Advice On How To Handle Ignoring Behaviour

[lovemesideways]

So I'm looking after my friends dog once a week and the biggest problem I've noticed is that he will basically flip you off 99% of the time you tell him to do ANYTHING.

Example, We where all headed into the yard, I walked out with my 2 boys, turned around and He is standing in the doorway. I say "come on, outside" (outside being the command that he knows). He looks at me, then bolts in the opposite direction into the house (EDIT: Just adding, I then said Come after Outside when he ignored it) . Now this was probably the wrong reaction, but I followed him inside, cornered him (after about 5 minutes) and then dragged him by the collar and threw him outside, alone, and shut the curtain. Gave it a minute, he was totally silent, then came outside and stood with my arms crossed ignoring his existence until he went and laid down. Then I called him for a pat.

I'm wondering how I should approach this behaviour as well as the whole flipping off at every basic command unless bribed by food thing.. I will be looking after him weekly and I don't really think his owners will do that much at home with him.

Any suggestions on how to work on this?

My thoughts so far are that I need to go back to very basics with him. Always on lead so he doesn't have the opportunity to get away like that. Maybe do training sessions with him throughout the day while hes here.

Edited December 21, 2010 by lovemesideways

[persephone]

Ermmmm-

what is this dog's general temperament

how long have you known him?

how does he get along with your dogs?

what training has he had?

if someone did that to one of my dogs I wouldn't be pleased

[megan_]

He might not know what you saying outside in your house means. If someone else asks my dogs to sit, they'll ignore it too. They only take "orders" from me (or Erny... when she speaks, they listen!).

[lovemesideways]

Ermmmm-

what is this dog's general temperament

how long have you known him?

how does he get along with your dogs?

what training has he had?

if someone did that to one of my dogs I wouldn't be pleased

Know him since he was a puppy, nice dog, he goes into excited waggy labrador motions every time he sees me . Gets along great with my dogs, though he is a bit obsessive with licking Rovers face. He has had all the basic training, sit, down, stay, come. But he completely ignores his owners most of the time unless there is food right infront of his nose. It is their first dog, he was supposed to go to guide dogs but couldn't because of issues with one of his legs.

The owner is fine with anything I want to do with him, I wouldn't do something she was not ok with. (she is a friend). Plus it wasn't anything over the top, collar grab, pulled outside and given a timeout. I may have over dramatised it before.

Edit to add, this isn't the first time he has been here and I have already gone through and established what commands he knows. So its not a case of hes ignoring me cause I'm not "Pack". He listens to me more than his owners (or atleast thats what his mum tells me!) Its more a case of, I can ignore any and all humans without consequences.

Edited December 14, 2010 by lovemesideways

[wuffles]

Maybe he just needs to learn your rules better first. I have one very stubborn boy at my house so let me know if you find a solution

If mine refuses to go in/out he generally just gets left where he is and the door closed for a minute or two. He does what he's told pretty quickly when the door opens again. I do use bribery if it's important to get him somewhere right at that moment. Mine is trained, we use NILIF yet he's still a stubborn idiot occasionally... thankfully he's such a nice dog to live with generally that it doesn't matter all that much.

Edited December 14, 2010 by wuffles

[raineth]

hmmm I really don't like the sound of dragging him by the scruff of the neck Why couldn't you have just clipped on a lead and led him out

You don't need to be rough to show leadership.

my dogs don't understand other people's commands even if they happen to be the same word. Well that's not entirely true, they usually catch on to 'sit'. But anything else they don't. While the same word is used usually the way it is said and all the accompanying gestures, and often the context is completely different.

Maybe that dog understands 'outside' when that is said by its owners, in its own house. When it is said by you, in your house, there is a good chance the dog won't understand.

Also if it is a soft dog then it will be very put off by a confrontational style.

My lovely soft rescue dog is upset when he doesn't understand something and he will shut down pretty quickly.

[raineth]

The owner is fine with anything I want to do with him, I wouldn't do something she was not ok with. (she is a friend). Plus it wasn't anything over the top, collar grab, pulled outside and given a timeout. I may have over dramatised it before.

Edit to add, this isn't the first time he has been here and I have already gone through and established what commands he knows. So its not a case of hes ignoring me cause I'm not "Pack". He listens to me more than his owners (or atleast thats what his mum tells me!) Its more a case of, I can ignore any and all humans without consequences.

oh o.k.

I pictured something different.

[lovemesideways]

hmmm I really don't like the sound of dragging him by the scruff of the neck Why couldn't you have just clipped on a lead and led him out

You don't need to be rough to show leadership.

my dogs don't understand other people's commands even if they happen to be the same word. Well that's not entirely true, they usually catch on to 'sit'. But anything else they don't. While the same word is used usually the way it is said and all the accompanying gestures, and often the context is completely different.

Maybe that dog understands 'outside' when that is said by its owners, in its own house. When it is said by you, in your house, there is a good chance the dog won't understand.

Also if it is a soft dog then it will be very put off by a confrontational style.

My lovely soft rescue dog is upset when he doesn't understand something and he will shut down pretty quickly.

Well I didn't have a lead, I grabbed him by the collar and its not going to hurt him. He is not at all soft in any way, shape or form. One of my lab boys is very soft, so much as raise your voice and he winces (we call him Snap dog, Sensitive New Age Puppy) so I know what you mean about shutting down.

