Socialisation/vaccinations

[Katie P]

Hi all,

This may have already been mentioned etc but I had trouble searching for the relevant info within this section! (Computer illiterate! )

I am picking up my Maltese puppy this coming weekend and have been doing a lot of research as you do. I am feeling torn and confused about balancing socialisation verses waiting for vaccinations. My pup has recieved some shots at 6 weeks (he will be 9 weeks on pickup) and the breeder recommends not to socialise until he recieves all of them. However I am very concious and determined that he shall be properly socialised around people and other dogs and want to start as soon as possible. Is it a case that we have to make a decision between the two or can this be balanced? We have friends with friendly, socialised and calm dogs (all up to date on vaccinations/free from disease etc) and would like to introduce him to them fairly soon after we bring him home. This would be a case of us visiting their homes not taking him to a public place or anything. Would taking him to the shops be ok or not advised (we don't want to baby him and won't be carrying him)? Would it be detrimental to the socialisation process if we wait? I know there probably is a lot of grey areas concerning this, but we just want to ensure we are doing the right thing!

Puppy school from other posts appears to be ok? (Also does anyone know any good ones in the North Shore Sydney area?)

Your comments/suggestions will be most welcome. This is our first dog.

Thank you

*Note not my puppy, a friends

Edited January 3, 2011 by Katie P

[abed]

Hi all,

This may have already been mentioned etc but I had trouble searching for the relevant info within this section! (Computer illiterate! )

I am picking up my Maltese puppy this coming weekend and have been doing a lot of research as you do. I am feeling torn and confused about balancing socialisation verses waiting for vaccinations. My pup has recieved some shots at 6 weeks (he will be 9 weeks on pickup) and the breeder recommends not to socialise until he recieves all of them. However I am very concious and determined that he shall be properly socialised around people and other dogs and want to start as soon as possible. Is it a case that we have to make a decision between the two or can this be balanced? We have friends with friendly, socialised and calm dogs (all up to date on vaccinations/free from disease etc) and would like to introduce him to them fairly soon after we bring him home. This would be a case of us visiting their homes not taking him to a public place or anything. Would taking him to the shops be ok or not advised (we don't want to baby him and won't be carrying him)? Would it be detrimental to the socialisation process if we wait? I know there probably is a lot of grey areas concerning this, but we just want to ensure we are doing the right thing!

Puppy school from other posts appears to be ok? (Also does anyone know any good ones in the North Shore Sydney area?)

Your comments/suggestions will be most welcome. This is our first dog.

Thank you

Hi Katie P

This traditional socialisation process to allow a pup to run around and interact with other dogs is a bad idea IMHO which leads to poor behaviour in maturity as they find more value in other dogs than they find of you. Socialisation really means for a pup to be aware of other dogs and to ultimately ignore them as the dogs you see barking and jumping at the end of the leash in an uncontrollable state of excitement wanting to play with other dogs is the result of the traditional socialisation people recommend necessary. Puppy socialisation unless strictly supervised can also cause behavioural problems where softer puppies can be dominated by harder and larger puppies resulting in dog to dog or fear aggression in maturity and the list goes on.

Having said that, young pups are vulnerable to disease before immunity kicks in and personally, I never allow a pup until 2 weeks after their 12 week shot to wander around anywhere other than my backyard and the pups health IMHO has far more importance than socialisation procesess that expose a pup to potential risks.

[Nekhbet]

Having said that, young pups are vulnerable to disease before immunity kicks in and personally, I never allow a pup until 2 weeks after their 12 week shot to wander around anywhere other than my backyard and the pups health IMHO has far more importance than socialisation procesess that expose a pup to potential risks

I dont agree at all. Pups need exposure to the world and to learn about it while they're still in critical period not after when they're crazy loony unsocialised little terrors.

You have a small maltese. Put it in a carry bag and carry it around when you go out, take it on car trips etc.

Socialisation is VERY important and keeping a dog locked in the backyard until 12 weeks of age is ridiculous. Just be smart. Until the second vacc dont let strange people go touching it, putting it under the noses of dogs that you dont know or go to dog club/dog beaches all the time etc. Simply let people know 'sorry we'd love you to have a pat but he's not immunised enough' or offer them some alcohol hand sanitiser.

I'm in the process of helping socialise some pups, they were out of the house before 8 weeks of age, going everywhere in the car etc. Both are healthy and happy but we're smart about who we let touch and where they go.

[wuffles]

This traditional socialisation process to allow a pup to run around and interact with other dogs is a bad idea IMHO which leads to poor behaviour in maturity as they find more value in other dogs than they find of you.

