the little bastard....

Wouldn't you say that its still ignoring though, a known command (Come), basically a STFU to whatever I've said, I'm gonna make you chase me instead yayyy?

Hi LMS

I think he gets a week being corrupted and then comes back to your place and tries to shape you into the same thing. So maybe the first time you want him "outside" or anything else at your place - have the lead on before you say the command and make him do it - so he doesn't get the chance to "rehearse bad behaviour" (what SG says).

Depending where my dog and I are at with levels of compliance - I will make her walk one or two laps around the park before I let her off lead to remind her she has to earn the right... and she's much better behaved that way.

Do you know why he runs back inside? Does he like the personal attention? Is there something about being outside that he doesn't like? I have the opposite problem with my dog - she won't come in when I ask her to sometimes, and I fix that by saying "shutting the door now" and shutting it. Althought I broke that phrase and now use "in or out" and if she's not headed towards the door when I've finished saying it, I shut the door and leave her out all on her own (which she does not like much) for at least five to ten minutes. And I don't let her in if she's barking. She likes the game of chase-me or me-chase-dog that used to start if I wanted to catch her - usually for a walk to the park. Go figure. She likes the park but not the trip between the house and the park.

There isn't anything about being outside that is bad, he looves running in my yard. I don't really know why exactly he would flip me off and decided running through the house is better, might in fact be the personal attention.

My problem is I couldn't really safely let him run around my house without me inside. There is some equipment and cables in different rooms he could hurt himself on... I'll have to try shutting the door in his face and walking off if he tries it again,

Interesting what you say about corruption, I handed over the lead to his owner this afternoon after he walked beautifully on it all the way up to her car, the second I handed it over he starts to drag her off.. Maybe I gotta have the owner come around and teach her some stuff too.

If my dog ignores me he gets a small leash correction then when he looks at me I treat him then I give the command, He obeys he gets the treat non compliance is a leash correction.

Sounds like the dogs training has not been balanced there needs to be a negative when he disobeys.

If a dog knows the command you are giving it and it doesn't go through with it it needs a correction.

If the dog is simply disobeying you because it is over excited it needs exercise.

Sitting here now waiting to get flamed.

I don't have any problem with proper use of correction, Except how can you correct a dog when hes bolting in the opposite direction off lead?

Also I agree that I may be overestimating how much the dog really knows. Taking his owners word for a few things that he may not Reeaally understand which makes any kind of correction pretty redundant.

Edited December 14, 2010 by lovemesideways

[persephone]

Honestly, If I only had the dog one day a week- he would just be on lead if I wanted to take/put him anywhere . saves stress- he has no choice...there is no room for error.

Edited December 14, 2010 by persephone

[lovemesideways]

Honestly, If I only had the dog one day a week- he would just be on lead if I wanted to take/put him anywhere . saves stress- he has no choice...there is no room for error.

He is on lead when we're out (long line), but I'm thinking he's only gonna be offlead when we're in the backyard for now! ( a lead wouldn't be a good idea with mad labrador zoomies )

[persephone]

a lead wouldn't be a good idea with mad labrador zoomies )

true...

[corvus]

He's not ignoring you if he's running in the opposite direction and playing keep away!

Yeah the little bastard....

Wouldn't you say that its still ignoring though, a known command (Come), basically a STFU to whatever I've said, I'm gonna make you chase me instead yayyy?

Does it matter?

Ken Ramirez (who I'm going to marry) says an animal is always behaving. Not responding to a cue is a behaviour, and one he even reinforces if the cue wasn't intended for that animal. But the assumption is that the cue not meant for the animal was a stimulus that the animal is responding to by doing nothing (or waiting patiently, if you like). Seeing as you asked, I would say if the cue is given and the dog doesn't respond because the cue was not a stimulus, then the behaviour is not "ignoring the command" so much as "whatever the dog is doing in response to other stimuli". In which case either the dog doesn't understand the cue or the dog didn't hear or see the cue. The alternative is the dog is responding to the cue but in an undesirable way, such as running in the opposite direction and hiding. In that case, the cue is a stimulus and the behavioural response is "running away" rather than "ignoring".

