Your Experiences With The Front Clipping Harness

[Nekhbet]

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Edited December 14, 2010 by Nekhbet

[raineth]

This is not about competition heeling. This is about an owner being capable of handling a large strong dog and understanding its needs.

I just got the impression you thought it was a Dane after reading the above

[sas]

I'm not going to say no to an awesome family because they have trouble picking up correct timing for a check chain or half check in one session.

Wow, sorry but that comment was so rude and uneducated from someone whose meant to be fairly educated in training circles.

I don't think very many foster carers even give training on a training aid/tool for the new families, I do because I think it's important.

What you consider 'basic' others do not. Learning how to Heel a dog is the single hardest thing many dog owners have problems with so I think you need to take a step back with all your training savvy attitude and experience and remember what it's like for someone whose never trained a dog to heel - timing is not something that comes easy to alot of people - just the same as clicker training - it's a timing thing.

How about you go and tell all those clients of yours who come to you to learn to heel their dog to re-home their dog because if they can't even grasp a 'basic' concept they shouldn't have the dog........sounds rather silly doesn't it.

My point was this dog was having trouble being walked. Now since you yourself admitted the owners will have trouble with the ability to walk the dog on a collar I simply said is this the right dog for them?

I'm NOT going to NOT allow a rescue dog I've pulled out of the pound have a home because the new family may have not used the training tool / aid I use and are a bit clumsy with it to start with.

My questioning was of their skill level with this size and power of dog, not check chains in general.

This is not about competition heeling. This is about an owner being capable of handling a large strong dog and understanding its needs. Basic loose leash walking I teach to people in a lesson and I can tell you everyone of every skill level picks it up if taught right. Or why not give them a basic lesson yourself and include enrolement into a training school as part of the deal if the dog is a little bit more difficult then average.

OK I came out a bit abrupt, sorry it's xmas and this time of year causes me great anguish but anyway not your problem. My point is instead of providing something that will not solve the problem of the families low level of training experience, help them get it. Loose leash walking is achievable in a lesson. As for sending a rescue dog to a home where the people can't fully handle it day they pick up the dog - maybe I'm one of the few who has the luxury of saying no when I have an animal I'm rehoming.

There is NO new owner, the dog isn't even available for adoption, I'm actually being pro-active given my previous experience with re-homing foster dogs.

The dog is an 8 kilo puppy, hardly a problem dog, you just decided to run with some bizare scenerio you had on your head.

I'm not having problems walking to puppy in the method I use, however I know many people having problems with timing corrections which is exactly

Yeah you did come across abrupt and franky for a professional trainer your comments were extremely dissapointing.

Include training as part of the deal i.e. pay for it......ok so I charge $300 for a dog and usually they cost me $500, my last foster was re-homed to first time dog owners and I paid for 3 behavioural sessions for them because of this out of my own pocket.

You've got the wrong end of the stick and just run with it.

You really need to slow down and read threads properly because I truely believe you still don't 'get it'.

Edited December 14, 2010 by sas

[sas]

I didnt know the breed she just said the dog was 8kg and a puppy

Can you stop contributing to this thread please.

[sas]

Have you seen this new head harness called the Canny Collar www.cannyco.com.au which controls from behind the head & doesn't ride up into the eyes. There's a review in the latest Dogs NSW Mag written by a Canadian Animal Chiropracter. I am not a fan of head collars but, I quote "This collar is unique in that it actually teaches the dog to walk quietly by the handler. It does so gently - the "reins" control the dog from behind the head, not from under the chin, so it doesn't pull the dogs head sideways, & the soft nose strap can't ride up into the dogs eyes"

Got it today, gave it a go, loved it!

[Nekhbet]

This dog in particular is not responsive to the front clipping harness with a range of different methods tried, so we'll just stick with the half check martingale and just spend more time with the new family teaching timing of corrections and so forth.

sorry this in particular must have swayed my thoughts that this pup not reacting to your expectations on a harness was off to a new home oh well no more from me.

