Socialisation/vaccinations

[Nekhbet]

Of course, but we are talking socialisation versus disease vulnerability is the OP's predicament and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term. If the dog is that crappy in temperament to need the early socialisation you speak of, that presents another issue doesn't it really???.

Vaccines are not 100% effective either. My dog was vaccinated and still got parvo. If you're that paranoid about parvo lock your pup in a bubble since you can bring parvovirus into your house on your shoes especially after some dew or rain. It can live in the soil just in your front yard, back yard or heck anywhere! No pup is safe! you can rediculously paranoid about it or you can be SMART about it and put your dog in a carry bag and take it to places not frequented by a lot of dogs like beaches and dog parks.

Other dogs are locked up away from the world, their owners go to work 5 days a week, puppy preschool 1 hour a week and think their dog is fine. Probably not too bad, some terrible, others fine.

I should have kept the dog I had here - unsocialised up until 10 weeks of age then socialised after. Terrifying animal, almost like looking at a feral dog. Probably an extreme example but it's not to be sneezed at.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Aidan]

and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term.

Ignore the science at your peril.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

Depends who's science you prefer Aidan. The science to best avoid parvo and other life threatening diseases in a small vulnerable pup works best for me

I was more referring to what we know about critical periods. Arguably, 14 weeks is already leaving things a bit too late and I certainly wouldn't leave it any later.

There are differing opinions on how best to manage the risk, but setting up safe, sensible situations where pups can experience and deal with new things is regarded as one of the most important things you can do in the life of the pup. There has been a lot of research and it all points in the same direction, this is not just a matter of opinion.

[abed]

Of course, but we are talking socialisation versus disease vulnerability is the OP's predicament and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term. If the dog is that crappy in temperament to need the early socialisation you speak of, that presents another issue doesn't it really???.

Vaccines are not 100% effective either. My dog was vaccinated and still got parvo. If you're that paranoid about parvo lock your pup in a bubble since you can bring parvovirus into your house on your shoes especially after some dew or rain. It can live in the soil just in your front yard, back yard or heck anywhere! No pup is safe! you can rediculously paranoid about it or you can be SMART about it and put your dog in a carry bag and take it to places not frequented by a lot of dogs like beaches and dog parks.

Other dogs are locked up away from the world, their owners go to work 5 days a week, puppy preschool 1 hour a week and think their dog is fine. Probably not too bad, some terrible, others fine.

I should have kept the dog I had here - unsocialised up until 10 weeks of age then socialised after. Terrifying animal, almost like looking at a feral dog. Probably an extreme example but it's not to be sneezed at.

I have seen too often, the same behaviours exhibited in both socialised and unsocialised dogs and I am sure you would have too Nekhbet???. The usocialised one's a lack of socialisation is blamed for the behaviour. With the socialised one's, incorrect socialisation techniques are blamed for the behaviour. Unless the socialisation proceedure is conducted to absolute perfection, it can be good or bad so we walk a fine line along with expose to disease thrown into the mix also to contend with.

Rottweillers are predisposed to maternal antibodies interferring with immunisation and many Rott breeders are playing with different vaccination routines to try and keep them safer, not a good example using a Rott contracting parvo which I guess is the pup you are talking about???. There a plenty of other things than can be achieved with a pup until they are traditionally less vulnerable medically and focus exercises and leash walking basics around the yard over those few weeks is one of my favorites. Plenty of herding and farm dog's I have seen have never been socialised at all, with impeccable obedience as adults, you wouldn't know the difference. I guess though, ute aggression, touch the ute and I will kill you may be result of anti socialised behaviour

[Nekhbet]

problem is medicine couldnt guarentee when he was covered. He was already over 3 months of age, yet he had spent time out on the street, with other people etc.

Actually all pups have some maternal antibody interference for the first vaccine, and traditionally given at 6 weeks meant those pups had little immunity.

I have seen too often, the same behaviours exhibited in both socialised and unsocialised dogs and I am sure you would have too Nekhbet???. The usocialised one's a lack of socialisation is blamed for the behaviour. With the socialised one's, incorrect socialisation techniques are blamed for the behaviour. Unless the socialisation proceedure is conducted to absolute perfection, it can be good or bad so we walk a fine line along with expose to disease thrown into the mix also to contend with.

Spend some time with a pup/dog and you can start picking the behaviours that stem from just lack of training and guidence and those that come from lack of being socialised properly, if at all, to a situation. I dont 'blame' which is the point. But I like to give a dog the best start in life it can get. Why make problems when you can avoid them with a little effort spent socialising them.

[abed]

and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term.