It only really matters if you would treat them differently, IMO. One is a problem with the cue (stimulus) and one is a problem with the response, but just going back to basics would solve both. Punishing would not solve both, though, only the latter. Unless you apply punishments until the dog manages to hit on the right behaviour, which I guess turns it into a R- approach.

[KumaAkita]

He's not ignoring you if he's running in the opposite direction and playing keep away!

Yeah the little bastard....

Wouldn't you say that its still ignoring though, a known command (Come), basically a STFU to whatever I've said, I'm gonna make you chase me instead yayyy?

Does it matter?

Ken Ramirez (who I'm going to marry)

Does your OH know???

I tried to get my boy inside last night, he just bolted and started doing zoomies around the yard. Then when he started barking a few hours later (in the dead of night) I tried to get him back inside, he did the same thing. Cheeky shit. So, when you get the solution to the proveribal finger, lemme know will ya??

Edited December 14, 2010 by KumaAkita

[Aidan]

He's not ignoring you if he's running in the opposite direction and playing keep away!

Yeah the little bastard....

Wouldn't you say that its still ignoring though, a known command (Come), basically a STFU to whatever I've said, I'm gonna make you chase me instead yayyy?

I doubt that he's putting much thought into it, but dogs do do what works for them. Unfortunately we tend to assume they think it through, and that can frustrate us because it leads us to believe they are "ignoring" us or being "stubborn" or a whole bunch of things that don't motivate dog behaviour. Does that make sense?

You've got a lot of options, but the simplest is just going back to basics and conditioning the response you want, set him up for success. Then there is no confusion and it really won't take long. It really is that simple, hard as that may be for many to believe

[JulesP]

I would be working on developing a bond with the dog first.

Punishing him when he was outside was probably not the best thing to do. That would certainly not make my dogs want to go outside the next time I asked them too.

[corvus]

Ken Ramirez (who I'm going to marry)

Does your OH know???

It was his suggestion. He has all my husbands figured out. Ken Ramirez, Bob Bailey, Prince Caspian...

I tried to get my boy inside last night, he just bolted and started doing zoomies around the yard. Then when he started barking a few hours later (in the dead of night) I tried to get him back inside, he did the same thing. Cheeky shit. So, when you get the solution to the proveribal finger, lemme know will ya??

The solution is a sure bet. Erik got it into his head at one stage that we can't leave the house if he's in the yard, so when he saw us getting ready to go out he'd run outside and play keep away. I really have better things to do with my time than walk around and around the pool trying to get anywhere near a wily Vallhund. So when we leave he gets a treat, but he has to be inside to get it. He usually dances outside with me while I get the "we're going out" treats and then dances back inside with me and sits waiting for his chew, now, instead of playing silly buggers. Kivi is harder, but his idea of resistance is "forgetting" how to use his legs, so we are sloppy and just push him. I am sure he would come running every time if he thought he was getting steak or roast chicken out of it. He doesn't have to get steak or roast chicken every time, just think he might.

[wuffles]

The solution is a sure bet. Erik got it into his head at one stage that we can't leave the house if he's in the yard, so when he saw us getting ready to go out he'd run outside and play keep away. I really have better things to do with my time than walk around and around the pool trying to get anywhere near a wily Vallhund. So when we leave he gets a treat, but he has to be inside to get it. He usually dances outside with me while I get the "we're going out" treats and then dances back inside with me and sits waiting for his chew, now, instead of playing silly buggers. Kivi is harder, but his idea of resistance is "forgetting" how to use his legs, so we are sloppy and just push him. I am sure he would come running every time if he thought he was getting steak or roast chicken out of it. He doesn't have to get steak or roast chicken every time, just think he might.