[charley101]

I just want to say there are a few different types of front connection harnesses some are better than others we use the sense-ible at our dog club and i have seen loads and loads of big or small dogs instantly reduce the amount they pull. At the end of the day the only way to get a dog to stop pulling on a loose leach is training it to not pull but in my view for a inexperienced owner a front connection fitted correctly is a lot safer and kinder than a choke chain (but then i dont like choke chains anyway). Please dont shout at me for having a view

[Cosmolo]

Alot of people find timing difficult IME. When a rescue dog goes to a new home, walking can be a great way to bond- provided the dog isn't dragging them down the street. For that reason I think its a great thing to (ideally for each dog as they are all different) find the piece of equipment that makes walking the easiest for a new owner- to start with. Training takes time and like dogs, not all people learn certain concepts as quickly as others.

But if they have the opportunity to bond with and enjoy the dog, i find they are then much more likely to persist with teething problems that often occur in the first few months in a new home. Reasonable (not perfect) walking aids this process significantly IMO.

[silentchild]

I like the Front Walking Harness because it gives me a certain degree of control over my dog - and I need it especially as I am a petite chick with a large 35+kg dog! My dog is a chronic puller and we have tried almost everything... check chain, being a tree, going in the opposite direction, clicker training, martingales etc.. you name it we've tried it. With the front walking harness she still pulls at an angle, much like your dog Sas I believe, but she is not able to pull as much, I can easily pull her back when needed. The next step I think we will see a trainer because although she is starting to walk quite nicely with the front clip harness, when she sees another dog / bike / cat / bird / dust particle she will still pull with all her might and no strength of any miraculous harness may be able to keep me from being dragged down the street with my nose in the pavement!

[NaturallyWild]

Regarding the blackdog front attachment harness, I believe they have been modified slightly not too long ago. I think they have slightly shortened the front section because there have been more people with issues with it still being too loose even at its shortest. I'm not really a fan of the description supplied of how to use the harness though. I do however prefer this harness in general because you can easily adjust the side connectors (for the front section) and slide them further up so the front section sits near the top of the chest and not at the elbows which can create physical concerns for me. Unfortunately there is not yet a single harness that fits every dogs shape perfectly (particularly for the different TTouch purposes)

Regarding technique to use for them (specifically TTouch ideas), it is more about reducing the opposition you provide and helping them learn to move in balance. It's hard to simply explain the ideas compared to showing it because it sounds crazy sometimes - maybe think martial arts and how they influence larger weights/strengths.

The less you pull the less they pull (physics) and the more you are balanced the more they are balanced.

Having the two points of contact will actually allow you to influence their balance more subtly.

As mentioned earlier, more of an upwards lift (more subtle than you think - not trying to actually take them off the ground) can help them slow, but if you allow too much slack whilst they are still learning to move in balance they are likely to get infront of you and you end up pulling backwards. You can also alternate some of the pressure applied to each leash connector (where blackdog got their directions from I think), but still subtle.

If your pulling backward the dogs can still figure out how to pull forwards even though there is a front connector (just like dogs in head halters can). If you do get forward pulling, the idea is to try and meet that pressure then melt (soften in your hands/arms/body) which will often have the dog following this and returning to balance in which they either slow or stop.

For more difficulty dogs (and owners who struggle about the opposition ideas/techniques) I will often use the leash connected to the leash as a stopping/slowing point (meet the pulling pressure) and then use the front connected leash to guide them away by coming as far forward and then out to the side which will far more easily influence their direction. This also has the benefit of not getting the dog spinning around suddenly or continuing to pull ahead (often at an angle) because of the opposition we are providing. This idea would be the same as I would mention to someone with a head halter having one connection to a collar and another to the halter, but I don't recommend them often because of stress to the neck.

It is important to allow the leash (at both connectors)

Cheers

[sas]

LOL I didn't understand any of that.

I'm using the Canny Collar at the moment and have retired the front clipping harness as it's not a suitable tool for this particular dog.

[sheena]

LOL I didn't understand any of that.

I'm using the Canny Collar at the moment and have retired the front clipping harness as it's not a suitable tool for this particular dog.

How's it going

[sas]

LOL I didn't understand any of that.

I'm using the Canny Collar at the moment and have retired the front clipping harness as it's not a suitable tool for this particular dog.

How's it going

I really like the design, it doesn't go anywhere near the eyes.

She got a bit scared yesterday on her walked and pulled forwarded to get away from the scary thing but was very controlable, I'm using food based training with high frequency rewards and she's doing great.