Ignore the science at your peril.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

Depends who's science you prefer Aidan. The science to best avoid parvo and other life threatening diseases in a small vulnerable pup works best for me

I was more referring to what we know about critical periods. Arguably, 14 weeks is already leaving things a bit too late and I certainly wouldn't leave it any later.

There are differing opinions on how best to manage the risk, but setting up safe, sensible situations where pups can experience and deal with new things is regarded as one of the most important things you can do in the life of the pup. There has been a lot of research and it all points in the same direction, this is not just a matter of opinion.

As a trainer Aidan, you would have seen both terrible and good dogs from both factions I am sure.............I know I have, so to be conclusive irrespective of science studies in the real world is difficult to determine the truth of things. I have seen some really bad dogs that were unsocilaised early as pups, and some really good one's and vice versa, gee whizz, it's not as simple and set in stone as it looks

[abed]

problem is medicine couldnt guarentee when he was covered. He was already over 3 months of age, yet he had spent time out on the street, with other people etc.

Actually all pups have some maternal antibody interference for the first vaccine, and traditionally given at 6 weeks meant those pups had little immunity.

I have seen too often, the same behaviours exhibited in both socialised and unsocialised dogs and I am sure you would have too Nekhbet???. The usocialised one's a lack of socialisation is blamed for the behaviour. With the socialised one's, incorrect socialisation techniques are blamed for the behaviour. Unless the socialisation proceedure is conducted to absolute perfection, it can be good or bad so we walk a fine line along with expose to disease thrown into the mix also to contend with.

Spend some time with a pup/dog and you can start picking the behaviours that stem from just lack of training and guidence and those that come from lack of being socialised properly, if at all, to a situation. I dont 'blame' which is the point. But I like to give a dog the best start in life it can get. Why make problems when you can avoid them with a little effort spent socialising them.

That's the problem..............you can't really tell as so many variables come into play when dealing with an unwanted adolecsent or adult behaviour that has

surfaced. There are always exeptions to the rules to throw a spanner in the works???. Like the '08 WUSV champion dog was a rescue aquired at 18 months no training whatsoever, beat all the dogs raised specifically for sport???. How many advocate than unless a sporting pup is raised a particular way, you are wasting your time???. Too many curved balls IMHO to really judge the difference all things taken into account

[Aidan]

The usocialised one's a lack of socialisation is blamed for the behaviour. With the socialised one's, incorrect socialisation techniques are blamed for the behaviour. Unless the socialisation proceedure is conducted to absolute perfection, it can be good or bad so we walk a fine line

Risk management.

Not socialising a pup carries the greater risk by far. The risk of getting it wrong is relatively low, genetics plays a large part in how that turns out, and not socialising that pup would almost guarantee a problem. You just have to be sensible about it.

http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/146321/1/kate_vbjcar_abstract.rtf (a longitudinal study)

[Aidan]

I know I have, so to be conclusive irrespective of science studies in the real world is difficult to determine the truth of things. I have seen some really bad dogs that were unsocilaised early as pups, and some really good one's and vice versa, gee whizz, it's not as simple and set in stone as it looks

We can't tell how things will work out for any individual pup, but we can tell how things will work out across a population. And individual dogs are part of that population.

If you look at extremes, dogs who were rescued with no socialisation who went on to win WUSV championships for e.g, you present a very skewed picture for yourself. Will every rescue who received no socialisation go on to win a WUSV championship? No, in fact, you aren't likely to see another for a very long time. Then we need to look at all the other dogs who have won WUSV championships, what were their up-bringings like? Vastly different, I would imagine.

A lot of the studies are real world. I've just linked to one for you in my previous reply. Real world, looking at a population of dogs over time.

[abed]

The usocialised one's a lack of socialisation is blamed for the behaviour. With the socialised one's, incorrect socialisation techniques are blamed for the behaviour. Unless the socialisation proceedure is conducted to absolute perfection, it can be good or bad so we walk a fine line

Risk management.

Not socialising a pup carries the greater risk by far. The risk of getting it wrong is relatively low, genetics plays a large part in how that turns out, and not socialising that pup would almost guarantee a problem. You just have to be sensible about it.

http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/146321/1/kate_vbjcar_abstract.rtf (a longitudinal study)

Did you take an asprin today Aidan, science claims it reduces the onest of cancer....................tomorrow there will someting else, perhaps a beer with a bit of luck I know where you are coming from, but I can't see with the variables thown at us from my experience that I can say 100% that unless you socialise early, you will end up with a crappy dog, not even close for me to make that an absolute fact.

