What Happens If Your Dog Bites Someone When Provoked?

[jacqui835]

I took my dog for his usual afternoon walk today at about 5:30, which consists of a 1/2 hour on lead walk around the neighbourhood and then 1 hour at the off-lead park with his dog friends and then back home, and on the way, decided to quickly grab some things for dinner. I had 3 bags, plus hand bag, so once we got away from all the busy roads and were on my street, I dropped my dogs' lead so it was easier to carry them. He walks at my side anyway, even without a lead, even if other dogs bark at him or try to challenge him, he sees a cat etc. This is probably going to make a lot of people here angry, but this is actually something I often do, just because I often have a lot of bags, and he doesn't behave any differently on or off lead when we're training and when we're just walking down the street. He has perfect recall, will stop (wait) instantly on command (like I mean almost falls over himself), and won't even cross a road when a well-known friend calls him from the other side, unless he's told ok first. I am looking into getting him a backpack, so he can help with the groceries lol.

Anyway, back to the story. Most of the people in my suburb know him well, and he's a very popular dog. But today on the way home, I saw what I assume to be father and daughter walking down the street towards us, man in his late 40's I'd guess, and a 8-10 year old girl. I wasn't phased, and neither was the dog, just kept walking, they looked normal enough. But as we passed, the man, who was well over 6 ft suddenly yelled and tried to kick the dog, yelling at him to get the f* away. My dog has never been yelled at, or had anyone react at him that way, and I think he actually thought the guy wasn't directing it at him, because he moved around him but basically ignored him entirely. The guy started shouting abuse at me though, and I started to get very scared because he was huge and didn't seem rational. He said, "what the f* is that?! It shouldn't be outside in public, get it away etc". It was quite terrible because whilst he was doing this, he put himself between the dog and his daughter, and actually shoved his daughter to the ground. I kept walking away, saying only, "it's a dog, he won't hurt you, calm down," but my dog had by this stage put his hackles up and was watching the man very carefully, still walking at my side though, and the man would not stop shouting, even as we got further away. The daughter had gotten back up and was trying to grab her father by the arm, saying, "daddy please don't, please just leave it" and just kept repeating that, poor thing was nearly crying. She didn't seem scared of the dog at all, or even to really notice him, but I got the impression she had seen her father like this before.

The terrible thing is, my dog would not have been any closer to me on a lead, but when he is on a lead, he reacts differently to people who yell at us or behave strangely, he has growled quite ferociously in the past, and it's pretty scary but had my dog been on a lead and the guy had done that, I don't know what he would have done, but I'm confident it would have been much worse. He is not a dangerous dog, and like, in his whole life, has probably growled at about 3-5 people on the street, and they all seemed drunk and were yelling rude things at us and/or walking towards us but in a not quite right way, and they have always backed off and he has not tried to take it any further, and to be honest, I've have always been happy at the time that he's done what he did. He has also growled at one man off-lead, but this was when a man ran up towards me in the park at night when there was nothing but a fence behind me, and when he saw the dog he ran back the way he came. Point is, when he's on lead, he seems less likely to dismiss acts aimed towards us and perceives them as more threatening. What would have happened if I'd had him on lead, the guy had yelled and tried to kick at us like he did, and the dog had gone for him? I have no idea how to teach a doberman, or just about any breed really to not react at all to someone behaving aggressively towards them and their master, but would he get into trouble for defending me/us?

[luvsdogs]

I would have hated to be in that situation. You would be at fault for not having him on lead in a public place.

This is on my council's website re dog attacks.

http://www.parracity.nsw.gov.au/residents/...hip/dog_attacks

[OSoSwift]

Sounds like you had an eventful afternoon!

Perrsonally I would always hold my dogs lead, that is me I am not prepared to risk not holding it if I am walking anywhere near cars, other people/dogs etc.

If he was on a lead and reacted to someone getting in his face you are less likely to have a problem than if he is either not on a lead or dragging his lead.

OUr laws over here seem to be not quite as bad as yours so I may be a bit off the mark.