I'm happy with it for this particular dog.

[abed]

Alot of people find timing difficult IME. When a rescue dog goes to a new home, walking can be a great way to bond- provided the dog isn't dragging them down the street. For that reason I think its a great thing to (ideally for each dog as they are all different) find the piece of equipment that makes walking the easiest for a new owner- to start with. Training takes time and like dogs, not all people learn certain concepts as quickly as others.

But if they have the opportunity to bond with and enjoy the dog, i find they are then much more likely to persist with teething problems that often occur in the first few months in a new home. Reasonable (not perfect) walking aids this process significantly IMO.

I don't agree with your concept Cosmolo although I understand the angle you are coming from, but in my way of thinking from a training perspective it's wrong. Walking can be a great way to bond with a new dog providing the dog has some handler focus, if not, I see it as more conflict with a distracted dog interested in everything but the owner who is restraining the dog physically to prevent the dog rewarding itself by doing it's own thing. The owner gets angry because the dog won't respond and the dog misbehaves more to achieve it's goals, just a poor scenario that you see daily on the average suburban street.

Some inexperienced owners do have trouble with timing which is true, but as a trainer I see the priority is to teach them timing and how it's done effectively because people are not as stupid as some trainers like to think they are, sure they may struggle initially, but in one lesson a good trainer should be able to teach the basics in loose leash walking and provide some education to make a difference IMHO. If a rescue dog has limited training especially a big dog all over the place, I will often use a prong collar straight up with treat rewards, handle the dog myself with the owner along side me for the dog to learn some basics which most learn quickly, dog and owner. I don't see that using a management contraption teaches anything of value long term and definitely doesn't teach a new dog owner how to train the required behaviours wanted of a general pet.

Most pet owners want the same thing, a loose leash walk and a recall generally being the highest priority and working towards that goal from a training approach IMHO is what we should be working towards and the rest is of secondary importance.

[Cosmolo]

But thats precisely the scenario i am trying to avoid for a new owner Abed. Using a management tool 'to start with' is not a bad thing provided it actually aids the owner and does not negatively impact the dog- hence my preference in these situations for Sensible harnesses rather than headcollars. 90% of my clients would just about pass out if i showed them a prong collar (although i don't have an issue with them) AND they are not legal for use in Victoria anyway.

I don't think my clients are stupid AT ALL- i just recognise that timing doesn't come naturally to all people and while someone is learning it, an aid which makes walking easier can be a good thing. If training aids weren't important why would you need a prong collar at all? It might be for a week, it might be for a month- that varies depending on the person.

At an animal shelter i work with, the return rate is higher than i'd like and a common reason for the returns is that they couldn't walk the dog. So they didn't walk the dog and then other behaviours worsened. I agree that one lesson makes a big difference. But- they may adopt the dog one week and not see a trainer for 1-6 weeks- what should they do during that time?

I agree with you regarding what most pet owners once. But i disagree that management doesn't have a role to play in some cases. Obviously i don't believe i am 'wrong' and neither do my clients- we use what works for them and the dog.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Cosmolo

[sas]

Alot of people find timing difficult IME. When a rescue dog goes to a new home, walking can be a great way to bond- provided the dog isn't dragging them down the street. For that reason I think its a great thing to (ideally for each dog as they are all different) find the piece of equipment that makes walking the easiest for a new owner- to start with. Training takes time and like dogs, not all people learn certain concepts as quickly as others.

But if they have the opportunity to bond with and enjoy the dog, i find they are then much more likely to persist with teething problems that often occur in the first few months in a new home. Reasonable (not perfect) walking aids this process significantly IMO.

I don't agree with your concept Cosmolo although I understand the angle you are coming from, but in my way of thinking from a training perspective it's wrong. Walking can be a great way to bond with a new dog providing the dog has some handler focus, if not, I see it as more conflict with a distracted dog interested in everything but the owner who is restraining the dog physically to prevent the dog rewarding itself by doing it's own thing. The owner gets angry because the dog won't respond and the dog misbehaves more to achieve it's goals, just a poor scenario that you see daily on the average suburban street.

