Did Any Of You Know ?

[Tralee]

It seems to me that the question is: "Is my half-sister, my sister?"

Most definitely, she is and more adamantly, I am her brother.

But the bottom line, as stated in the preamble, is: "Has the university research been able to substantiate that half-matings compromise the health of the offspring", in the same manner that they were able to conclude sister/brother matings do.

It may be that the recommendation is inclusive of half-mating.

Then how far will they go?

I've got a pair of first cousins.

Edit; doh!

Edited December 12, 2010 by pewithers

[Bulldust]

I am really getting sick of the crap we are getting put through by the canine governing bodies. I have a half brother/sister mating planned in a couple of years and will not be happy if i wont be able to do this. I can just imagine what we'd have to do to get 'pre approval' no doubt it would be near impossible...

My concern is that around 2 years ago I had a meeting with someone who has a fair bit of clout and is very much credible that there was a plan underway for close breeding to be outlawed and made a crimminal offence under POCTA.There is a review of POCTA in May next year in NSW.

Id say the chances of that happening now has definitely risen. Wont matter though its just another law and hardly any of us do it anyway.

;)

[Bulldust]

It seems to me that the question is: "Is my half-sister, my sister?"

Most definitely, she is and more adamantly, I am her brother.

But the bottom line, as stated in the preamble, is: "Has the university research been able to substantiate that half-matings compromise the health of the offspring", in the same manner that they were able to conclude sister/brother matings do.

It may be that the recommendation is inclusive of half-mating.

Then how far will they go?

I've got a pair of first cousins.

Edit; doh!

Dog help us if they go any further than half siblings... next we'll only be allowed to outcross with every mating ;)

[fifi]

pewithers, dogs have many more pairs of Alleles than humans, its not even a comparison. Have you studied canine genetics ?

fifi

[Tralee]

pewithers, dogs have many more pairs of Alleles than humans, its not even a comparison. Have you studied canine genetics ?

fifi

It's OK

B.App.Sc., B.Sc., Grad.Dip.Ed., among others.

20 years secondary school teaching of Science and Agriculture.

I'm not against close breeding.

Maybe it could be done with a simple approval procedure.

Something like an adjunct to the Breeders Prefix

Pretty soon, we are not going of be allowed to "think" for ourselves, and education will become redundant.

[nabs]

pewithers, dogs have many more pairs of Alleles than humans, its not even a comparison. Have you studied canine genetics ?

fifi

From reading some of the posts I doubt it.

[angelsun]

Perhaps we should be thankful that at this point, these are the only rules. I know my friend in Sweden can not do a grandfather/grandaughter breeder, uncle/neice etc....

[Bisart Dobes]

Will the MDCA register progeny produced from a half / half mating ??????

[Steve]

The RSPCA push is on for a wider ban - going into grandparents. Ive no doubt that we will be in the same spot as your friend. Canine genetics people including those involved in the research on our pedigrees are not in favour of the introduction of laws to outlaw this.

It seems to me that people have decided that what someone who knew nothing about genetics pushed via PDE - that in breeding caused all these terrible problems - must be right. Yet people who are more educated in genetics including clare wade believe that in breeding has played a very minor role - that its more about selection.

I wonder why it has been forgotten that this is what all breeders of all purebred species do and why we are so quick to announce they are right by changing the regs. No point anyway - Its a done deal.

[Bisart Dobes]

With our breed and tail docking ban we have seen alot of 'ol timer' breeders walk away. These are the breeders who knew about producing a line of dogs - knew about pedigree's and how to breed towards an ultimate pedigree. This is where the dogs who produce come from in our breed.

We have alot of breeders who breed to the latest top winning dog and we have alot who don't believe in line breeding - or who claim they are line breeding but when you look at the pedigree there are no direct tie ups in the first 5 generations, so therefore no real knowledge of the terms they should be using. Therefore in our breed you have some who can take 10 dogs in the ring and they have 5 different types - or even better take 3 dogs in the ring and they are all different - or take 3 siblings in the ring and you couldn't tell they were related !!!