My stubborn boy weighs everything up in his head and holds more value for "stuff" rather than "food" which makes it hard... "Do I want that treat more than I want to lie here on my bed? Nope!" "If I come when I'm called, I might get a treat... but will anything bad happen if I don't come and I just keep sniffing around here? No? I LOVE SNIFFING" "What are the changes of getting BBQ chicken if I do what they ask? Hrmm, pretty low... should I bother? Nahhhh...."

[Erny]

"What are the changes of getting BBQ chicken if I do what they ask? Hrmm, pretty low... should I bother? Nahhhh...."

If you're suggesting your dog WOULD do it if there was BBQ Chicken on offer, then you need to increase the chances of your dog getting BBQ Chicken for doing what you ask. That's one way and often a way that will work in the context of situations we are talking about here.

[poodlefan]

LMS if he's not your dog and he lures well, why not just continue to lure him?

Want him outside? Toss a treat out there.

Its hardly ideal in terms of a long term training method but if it works and that's what his owners do then I'd do that.

[corvus]

My stubborn boy weighs everything up in his head and holds more value for "stuff" rather than "food" which makes it hard... "Do I want that treat more than I want to lie here on my bed? Nope!" "If I come when I'm called, I might get a treat... but will anything bad happen if I don't come and I just keep sniffing around here? No? I LOVE SNIFFING" "What are the changes of getting BBQ chicken if I do what they ask? Hrmm, pretty low... should I bother? Nahhhh...."

They are pretty clever. Kivi does a bit of that as well. It is pretty obvious where we have been sloppy in his training, and it's where he thinks about it before he does it. Ideally there should be nothing to weigh up. It's just "Oh, that means good stuff!" and they do it before thinking about whether it's worth their while or not. It works better for some dogs than others, though. Erik is extraordinarily optimistic. You could holler his name at the top of your lungs and chances are he would come over to gaze up at you wagging his tail, hoping he's done something to earn a reward of some kind. Kivi on the other hand, he knows what the chances of reward are and he's not doing anything 'just in case'. He does things when he's 90% sure it will be rewarded. I think with some dogs you have to accept that maintaining behaviour takes a bit of work. It certainly does with Kivi.

[wuffles]

They are pretty clever. Kivi does a bit of that as well. It is pretty obvious where we have been sloppy in his training, and it's where he thinks about it before he does it. Ideally there should be nothing to weigh up. It's just "Oh, that means good stuff!" and they do it before thinking about whether it's worth their while or not. It works better for some dogs than others, though. Erik is extraordinarily optimistic. You could holler his name at the top of your lungs and chances are he would come over to gaze up at you wagging his tail, hoping he's done something to earn a reward of some kind. Kivi on the other hand, he knows what the chances of reward are and he's not doing anything 'just in case'. He does things when he's 90% sure it will be rewarded. I think with some dogs you have to accept that maintaining behaviour takes a bit of work. It certainly does with Kivi.

With Satch, it's pretty difficult because he is really hard to motivate. Sometimes he decides that lying on his bed inside is a better option than ANYTHING else we could offer him. Another example... I reward him 100% of the time for recalls, generally with "high value" food (he's not highly food motivated, or remotely toy motivated) yet he finds it MORE rewarding to sniff and pee on things, so often he doesn't come. You can call out "Satch, come!" and he'll turn around, look at you, look at the food in your hands, sniff their air and determine it's good food but... then he'll blow you off anyway

Ava is a different kettle of fish. She was born to please and does anything that is asked of her. She sees a chance of working with her human as a reward in itself.

Anyway, I know this makes my dog sound like a monster, whereas in reality he is a super easy dog to live with. 90% of the time he does what you ask without complaint. He needs firm handling at times but a dog who lies on his bed all day is the dream of some dog owners

(Sorry, hope I'm not hijacking the thread, just hoping to give some perspective on differences in personality!)