[Aidan]

I can't see with the variables thown at us from my experience that I can say 100% that unless you socialise early, you will end up with a crappy dog, not even close for me to make that an absolute fact.

No-one has said that, what they have said is that the odds are against you if that is the choice you make.

BTW, taking aspirin involves risk management too. If you fit a certain profile, the risk of not taking it outweighs the risks of taking it. So no, I didn't take an aspirin today I'm 33 and I play a lot of sport.

[Aussienot]

Abed, I think your understanding of socialisation is possibly outdated and one-dimensional. It is not just a bunch of pups running around. Socialising in a controlled way exposes the puppy to a range of things so the world is a less scary place -

Other animals- dogs and puppies, of course, but also cats, chickens, horses, etc, whatever it will have to live around

People - young, old, men, women, people with hats, people with beards, people with canes , etc

Noises - traffic, telephones, vacuum cleaners, clanging, clapping, etc

Experiences - car, grass, concrete, tile, carpet, sand, etc

Of course there is a risk of disease if your pup is out in public before full immunity, but to some extent this risk can be limited by the owner. Don't take you pup anywhere it is common for dogs to congregate unless it is disenfected between uses. Only allow contact with immunised pups and dogs. It's a choice of exposing to illness but maximising the time when your puppy will readily accept new things; or sacrificing social experiences to minimise health risks.

The behavioural benefit of socialisation in the first couple of months is enormous. You can reduced some of the damage of undersocialisation if you miss this period, but never have the same level of default behaviour. Of course, one six week puppy class does not result in a perfect adult. Dogs need to be constantly socialised for the first year of life at minimum and every dog needs some form of on-going training.

And an untrained dog that is well-socialised is a problem, but an untrained dog that has never left the backyard is a nightmare.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Aussienot

[abed]

I can't see with the variables thown at us from my experience that I can say 100% that unless you socialise early, you will end up with a crappy dog, not even close for me to make that an absolute fact.

No-one has said that, what they have said is that the odds are against you if that is the choice you make.

BTW, taking aspirin involves risk management too. If you fit a certain profile, the risk of not taking it outweighs the risks of taking it. So no, I didn't take an aspirin today ;) I'm 33 and I play a lot of sport.

Can I tempt you with a beer then .

I am not talking no socialisation, I am talking or should I say, I should be talking about the period when the pup is most disease vulnerable to keep the thread on track for the OP. 14 weeks until you put the pup on the ground for a full socialisation process I don't think is a huge problem manifesting itself to wayward dog to be overly worried about. You can take the dog out for a drive, carry it etc, but if you want it belting around the park and playing with other dogs before the vaccinations are supposed to be kicked in, be careful, than can easily pick up disease that can send a puppy prematurely to bridge. I would prefer to work on some training to overcome a lack of early socialisation if that's the case, than not having the puppy lost through disease that I may have been able to prevent, is the crux of my opinion ;)

[Aidan]

I can't see with the variables thown at us from my experience that I can say 100% that unless you socialise early, you will end up with a crappy dog, not even close for me to make that an absolute fact.

No-one has said that, what they have said is that the odds are against you if that is the choice you make.

BTW, taking aspirin involves risk management too. If you fit a certain profile, the risk of not taking it outweighs the risks of taking it. So no, I didn't take an aspirin today ;) I'm 33 and I play a lot of sport.

Can I tempt you with a beer then

You twisted my arm...

[Aidan]

I can't see with the variables thown at us from my experience that I can say 100% that unless you socialise early, you will end up with a crappy dog, not even close for me to make that an absolute fact.

No-one has said that, what they have said is that the odds are against you if that is the choice you make.

BTW, taking aspirin involves risk management too. If you fit a certain profile, the risk of not taking it outweighs the risks of taking it. So no, I didn't take an aspirin today ;) I'm 33 and I play a lot of sport.

Can I tempt you with a beer then

You twisted my arm...

[MissCheevius]

We just got our little man, a lil Staffy.

He has only been with us 3 days, but we have visited all our family (and we have the last name Smith, so you can imagine how many that is!). So far, Blitz has encountered about 8 dogs, all of whom are very healthy, loved, vaccinated dogs. We felt it was more important to socialise him, and include him in our family.

My vet recommendd having his vaccinations every 4 weeks, not every 2 as recommended by other vets. She said that was due to the low incidence in the area. Does anyone have any insight on this? I gather Blitz should have at least 1 vaccination, but preferably more, before going to puppy school. One school said he just needed to be at least 10 days post his first vaccine. Should we wait another 4 weeks to vaccinate him, and start puppy school then? Or should we go in 2 weeks for another needle, then take him? MY gut feeling is that we should get the next one in 2 weeks time.