My belief is if he is on lead and provoked then you are safe from dangerous dog legislation etc. I have spoken to police officers about this and they have told me I am coorect. You can also use the provocation law if someone unlawfully enters your property.

My dogs (infact all of my dogs) have always been taught "leave it". I have had dogs in my Dobes face trying to pick fights and I have yelled leave it, come, leave it etc and avoided a fight that way. I have also been able to intervene after a scuffly has started and they would alsways back down.

I think teaching a dog leave it is VERY important. Yes he can guard you, but you are the leader and if you say "leave it" then that is what he does, end of story. He may still growl or even bark and have his hackles up but he should never advance his attack or defense if you have withdrawn permission.

I quite liked the fact that my Dobe would defend if required and she even had it on cue, but the "leave it" was taught well before the "guard" command was taught

Edited December 9, 2010 by OSoSwift

[persephone]

Scary

may I suggest you purchase and use one of those fantastic 'hands free' leashes ..that go 'round your waist - I love them, as it leaves you free to carry things and not worry as much.Your boy sounds great to handle

Whilst it is nice to have a 'protector' .. it is also nice to be able to switch it on & off . perhaps get some advice ..as it would be just awful if you were in a confined space, and he did bite

[skip]

What a scary thing to happen. I would have got a bit shakey after that. Pity that poor girl with that bloke.

Your question is what if you are attacked and your dog is on lead when it bites somebody - you at least can argue that the victim was putting himself in harms way to be bitten. Your dog if it was on lead is under your effective control regardless if the dog acts aggressively. While acting a bit agro on lead is not favourable it doesn't mean he is a danger.

But as he is off lead, even if the guy was entirely off the planet (which it seems he was) it is your word against his. And if it is known your dog was off lead and he bit someone it would be very serious.

I understand your dog is really well behaved under most conditions. He sounds better behaved than mine. But some people (my Dad for one) would be scared to pass you in the street. You know your dog is safe but sadly some people are really scared of all dogs, espically big ones.

I sometimes do things with my dogs that in hindsight are not a good idea - I understand about how good he walks but in that case you put his lead over your wrist, carry your shopping and the dog should be heeling beside you with no contact. The fact he heels so well should mean it is easy.

Hope you have a nicer walk tomorrow!

[abed]

Generally if the dog is on leash and bites someone if provoked, you are fairly safe against prosecution. If the dog is off leash you have a major problem at hand.

[jacqui835]

I suppose that's all true, and I always forget that I have a big dog, to me all the other dogs just look tiny lol. I will be keeping him on lead from now on, even on my own street and thanks for the suggestion, a hands-free leash, that sounds great. I was just really worried afterward because I was thinking that if I had been holding his lead, he might not have been able to avoid the kicks, or he may have just attacked the man anyway, and then the guy might have attacked him/me/both of us even more, or had him declared dangerous and taken off me or something.

He does have a 'leave it' command and he's very good about it, I have used that before with the drunk people, dogs trying to lunge at him from their leads etc and he has always obeyed perfectly, barely even a backwards glance. We brought home a new kitten last Saturday and because of his 'leave it' command we have had no problems, despite the fact that given half a chance he would love to chase cats or anything else smaller than him. Thing is today I was so scared of this man that I didn't even think to say that, because I actually thought I was potentially in real danger.