My young dog has been extensively socialised since a puppy. She loves other dogs and has wonderful social skills. But she values me more than she values other dogs. I've trained a strong recall and she works off leash around other dogs in obedience classes with no problems. IMO it's a big personal choice here and it depends what is important to you, and how much work you are willing to put in. For some (especially those planning on doing dog sports) it is important that their dogs ignore other dogs so they might do what you are suggesting. For others, they want a balance... I wanted my girl to enjoy running and playing with other dogs and to be able to handle any situation thrown at her, from off leash dogs rushing up to us, big dominant dogs, rough dogs, timid dogs, snappy dogs... I also wanted her to be able to work off leash around other dogs for obedience and agility... so I socialised the heck out of her as safely as possible and she has turned out just how I wanted :D

My girl arrived home at 12 weeks, and at 12 weeks I was taking her for walks around the block and to the shops (I did carry her most of the time at the shops). She also went to puppy preschool before fully vaccinated. We also visited a few friends with full vaccinated dogs. Those were the risks I was willing to take. We also have a large, calm, older dog so that helped. I think it's ok to carry puppies when they are vulnerable babies, you can implement the no babying rule once they're not babies anymore With such a little breed you will really have to protect him from bad experiences... so dog parks are probably a bad idea. If you go to puppy preschool make sure he is not subjected to bullying or boisterous play from the bigger puppies.

Good luck with your little one!

[Miranda]

I dont agree at all. Pups need exposure to the world and to learn about it while they're still in critical period not after when they're crazy loony unsocialised little terrors.

You have a small maltese. Put it in a carry bag and carry it around when you go out, take it on car trips etc.

Socialisation is VERY important and keeping a dog locked in the backyard until 12 weeks of age is ridiculous. Just be smart. Until the second vacc dont let strange people go touching it, putting it under the noses of dogs that you dont know or go to dog club/dog beaches all the time etc. Simply let people know 'sorry we'd love you to have a pat but he's not immunised enough' or offer them some alcohol hand sanitiser.

I'm in the process of helping socialise some pups, they were out of the house before 8 weeks of age, going everywhere in the car etc. Both are healthy and happy but we're smart about who we let touch and where they go.

Nekhbet, I absolutely agree with your post.

[Stitch]

This is always a BIG question for new puppy owners and one that I did quite a bit of research on so I could advise my puppy buyers correctly.

It is a balancing act - don't take the puppy to high useage areas frequented by many dogs. Restrict it from walking on ground outside your property so that it has less opportunity to smell or walk in areas that dogs that might not be immunised have walked, urinated or pooed in.

Take it with you so that it can see & hear the outside world but try not to let people touch the dog too much until it has had its full immunisation.

Keep taking the dog out with you once it has had all its immunisations, take it to puppy preschool but don't let it get bullied by other puppies if it is too frightened. I have seen some puppies though that were very timid at the start of the puppy preschool course absolutely blossom, and by the end of the course they are bossing the big dogs around. You just have to watch out for the bully of the class, and there usually is one. I like to see the class broken up into two sections - big breed or older puppies and small breed or timid puppies. Never be frightened to withdraw your pup from any activity that you consider may be damaging its temperament but don't be too precious.

Good Luck!!

[ravenau1]

We got our puppy last Thursday and this is an issue that we put a lot of thought into. What we do, and will be doing, is taking her out of the house at least once per day. We go for a car ride, and a walk. During our walk, wherever it may be, she is carried and not allowed on the ground but she gets to see all the passing people/dogs/cars etc, hear all the sounds and smell all the smells. On Sunday we started at a good, well managed puppy preschool and that was great, very useful for her to be able to interact with the other dogs, even if at this stage she hangs back and doesn't want to play.

It is a balancing act, for sure, but for us the problems of an unsocialised puppy outweighed the risk of disease.

[luvsdogs]

Socialise, socialise, socialise with caution as already mentioned. You want a dog you can take anywhere with you & not one that has to be left at home due to unwanted behaviour.

A good dog trainer -

http://www.getsmartdogs.com.au/Classes.html

[whiskedaway]

Our Husky was 10 weeks when we got her and we decided that socialisation was more important than the risk of disease. We took Akira to friend's houses to meet them and their adult fully-vaccinated dogs, and for us who had a problem child (that is, scared of all adult humans thanks to her lack of socialisation before we got her) it was invaluable. She wasn't allowed to walk anywhere but because she was small enough at the time she got carried around.

We will do the exact same thing with Halo when we get her in January. I feel that socialisation is so important, and she'll be introduced to as many different things as possible - except chickens. We learnt that lesson with Akira!

Edited December 12, 2010 by whiskedaway

[Guest Tess32]

Just carry the pup. I carried my Collie everywhere until he was fully covered. He went to train stations, cafes, markets etc, and trust me, he's heavier than a little maltese!

They don't need to be on the ground, to be socialised.

[Katie P]

Thank you very much everyone, I appreciate hearing the various suggestions. I think I will carry him around to expose him to more things then.....I was just concerned about letting him 'be a dog' and not babying him too much! I will definately take what you all mentioned into consideration as I have younger relatives (children) who visit our house often and we will definately attend puppy classes. We are very reluclant to take him to dog parks anyway especially due to his size let alone before vaccinations so that wont be an issue!

It all makes more sense now, thanks all!

[merijigs]

Just another thought - if you have friends whose dogs are fully vaccinated, then ask them to come over to your house to visit. This will also help to minimise exposure to environmental germs.