Any advice or insight would be appreciated. Its also been hard to get class starting dates during the festive season, as that may also influence our decision (dont want him to wait 8 weeks..). Cheers!

[Mystiqview]

Talk to your local vet/s:

Ask them what their instances of parvo and Kennel cough is.

I would avoid Main dog offleash parks and major public areas like that until the full set of vaccinations are given.

If you know of trusted friends who you (and they) think your dog would get along fine with and not be intimidated by the other dog, then IMO socialise with them. The biggest danger is the other dog being a little big rough or not knowing its own strength. etc and accidently hurting or injuring a young pup.

Take him to puppy school. This time of year can be hard due to holidays etc.. But these are generally controlled environments and lets face it.. if you go to a local vet.. it is no different to taking the pup down for its vaccinations etc.

You can get paranoid if you are not careful. In reality, there is more danger of your pup developing a behavioural issue through poor socialisation than it getting parvo or KC (unless there is an outbreak in your area).

But really. Socialise your dog. Be sensible about it.

[Miranda]

My vet recommendd having his vaccinations every 4 weeks, not every 2 as recommended by other vets.

I have never heard of a vet vaccinating every two weeks. Puppies should be vaccinated at 6/8 weeks (preferably nearer to 8 weeks) and 12/14 weeks, some vets recommend a third vacc at 16/18 weeks and some don't. I'm assuming that your puppy was given his first vaccination by the breeder at 6/8 weeks in which case he can begin puppy school 10/14 days after his first vacc.

[MissCheevius]

Cheers guys. Dont know where I heard he needed at least 2 vaccines to go to puppy school. HE s all up to date now anyway, so as soon as I get my new roser we can book him in. Cant wait.

Poor little dude slept almost all day yesterday, think he wore himself out with all his socialising!

Hope your Maltese is bringing you lots of joy Katie P

[Mystiqview]

Miss Chevious,

Depends on where you go for you puppy school. If you are going to an ANKC affiliated dog obedience club, then by their rules, pups should not be on their grounds before 12 weeks of age (generally when most are given their second vaccination).

A lot of pet store, vets and private puppy schools run their puppy classes from 8 weeks. Some do continual intakes and others will do structured intakes.

You are not confusing vaccinations every two weeks with worming every two weeks. As puppies should be wormed every two weeks until they are 12 weeks of age.

[MissCheevius]

Miss Chevious,

Depends on where you go for you puppy school. If you are going to an ANKC affiliated dog obedience club, then by their rules, pups should not be on their grounds before 12 weeks of age (generally when most are given their second vaccination).

A lot of pet store, vets and private puppy schools run their puppy classes from 8 weeks. Some do continual intakes and others will do structured intakes.

You are not confusing vaccinations every two weeks with worming every two weeks. As puppies should be wormed every two weeks until they are 12 weeks of age.

Possibly thats where my mix-up came from!

Possibly also information overload (self-inflicted of course!) along with my Birthday, Xmas, and sleep deprivation!

I have found several puppy classes. We are waiting to hear back from the Animal Welfare League though, which is prob our first preference. If no luck, then the next choice will probably be the Petstock one, ran by the company. Fortunately our rosters have worked out that both myself and partner should be able to attend all classes. Shiftwork is great sometimes (ie puppy will never be home alone more than 2-3 hours) but somtimes it can be a PITA (ie working out when we can both go to puppy classes!).

Most of the ANKC classes in our area state the dog must be at least 4 months. Im a bit confused at this, as I read that this is the 'fear' period, and I dont really want to scare him at this time, however I know they are experienced and trained people, so maybe this is best. At the same time, I dont want to not take him to puppy class in the meantime, as we may learn a few things and have some fun at puppy class.

Our lil man so far seems to know his name most of the time, will sit on command, etc. We've only had him a week, so I think thats a decent start. The next thing we are trying to teach is loose lead on the driveway (newly built home, im happy for him to be on the driveway).

Im not sure what we will acheive at a puppy class, as I think we are teaching him basic skills anyway, and I dont expect to acheive a lot in 4 x 1 hr lessons with a lot of distractions. Our pup has been socialised with a lot of our large families dogs, so I gather these puppy classes (8-14 weeks old) are designed more for socialising pups who otherwise wouldnt be exposed. Please advise if I can expect to acheive more!!

I think the other problem has been that some vets recommend vaccinations at 6,8,10 and 12 weeks, whereas others have said 6, 10, 12-14 weeks. Our little guy didnt get his first til he was 7 weeks, so that just through another curveball into the equation.

Thanks very much for your response.