I can't stop thinking about it, and I'm petrified of running into that man again, and the scariest part for me is that I didn't pick it and had no warning. I am used to watching people as we walk down the street, because I am used to some people being scared of him, especially those with kids. So if I ever see anyone appear showing signs of being scared of the dog, staring at him worriedly or trying to move away, grabbing their children closer to them etc, I always grab the dog and tell him to walk behind me, whilst also telling the people that he is very friendly and won't hurt. In the past, people have thanked me for doing this, and I have no problem with it, I know not everyone will see my dog the way I do, and I was prepared for that when I took on a doberman. Thing is with this guy, he showed no signs, was just walking down the street and only briefly looking me and the dog over. The daughter didn't seem to notice the dog either, and you'd think that if she knew her father was phobic of dogs, she would have shown some signs of trying to prevent the response (since she seemed normal, the father I'm just not sure about). It was literally not until we were actually walking past the guy that he suddenly lunged out whilst yelling and tried to kick the dog. It was also weird because then he said, "what the f* is that" because well, it was obviously a dog... And with the daughter on the ground and the man following me for a bit swearing and yelling abuse at me, I just wasn't even thinking about telling the dog to ignore it, I was thinking god I need to get away from this man because he really looks like he might attack me and he's so big.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I suggest you phone a by-laws officer and give a description of the man and the events, before his appearance fades too much from your memory. Write down now his general description and include what he did just so they have it on record.

He may be known to council, it sounds like your dog was lucky the guy didn't actually make contact.

[yarracully]

Generally if the dog is on leash and bites someone if provoked, you are fairly safe against prosecution. If the dog is off leash you have a major problem at hand.

Would have to agree with this. I had a discussion with local authorities on something similar (at the time all hypothetical regarding school kids teasing our dogs on our own property) but the general drift was if the dog was provoked and was defending then a prosecution would not stand. Problem then becomes how can you prove the dog was provoked. Basically it comes down to your word against the idiots. Pity sometimes that dogs can't speak.

[abed]

Jacqui835, when the dog is on leash, they have no escape path being restrained if things get nasty which heightens their defense drive being the reason why the dog will act more hostile on leash than off in a threatening situation. If the dog was ON LEASH and did bite that idiot, it may have been a good lesson for him to rethink his own behaviour towards someone's dog.

[abed]

Generally if the dog is on leash and bites someone if provoked, you are fairly safe against prosecution. If the dog is off leash you have a major problem at hand.

Would have to agree with this. I had a discussion with local authorities on something similar (at the time all hypothetical regarding school kids teasing our dogs on our own property) but the general drift was if the dog was provoked and was defending then a prosecution would not stand. Problem then becomes how can you prove the dog was provoked. Basically it comes down to your word against the idiots. Pity sometimes that dogs can't speak.

When a dog's on leash which is usually 2 metres by regulation, it provides restrained personal space for the dog to habitat which no one needs to encroach upon and getting that close to a restrained dog is provocation in it's self. If you are in a confined space like an allyway or small foot bridge where a leashed dog could reach people that could not escape the range of the leash, it might be a different story if a leashed dog bit someone.

[jacqui835]

Jacqui835, when the dog is on leash, they have no escape path being restrained if things get nasty which heightens their defense drive being the reason why the dog will act more hostile on leash than off in a threatening situation. If the dog was ON LEASH and did bite that idiot, it may have been a good lesson for him to rethink his own behaviour towards someone's dog.

Yeah that makes sense. I have also learned with my dog that he is fine so long as there is room for him to move backwards without reaching me. Once he reaches me, he likes to separate me from the perceived threat, or at least be at my side (I've never seen him go behind me unless ordered to do so), and so the closer to me he is, the more likely he would be to take a stand. Fortunately he has never been interested in trying to start anything, or in problems that are far away from us.

I really don't want my dog to ever have to bite anyone, and although he's a big dog (over 40kg) this man looked way more than double that and so I was really worried he would hurt him. I hope I never see this man again, but if I do and he yells at me or anyone else on the street, I will report him to the police because I don't think it's acceptable for people to make others feel so scared and threatened.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I can't tell you about the owners like you that I have spoken to over the years who lost their dog whilst it was off lead. They'll tell me that the dog was trained, since it wsa a puppy, to walk off the lead and NEVER go across the road, even if it saw someone it knew blah blah. And then one day, the dog was aged 2, 5, 7 or 10 and it suddenly went across the road. It only has to happen once.

Get yourself one of those waist bands with the clip for your dog's lead. Never walk the dog off the lead, ever.

[corrie]

I find carrying a backpack myself keeps me hands free to keep hold of the leash.