[Nekhbet]

I dont like dog parks especially for tiny breeds. I wont take any dog in my care to a dog park ever and never will.

Dogs do not have to meet every other dog on the planet. It's not entirely natural either, they're pack animals not social butterflies. Socialisation is quality over quantity, you should stick to dogs that you know are friendly and wont cause problems instead of every strangers dog who runs the risk of teaching your dog bad dog body language or having poor body language of its own and ending up in a scuffle.

[Dogsfevr]

I agree with many things BUT people also need to allow the pup to get to now there new owners,you can rush out & socialize all you want but if the pup isn't comfy in its new surroundings then the whole process of doing things to early when the pup isn't ready will also result in failure.

You need to access how well the pup has settled into the new home aswell & take small steps than giant leaps.

I work in the dog industry i have come across many dogs who where rushed to early into socializing & the dogs have suffered for it .

For many it works well & for others it doesn't.

Many read books about this critical stage & that critical stage & get told what they must achieve through the ages but it doesn't apply to every dog/breed & situation.

It isn't a one rule fits all things & as a breeder i now from some of our pups that some have taken a tad longer to adjust & others have been instant ease but we always apply the individual rule here.

If anything as a groomer i would stress importance on teaching it to be brushed correctly from day 1 & to enjoy being groomed because the Malts have to be the worst for being nasty when not trained to be brushed & then brought in as matted messes .

As your breeder how to brush & the correct tools & also ask there opinion of what they find works well with the breed for socializing because i now in our varying breeds the same rules don't apply

[abed]

Having said that, young pups are vulnerable to disease before immunity kicks in and personally, I never allow a pup until 2 weeks after their 12 week shot to wander around anywhere other than my backyard and the pups health IMHO has far more importance than socialisation procesess that expose a pup to potential risks

I dont agree at all. Pups need exposure to the world and to learn about it while they're still in critical period not after when they're crazy loony unsocialised little terrors.

You have a small maltese. Put it in a carry bag and carry it around when you go out, take it on car trips etc.

Socialisation is VERY important and keeping a dog locked in the backyard until 12 weeks of age is ridiculous. Just be smart. Until the second vacc dont let strange people go touching it, putting it under the noses of dogs that you dont know or go to dog club/dog beaches all the time etc. Simply let people know 'sorry we'd love you to have a pat but he's not immunised enough' or offer them some alcohol hand sanitiser.

I'm in the process of helping socialise some pups, they were out of the house before 8 weeks of age, going everywhere in the car etc. Both are healthy and happy but we're smart about who we let touch and where they go.

Are you telling us that you have never done a job where puppies were socialised in the traditional methods, were still little terrors and the owners didn't know why when they did everything by the book Nekhbet???. Most of the "little terrors" I have worked with and some dog aggression issues were socialised in the traditional way from puppy school and are often booted out of their obedience classes for poor behaviour when I get them for retraining. More poorly behaved young dogs have been socialised traditionally than one's that haven't in my experiences and these supposed critical periods IMHO are well over exaggerated.

I still maintain that a pup missing a few weeks of socialisation and kept safe from Parvo in the vulnerable periods where they can catch it easily is a better experience than a puppy crossing the bridge from over enthusiasm for socialisation and exposure to unhealthy elements in the process IMHO

Edited December 14, 2010 by abed

[Nekhbet]

I can tell you critical period is not over exaggerated at all.

some dogs are able to cope with lack of proper socialisation, for others it forms irreperable scars that you simply manage, not fix.

As for being booted out of dog schools, that is more the fact that trainers dont know or dont want to handle the dogs so boot them out. It's not always the owners fault at all.

Socialisation is quality over quantity. The point of it is the dog is exposed to things while young and during this impressionable period you mould it to learn how to deal with these stimuli. So in the case of a pet pup we want it to be easily handled, not worry about traffic, children, common noises etc.

[abed]

I can tell you critical period is not over exaggerated at all.

some dogs are able to cope with lack of proper socialisation, for others it forms irreperable scars that you simply manage, not fix.

As for being booted out of dog schools, that is more the fact that trainers dont know or dont want to handle the dogs so boot them out. It's not always the owners fault at all.

Socialisation is quality over quantity. The point of it is the dog is exposed to things while young and during this impressionable period you mould it to learn how to deal with these stimuli. So in the case of a pet pup we want it to be easily handled, not worry about traffic, children, common noises etc.

Of course, but we are talking socialisation versus disease vulnerability is the OP's predicament and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term. If the dog is that crappy in temperament to need the early socialisation you speak of, that presents another issue doesn't it really???.

[Aidan]

and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term.

Ignore the science at your peril.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

[abed]

and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term.

Ignore the science at your peril.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

Depends who's science you prefer Aidan. The science to best avoid parvo and other life threatening diseases in a small vulnerable pup works best for me

[abed]

and 14 weeks until some confidence from immunisation becomes relevent isn't going to make any difference to the dog long term.

Ignore the science at your peril.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

Depends who's science you prefer Aidan. The science to best avoid parvo and other life threatening diseases in a small vulnerable pup works best for me