[Aidan]

Just go back to basics. If he will do it when you have food, then you need to transition food out of the picture.

[lovemesideways]

Just go back to basics. If he will do it when you have food, then you need to transition food out of the picture.

Yeah thats what Im thinking.. I don't think they ever faded luring. ( I think it was a case of, the guide dog people will do it when they get him.)

If he knows the commands, should I still start as if he is a puppy do you think?

Edited December 14, 2010 by lovemesideways

[wuffles]

My stubborn boy is not soft, and you have to be pretty rough to actually get him out by his collar (he's 36kg and can make himself feel like 100kg when he doesn't want to do something). So I understand what you mean.

Can you try using food and lots of rewards and gradually phase those out? For example, lure him outside a few times, then see if he will do it for a reward on the ground, randomise where they come from. Let him know that the rewards don't always come from you specifically? Once he realises that, you could probably phase out rewards if you wanted to. We just always have treats on hand

[Aidan]

Just go back to basics. If he will do it when you have food, then you need to transition food out of the picture.

Yeah thats what Im thinking.. I don't think they ever faded luring! ( I think it was a case of, the guide dog people will do it when they get him.)

If he knows the commands, should I still start as if he is a puppy do you think?

It wouldn't hurt, if it turns out you can raise the criteria very quickly at first then that is a bonus. I don't even put the cue on until I have to, no point changing what it means all the time until it's right IMHO.

[persephone]

Can you try using food and lots of rewards and gradually phase those out? For example, lure him outside a few times, then see if he will do it for a reward on the ground, randomise where they come from. Let him know that the rewards don't always come from you specifically? Once he realises that, you could probably phase out rewards if you wanted to. We just always have treats on hand

This sounds good - he needs to be gently eased into a different way of doing things whilst at your place ..it is a bit dislocating.. different rules

[lovemesideways]

My stubborn boy is not soft, and you have to be pretty rough to actually get him out by his collar (he's 36kg and can make himself feel like 100kg when he doesn't want to do something). So I understand what you mean.

Can you try using food and lots of rewards and gradually phase those out? For example, lure him outside a few times, then see if he will do it for a reward on the ground, randomise where they come from. Let him know that the rewards don't always come from you specifically? Once he realises that, you could probably phase out rewards if you wanted to. We just always have treats on hand

Yep thats what I do with puppies to start with. I always have my treat bag on me anyway when Ive got dogs around!

Just go back to basics. If he will do it when you have food, then you need to transition food out of the picture.

Yeah thats what Im thinking.. I don't think they ever faded luring! ( I think it was a case of, the guide dog people will do it when they get him.)

If he knows the commands, should I still start as if he is a puppy do you think?

It wouldn't hurt, if it turns out you can raise the criteria very quickly at first then that is a bonus. I don't even put the cue on until I have to, no point changing what it means all the time until it's right IMHO.

Yeah good point. Thanks

[corvus]

He's not ignoring you if he's running in the opposite direction and playing keep away!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi LMS

I think he gets a week being corrupted and then comes back to your place and tries to shape you into the same thing. So maybe the first time you want him "outside" or anything else at your place - have the lead on before you say the command and make him do it - so he doesn't get the chance to "rehearse bad behaviour" (what SG says).

Depending where my dog and I are at with levels of compliance - I will make her walk one or two laps around the park before I let her off lead to remind her she has to earn the right... and she's much better behaved that way.

Do you know why he runs back inside? Does he like the personal attention? Is there something about being outside that he doesn't like? I have the opposite problem with my dog - she won't come in when I ask her to sometimes, and I fix that by saying "shutting the door now" and shutting it. Althought I broke that phrase and now use "in or out" and if she's not headed towards the door when I've finished saying it, I shut the door and leave her out all on her own (which she does not like much) for at least five to ten minutes. And I don't let her in if she's barking. She likes the game of chase-me or me-chase-dog that used to start if I wanted to catch her - usually for a walk to the park. Go figure. She likes the park but not the trip between the house and the park.

[Erny]

If mine refuses to go in/out he generally just gets left where he is and the door closed for a minute or two.

This is what I do as well if I can ("if I can" meaning that it is safe for me to leave my/the dog where he is). They very quickly learn if they don't, they get left out of it. I'd also use NILIF as per Wuffles' suggestion.

[corvus]

Depending where my dog and I are at with levels of compliance - I will make her walk one or two laps around the park before I let her off lead to remind her she has to earn the right... and she's much better behaved that way.

Is that really why she's better behaved?

"Non-compliance" needn't be a big deal. In Steve White's words, it just tells you what you get to do more training on. Yay! If you set them up to succeed it's a problem you rarely have to deal with. If that means walking the dog around the park on leash first, or keeping treats on you to reward every correct response for a while, then that's what you do. If the dog doesn't do what they're told, that's your problem. It's your responsibility to assess where you went wrong and how you made it too hard for them to succeed. If you don't know, just take a step or two backwards until compliance is high again and carry on as usual.

[Max#1]

Corvus - you make it sound so easy!

[spitzbaby]

Corvus - you make it sound so easy!

+1