That must have been scarey and worrying for you. From what you have posted it sounds like the man was petrifyed and acting irrationally (and aggressively) out of fear.

[Hairy Maclary]

I think it's quite possible that the man you encountered has mental health issues - I wouldn't take his outburst personally.

If this kind of behaviour has got him into trouble in the past he might be known to police - if you do decide to call them they may know who he is. Perhaps he is experiencing some kind of psychosis and would benefit from some help.

At the very least it's a reminder to expect the unexpected when you're out walking, even in your own street - your dog is better off on lead for it's own protection.

[redblazebordeaux]

I personally had the same experience previously and they didn't do anything to my dog, but they found out where i lived and decided to come pass my place when no cars was in the driveaway so they obviously decided to do something stupid..They ended up picking up a stick and provoking my dog (red nose pitbull) and we had a 2mtr fence aswell and they were like stabbing my dog and i saw it from my bedroom so decided to run out..As soon as i opened my front door my dog had jumped onto the fence and started to climb and eventually the guy started to run across the road aswell as my dog...Anyways, my dog ended up attacking this guy (8 stitches on the side of his cheek, 3 stitches on the hands).

The guy took us to court and gave them some lame excuse that he was walking pass my place and my dog attacked him, but for some reason I ended winning the court case and the guy now walks pass my house with a branch lol..

[B-Q]

Thats scary, I always keep my dogs on lead because if something crazy happens like this I want the legal leg to stand on. Buster is DA and very controllable offleash but he never gets off because if another dog runs up to him and he's offleash I have no defence.

I'd suggest maybe clipping the leash to your belt if it doesn't make a difference whether the dog is loose or not, but it will to the law.

As I found out recently, the law is there to protect the stupid people that don't have dog sense not the dogs trying to act like normal dogs. So just make sure you know the laws back to front and follow them to keep your dog safe.

[jacqui835]

I think it's quite possible that the man you encountered has mental health issues - I wouldn't take his outburst personally.

If this kind of behaviour has got him into trouble in the past he might be known to police - if you do decide to call them they may know who he is. Perhaps he is experiencing some kind of psychosis and would benefit from some help.

At the very least it's a reminder to expect the unexpected when you're out walking, even in your own street - your dog is better off on lead for it's own protection.

I'm of this impression also, particularly considering it was as though he was fine with dogs right until he was next to us. My bf said the same thing - that he was probably not all there and likely known to the police already, because unfortunately in my area we do have a bit of that... It was the only place I could find a pet friendly rental in Sydney though so oh well.

But I'll keep him on his leash from now on, I'm not worried about him running off, he looks at me every 5 secs for my reaction to everything, and he's too much of a natural guardian (he's quite different from the other dogs I've had and I could have never had them off-lead, but for eg. I actually fell down a concrete embankment knocking myself out one day on a walk with him back when I lived with my mum, and he ran straight home and got help) but I don't want him to be in trouble for defending me or himself.

Edited December 9, 2010 by jacqui835

[megan_]

People have the right to walk down a street and not encounter off lead dogs.

This man may have been terrified of dogs. Put the dog on a leash. If you have too much shopping, then leave the dog at home.

This man may have been terrified of dogs and may have had no control over how he reacted.

Many of us have been at the recieving end of a growling dog that is "friendly". This man doesn't know your dog from a bar of soap. I don't trust owners when they tell me their dog is friendly either.

You own a large dog and like it or not, MANY people in the community would be scared of it. I would be. Show them that dog owners are considerate and responsible. I only have littlies but I always make way for people, move over so that the dogs can't touch them at the end of their leads and often put them into a sit. People always smile at this and say thanks.

[persephone]

I am sorry you felt afraid ..been there done that.. a few times.It shakes you up.

however, why think of calling the police? The man was not, by your post, attempting to attack you ... he was directing his outburst at your very large off lead dog...he reacted strongly, and tried to protect his little girl. The man was probably scared witless ,and tried to fix things in the only way he knew how....

Yes, it sounded awful, and was loud, and intimidating...but hardly worth getting police involved, IMO.