[The Spotted Devil]

They are pretty clever. Kivi does a bit of that as well. It is pretty obvious where we have been sloppy in his training, and it's where he thinks about it before he does it. Ideally there should be nothing to weigh up. It's just "Oh, that means good stuff!" and they do it before thinking about whether it's worth their while or not. It works better for some dogs than others, though. Erik is extraordinarily optimistic. You could holler his name at the top of your lungs and chances are he would come over to gaze up at you wagging his tail, hoping he's done something to earn a reward of some kind. Kivi on the other hand, he knows what the chances of reward are and he's not doing anything 'just in case'. He does things when he's 90% sure it will be rewarded. I think with some dogs you have to accept that maintaining behaviour takes a bit of work. It certainly does with Kivi.

With Satch, it's pretty difficult because he is really hard to motivate. Sometimes he decides that lying on his bed inside is a better option than ANYTHING else we could offer him. Another example... I reward him 100% of the time for recalls, generally with "high value" food (he's not highly food motivated, or remotely toy motivated) yet he finds it MORE rewarding to sniff and pee on things, so often he doesn't come. You can call out "Satch, come!" and he'll turn around, look at you, look at the food in your hands, sniff their air and determine it's good food but... then he'll blow you off anyway

Ava is a different kettle of fish. She was born to please and does anything that is asked of her. She sees a chance of working with her human as a reward in itself.

Anyway, I know this makes my dog sound like a monster, whereas in reality he is a super easy dog to live with. 90% of the time he does what you ask without complaint. He needs firm handling at times but a dog who lies on his bed all day is the dream of some dog owners

(Sorry, hope I'm not hijacking the thread, just hoping to give some perspective on differences in personality!)

For sure - I have a Dalmatian

You can use a lot of that to your advantage though.....favourite thing in the world is sniffing, peeing and running free? No problem - come to me when you're called, you get a fabulous treat and then you are released to do your favourite thing. Don't come to me? OK - well, back on lead and no sniffing or peeing for a few minutes (a long time in a dog's world ;) ). Release and try again. It took a lot of commitment and consistency (and ALL food came from me for doing something for a few weeks at his absolute worst adolescence phase) but his recall is pretty darn good (I never say 100% because there is always something like a bitch in season that could be his undoing). At Dogs Day Out I was doing an obedience and agility demo on the Dally Club stand. I actually let him get really, really distracted on purpose so I could demonstrate how I have conditioned him to switch on when he needs to. He did not put his nose to the ground once and did everything asked of him....although he did take a jump on the way back to his crate for the pure fun of it You have to build value and you have to hold the key to it!

[wuffles]

For sure - I have a Dalmatian

You can use a lot of that to your advantage though.....favourite thing in the world is sniffing, peeing and running free? No problem - come to me when you're called, you get a fabulous treat and then you are released to do your favourite thing. Don't come to me? OK - well, back on lead and no sniffing or peeing for a few minutes (a long time in a dog's world ). Release and try again. It took a lot of commitment and consistency (and ALL food came from me for doing something for a few weeks at his absolute worst adolescence phase) but his recall is pretty darn good (I never say 100% because there is always something like a bitch in season that could be his undoing). At Dogs Day Out I was doing an obedience and agility demo on the Dally Club stand. I actually let him get really, really distracted on purpose so I could demonstrate how I have conditioned him to switch on when he needs to. He did not put his nose to the ground once and did everything asked of him....although he did take a jump on the way back to his crate for the pure fun of it You have to build value and you have to hold the key to it!

Yes, I do agree and you have obviously put lots of work into your boy! I have spent a lot of time working on his recall (doing lots of call - reward - release) so it's much better than when we got him, but if I slack off even for a few days he's on top of it again. He came to us at 3 years old (he's now 6) and the foster carer warned us that he would not run away off leash, but wouldn't necessarily come to us either... not sure if he had it reinforced heavily at his old home or if it's just his nature. He's never going to be an obedience dog so although he still goes to classes and does a few training sessions a week, I will admit that I can't bring myself to put in the work it takes to have him 100% reliable He stays on leash unless we are in a safe, known area, and he spends most of his time on his bed -- exactly where he likes to be!