There are some who are concentrating currently on consolidating pedigrees (and we are one) but if these matings are outruled then our breed will be even more of a mishmash than it is now. I wouldn't do first generation matings atm but I would certainly do uncle/ neice and have done grandmother/grandson.

Will this not just bring in more 'doctored' pedigrees - like the VCA asking members how they can stop breeders using 'phantom bitches' - mating the bitch they want and registering the litter under another. Surely those purists will do the matings they want and register the pedigree they have to ?????

Perhaps that move to NZ is closer and more probable than I first thought.

[Steve]

I believe that more than any thing else - anything else it is important to be sure that the registry - their's or ours or anyone's is dead set 100 % true blue .

Without that any decisions a breeder makes which rely on what they know of the dogs and the issues in that pedigree is a wasted effort.In fact if you cant rely on thise things then actually having a stud registry is pointless. Even more pointless if you are profiling the pedigree for things you cant see. Genetic issues, health temperament etc.

I believe that several of the regulations which the state CCs and the ANKC have introduced over the last couple of years have had the potential to erode that integrity far greater than it ever has before.

Honestly how many of us that have been around a while truly believe that miraculously everyone is waiting until they are told the bitch is old enough to mate. How many of us honestly believe that people miraculously stop mating their bitches when they are told they are too old or when a certain number of litters is reached. how many of us believe that people are not having back to back to back to back litters? How many of us dont know why mandatory DNA for parentage would be the last thing some breders would want to see ? How many of us truly believe that everyone will miraculously stop breeding close relatives.

Since this one regulation has been put into place to take effect in July how many of us didnt know you can purchase papers for dogs which dont now or never did exist to cover if you use a related dog? Papers on the black market in Queensland since the regs came in are going for $500 each.

Im not saying these things happen all the time or that most of us arent doing the right thing - even though the right thing is open to debate - but all of these regs dont stop those who were prepared to do these things without concerns for the dogs and it increases the risk of false info being entered on the registry.

That is a much greater threat to the health and welfare of our breeds. If someone is in breeding dogs which are too close we can see that in our pedigrees and make informed choices about whether we choose them for our breeding programs - once that info is compromised - why bother ?

So even though over the last few days we have been accused of not caring about the welfare of our dogs because we leave decisions such as these up to the breeder and havent written them into our codes.

We know that good breeders rarely if ever do these things proven by the study on our pedigrees but Im not doing anything which will make breeeders think they need to tell lies if they do - because that jeopodises the registry integrity and the ability for all breeders who trust that info to make informed decisions.

It might be a good PR exercise for animal rights and those who have no idea of pedigree profiles and why we breed purebred dogs over any others but there are potential consequences which would justify telling those calling for this to piss off about now and stay out of what we dorather than make them think we agree with them.

Try telling a stud cattle breeder close matings are banned and see how far that gets you.

[PomsNZ]

Perhaps that move to NZ is closer and more probable than I first thought.

um its here in nz thats its banned too

[Bisart Dobes]

I believe that more than any thing else - anything else it is important to be sure that the registry - their's or ours or anyone's is dead set 100 % true blue .

Without that any decisions a breeder makes which rely on what they know of the dogs and the issues in that pedigree is a wasted effort.In fact if you cant rely on thise things then actually having a stud registry is pointless. Even more pointless if you are profiling the pedigree for things you cant see. Genetic issues, health temperament etc.

Above all else this integrity should be protected - I was told some years ago when researching pedigree's in our breed 'dont trust that pedigree'. So consequently have stayed away from dogs down from that pedigree. I couldn't believe that someone would actually do that. We have also had dogs with genetic tests falsified in our breed - well these things come out when breeders using such a 'healthy dog' have vWD affected puppies and dogs dead at 18mths to 3 yrs with other breed diseases. Wrong wrong wrong.

I believe that several of the regulations which the state CCs and the ANKC have introduced over the last couple of years have had the potential to erode that integrity far greater than it ever has before.