Some inexperienced owners do have trouble with timing which is true, but as a trainer I see the priority is to teach them timing and how it's done effectively because people are not as stupid as some trainers like to think they are, sure they may struggle initially, but in one lesson a good trainer should be able to teach the basics in loose leash walking and provide some education to make a difference IMHO. If a rescue dog has limited training especially a big dog all over the place, I will often use a prong collar straight up with treat rewards, handle the dog myself with the owner along side me for the dog to learn some basics which most learn quickly, dog and owner. I don't see that using a management contraption teaches anything of value long term and definitely doesn't teach a new dog owner how to train the required behaviours wanted of a general pet.

Most pet owners want the same thing, a loose leash walk and a recall generally being the highest priority and working towards that goal from a training approach IMHO is what we should be working towards and the rest is of secondary importance.

I'm a supporter of prong collars however I can not re-home a foster dog with one and I don't believe they are suited to all dogs, a very good trainer said to me, a dog chooses its' collar, start on a flat and then progress up until you come to the tool that works best for that dog.

So, how about you do your thing and I'll do mine.

You've actually rail roaded my thread and I politely ask you to step away from it now.

[Cosmolo]

Sorry sas.

[Robbi]

I had never seen or heard of a front clipping harness until I brought home Abbie from Canterbury pound. All my dogs had walked nicely on martingale collars or my larger dogs on slip collars, then I had to change my methods and find a way to stop a steam train puller like I had never experienced.

After trying a few different collars/harnesses I was told about front connecting harnesses by my dog trainer and I now love them, I enjoy my walks with Abbie without constantly having to correct her and have my arm pulled out of its socket and the results were almost instant, I would certainly give them a try with other dogs in the future

[sas]

Sorry sas.

Your comments are fine and from a trainer who uses the tool very worthwhile to hear and relevant to the topic.

[abed]

Alot of people find timing difficult IME. When a rescue dog goes to a new home, walking can be a great way to bond- provided the dog isn't dragging them down the street. For that reason I think its a great thing to (ideally for each dog as they are all different) find the piece of equipment that makes walking the easiest for a new owner- to start with. Training takes time and like dogs, not all people learn certain concepts as quickly as others.

But if they have the opportunity to bond with and enjoy the dog, i find they are then much more likely to persist with teething problems that often occur in the first few months in a new home. Reasonable (not perfect) walking aids this process significantly IMO.

I don't agree with your concept Cosmolo although I understand the angle you are coming from, but in my way of thinking from a training perspective it's wrong. Walking can be a great way to bond with a new dog providing the dog has some handler focus, if not, I see it as more conflict with a distracted dog interested in everything but the owner who is restraining the dog physically to prevent the dog rewarding itself by doing it's own thing. The owner gets angry because the dog won't respond and the dog misbehaves more to achieve it's goals, just a poor scenario that you see daily on the average suburban street.

Some inexperienced owners do have trouble with timing which is true, but as a trainer I see the priority is to teach them timing and how it's done effectively because people are not as stupid as some trainers like to think they are, sure they may struggle initially, but in one lesson a good trainer should be able to teach the basics in loose leash walking and provide some education to make a difference IMHO. If a rescue dog has limited training especially a big dog all over the place, I will often use a prong collar straight up with treat rewards, handle the dog myself with the owner along side me for the dog to learn some basics which most learn quickly, dog and owner. I don't see that using a management contraption teaches anything of value long term and definitely doesn't teach a new dog owner how to train the required behaviours wanted of a general pet.

Most pet owners want the same thing, a loose leash walk and a recall generally being the highest priority and working towards that goal from a training approach IMHO is what we should be working towards and the rest is of secondary importance.

I'm a supporter of prong collars however I can not re-home a foster dog with one and I don't believe they are suited to all dogs, a very good trainer said to me, a dog chooses its' collar, start on a flat and then progress up until you come to the tool that works best for that dog.

So, how about you do your thing and I'll do mine.

You've actually rail roaded my thread and I politely ask you to step away from it now.

Oh please sas, I haven't railroaded your thread at all. Like Nekhbet, I have provided another angle on the situation to consider, you don't like that angle and have told us both now to nick off I have used the front clipping harness and IMHO it's a useless piece of equipment that manages behaviour and doesn't teach either the owner or the dog anything of value. That is my experience with it which is what your thread asks for.