Honestly how many of us that have been around a while truly believe that miraculously everyone is waiting until they are told the bitch is old enough to mate. How many of us honestly believe that people miraculously stop mating their bitches when they are told they are too old or when a certain number of litters is reached. how many of us believe that people are not having back to back to back to back litters? How many of us dont know why mandatory DNA for parentage would be the last thing some breders would want to see ? How many of us truly believe that everyone will miraculously stop breeding close relatives.

I was being the devils advocate and just throwing it out there . But you can see that it will happen. So what then - you breed with dogs / pedigree's that you know and trust only.

Since this one regulation has been put into place to take effect in July how many of us didnt know you can purchase papers for dogs which dont now or never did exist to cover if you use a related dog? Papers on the black market in Queensland since the regs came in are going for $500 each.

Good lord - really ??? But wouldn't DNA prove otherwise. This is why DNA should be introduced. But then how many pedigree's would be proved to be false now and would those dogs be deregisered ???

Im not saying these things happen all the time or that most of us arent doing the right thing - even though the right thing is open to debate - but all of these regs dont stop those who were prepared to do these things without concerns for the dogs and it increases the risk of false info being entered on the registry.

That is a much greater threat to the health and welfare of our breeds. If someone is in breeding dogs which are too close we can see that in our pedigrees and make informed choices about whether we choose them for our breeding programs - once that info is compromised - why bother ?

So even though over the last few days we have been accused of not caring about the welfare of our dogs because we leave decisions such as these up to the breeder and havent written them into our codes.

We know that good breeders rarely if ever do these things proven by the study on our pedigrees but Im not doing anything which will make breeeders think they need to tell lies if they do - because that jeopodises the registry integrity and the ability for all breeders who trust that info to make informed decisions.

It might be a good PR exercise for animal rights and those who have no idea of pedigree profiles and why we breed purebred dogs over any others but there are potential consequences which would justify telling those calling for this to piss off about now and stay out of what we dorather than make them think we agree with them.

Try telling a stud cattle breeder close matings are banned and see how far that gets you.

[Bisart Dobes]

Perhaps that move to NZ is closer and more probable than I first thought.

um its here in nz thats its banned too

Bugger - well at least we could still dock our babies and not have injuries to tails to deal with.

[Fit for a King]

I have written advice from DQ that 1/2 brother/sister matings are permissable under the new regulations. I would suggest people in other states ask their individual state bodies and get the advice in writing.

Steve - if you know for a fact about these black market papers and you know who has them then why not report them?

[Steve]

I have written advice from DQ that 1/2 brother/sister matings are permissable under the new regulations. I would suggest people in other states ask their individual state bodies and get the advice in writing.

Steve - if you know for a fact about these black market papers and you know who has them then why not report them?

Why not indeed ?

[Fit for a King]

oh I see - no fun in that Steve?

[Bullbreedlover]

Steves quote

Im not saying these things happen all the time or that most of us arent doing the right thing - even though the right thing is open to debate - but all of these regs dont stop those who were prepared to do these things without concerns for the dogs and it increases the risk of false info being entered on the registry.

That is a much greater threat to the health and welfare of our breeds. If someone is in breeding dogs which are too close we can see that in our pedigrees and make informed choices about whether we choose them for our breeding programs - once that info is compromised - why bother ?

So even though over the last few days we have been accused of not caring about the welfare of our dogs because we leave decisions such as these up to the breeder and havent written them into our codes.

We know that good breeders rarely if ever do these things proven by the study on our pedigrees but Im not doing anything which will make breeeders think they need to tell lies if they do - because that jeopodises the registry integrity and the ability for all breeders who trust that info to make informed decisions.

end quote

No the regs may not stop anyone who is prepared to do these things in regards to a byb, but if the regs are there then at least it is a step towards uniting the responsible breeders and educating those whom need it.

Yep and I am one of those ones who are doing the accusing. And no way am I apologising for it.

"Jeopodises the registry integrity". You spouted off in another thread Steve about all your contacts and who you have spoken to etc etc. People have asked "who are these people you have consulted?" and you have not replied. All you have done is list who is on the MBDA Board.

You have told us all about the "Elite" registry. You tell us that there are only good breeders on the MBDA and that everyone else who isnt on there isnt worth knowing or have no valuable knowledge to contribute to the dog society. And you are so wrong.

Just as a thought, How many members does the MBDA have Steve?

You wrote...

I believe that several of the regulations which the state CCs and the ANKC have introduced over the last couple of years have had the potential to erode that integrity far greater than it ever has before.

Honestly how many of us that have been around a while truly believe that miraculously everyone is waiting until they are told the bitch is old enough to mate. How many of us honestly believe that people miraculously stop mating their bitches when they are told they are too old or when a certain number of litters is reached. how many of us believe that people are not having back to back to back to back litters?

end

Those people who are actually in it for the love of their breeds realise the responsibility they have and respect their breeding stock as loved animals and not just for their breeding worth.

Actually Steve with the policies you have just stated, there are many people who are practicing what you are saying.

I know it is probably hard for you to believe

[Steve]

Steves quote

Im not saying these things happen all the time or that most of us arent doing the right thing - even though the right thing is open to debate - but all of these regs dont stop those who were prepared to do these things without concerns for the dogs and it increases the risk of false info being entered on the registry.

That is a much greater threat to the health and welfare of our breeds. If someone is in breeding dogs which are too close we can see that in our pedigrees and make informed choices about whether we choose them for our breeding programs - once that info is compromised - why bother ?

So even though over the last few days we have been accused of not caring about the welfare of our dogs because we leave decisions such as these up to the breeder and havent written them into our codes.

We know that good breeders rarely if ever do these things proven by the study on our pedigrees but Im not doing anything which will make breeeders think they need to tell lies if they do - because that jeopodises the registry integrity and the ability for all breeders who trust that info to make informed decisions.

end quote

No the regs may not stop anyone who is prepared to do these things in regards to a byb, but if the regs are there then at least it is a step towards uniting the responsible breeders and educating those whom need it.

Yep and I am one of those ones who are doing the accusing. And no way am I apologising for it.

"Jeopodises the registry integrity". You spouted off in another thread Steve about all your contacts and who you have spoken to etc etc. People have asked "who are these people you have consulted?" and you have not replied. All you have done is list who is on the MBDA Board.

You have told us all about the "Elite" registry. You tell us that there are only good breeders on the MBDA and that everyone else who isnt on there isnt worth knowing or have no valuable knowledge to contribute to the dog society. And you are so wrong.

Just as a thought, How many members does the MBDA have Steve?

You wrote...

I believe that several of the regulations which the state CCs and the ANKC have introduced over the last couple of years have had the potential to erode that integrity far greater than it ever has before.

Honestly how many of us that have been around a while truly believe that miraculously everyone is waiting until they are told the bitch is old enough to mate. How many of us honestly believe that people miraculously stop mating their bitches when they are told they are too old or when a certain number of litters is reached. how many of us believe that people are not having back to back to back to back litters?

end

Those people who are actually in it for the love of their breeds realise the responsibility they have and respect their breeding stock as loved animals and not just for their breeding worth.

Actually Steve with the policies you have just stated, there are many people who are practicing what you are saying.

I know it is probably hard for you to believe

I have no idea what your problem is stonebridge but I have no interest in playing your games. If I dont aswer your atatcks and accusations its because I am ignoring you.

[Bullbreedlover]

I have no idea what your problem is stonebridge but I have no interest in playing your games. If I dont aswer your atatcks and accusations its because I am ignoring you.

Ignore me all you like Steve, but I DONT play games.

I ask questions and give my opinion.

I may not have the technical jargon at my fingertips like you do. I may have different principles than you do. I may have different beliefs as well. But it doesnt mean I am less of a person than you are.

If you cant or wont answer my questions then so be it.