Judge's Behaviour On Video?

[Sheridan]

Thankyou ReadySetGo

I think I live on the same planet as the two dozen people who rallied behind me, against the judges, or if you like, in support of my dog.

Including the multi-breed judge from Broken Hill.

This planet would be a better place if people could accept other people's point of view, and encourage others not to be judgmental and dictatorial.

Confuscius said: In order to recognise an honest person, one must first themself be honest.

What this means is: if something doesn't 'ring' fair and honest, from your own experience of fairness and honesty, them more probably than not. It's not.

My dogs and I have been vindicated. But it's not forgotten. I paid the bills for the animal behaviourists, legal counsel, and travel to Sydney.

You had fear aggressive dogs with problems long before that event, did you not ?

Doesn't mean something didn't happen. It also doesn't mean that because it's never happened to you that it hasn't happened to someone else. People ought not to assume that others are lying because they haven't experienced it.

[Wazzat Xolo]

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what interesting comments this thread has bought about!

[Tralee]

Hey Staranais

Many people trust, and expect Judges to set an example for all those who are in effect, putting their faith in them to lead and teach.

This is especially true of people new to showing and just starting out.

Some Judges not only think that it's OK but return home and brag about their 'cruelty' to other breeders.

You had fear aggressive dogs with problems long before that event, did you not ?

Thanks ReadySetGo

The history of Arawn Maremma Sheepdogs, prior to Dareton was: One Maremma sheepdog bitch: Australian Champion Allarme Arctic Gem, and one puppy dog: Schaferden Celtic Sun.

Arctic Gem does not have, and never has had, even a fear aggressive flea. And Celtic Sun was just a puppy, shown successfully at Silver City and also Gunnedah I think.

Just a puppy. What a disgrace!

I stand by the evidence. The Judges bragged about their cruelty to another breeder, and well you know people, they just had to ring the Breeders and try to condemn their dogs.

I began my comments in this thread with the observation that it is contingent on Judges to do more than just judge and it is implacably undeniable that they must not do the other.

This pair of creeps were caught. Let it be on there heads.

I reiterate my point. Conduct at Dog Shows, from my point of view, still has a long way to go.

Edited December 5, 2010 by pewithers

[Gayle.]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

[WreckitWhippet]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

It teaches a puppy to stand still on a table and not to back up. I've never tipped on forwards, as I want mine to lean into themselves. I teach puppies to settle on the table as 6-8 week olds using the method of rocking them. Sometimes I will let the back legs drop off as they get a bit older, maybe a couple of times.

Done properly it's not cruel and there's certainly no allowing the dog to hang of the table, shaking it in the manner of the vidoe or man handling the animal in such a rough way around the throat and rear end.

The majority of my training for my dogs is positive but I will also use other methods where appropriate. All of my dogs are enthusiastic about getting on the table and have learnt that it's a nice place to be, they stack, stand still and are animated.

That judge was completely OTT and had no right to handle and exhibitors dog in such a way.

[brightonrock]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

I completely agree. It is revolting to think this used as a "training" method. Also it is absolutely unnecessary. What on earth is wrong with using treats to get the pup to love all training ? In the case of table training use the treat to "walk" the puppy a step or two.

[Erny]

Did the pup try to lean to the end of the table, anyway? All I could see that seemed to be the catalyst to the Judge reacting was the pup not standing as square as the Judge would have liked.

[WreckitWhippet]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

I completely agree. It is revolting to think this used as a "training" method. Also it is absolutely unnecessary. What on earth is wrong with using treats to get the pup to love all training ? In the case of table training use the treat to "walk" the puppy a step or two.

Each to their own. I use a range of training methods, it's not 100% positive all the time.

My dogs all love training and they'll turn themselves inside out for me. The current show team has all had a some stage recieved a reprimand, a rocking action or a check from a check chain.

There is a huge difference between picking a pup up and rocking it backwards and forwards a couple of times, when compared to what that judge did, the ferocity left me shaking my head

[Rebanne]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

I completely agree. It is revolting to think this used as a "training" method. Also it is absolutely unnecessary. What on earth is wrong with using treats to get the pup to love all training ? In the case of table training use the treat to "walk" the puppy a step or two.

They are not thrown off the table nor do they fall off the table. They are just taught consequences for their actions, ie stepping backwards.

[brightonrock]

Why would you tip a little dog off a table? Frontwards or backwards?

I completely agree. It is revolting to think this used as a "training" method. Also it is absolutely unnecessary. What on earth is wrong with using treats to get the pup to love all training ? In the case of table training use the treat to "walk" the puppy a step or two.

Each to their own. I use a range of training methods, it's not 100% positive all the time.

My dogs all love training and they'll turn themselves inside out for me. The current show team has all had a some stage recieved a reprimand, a rocking action or a check from a check chain.

There is a huge difference between picking a pup up and rocking it backwards and forwards a couple of times, when compared to what that judge did, the ferocity left me shaking my head

Yes, the judge was violent, as if she just hated that dog. It looked like she was wringing it's neck.

I know what you mean, you want the dog/pup to pay attention but I have seen the rocking motion, and of course the check chain, formerly called a choke chain used very badly by cranky people.

I could never use or condone these methods even when used with "care".

[kobblyness]

Disgusting. Go a bit easy on the owner, she probably froze in horror. I had a so called "dog trainer" you know the people you think you can trust scruff my 12 week old puppy at a vet run puppy preschool. She picked him up off the floor by the scruff of his neck and when he didn't go all floppy and submissive she shook him, blew in his face and was surprised when he nipped at her chin, she then flipped him on his back where he wee'd upon himself. It happened so fast and I was dumbfounded, I felt like absolute shit for days after and still get upset when I think about it. Yes I too thought my first reaction would be to go in and grab the dog, but the shock at seeing something like that unfold and how quickly to happens is a different thing. Never again will anyone handle one of my dogs. I was at the vets first thing the next morning and complained about the training methods and was phoned by the owner of the puppy preschool business to bring my dog to her so she could meet him, a big fat NO on my part. I took him to the school I should have taken him to in the first place and thankfully there was no lasting damage done to him. Can't say the same for myself though

[Sheridan]

Disgusting. Go a bit easy on the owner, she probably froze in horror. I had a so called "dog trainer" you know the people you think you can trust scruff my 12 week old puppy at a vet run puppy preschool. She picked him up off the floor by the scruff of his neck and when he didn't go all floppy and submissive she shook him, blew in his face and was surprised when he nipped at her chin, she then flipped him on his back where he wee'd upon himself. It happened so fast and I was dumbfounded, I felt like absolute shit for days after and still get upset when I think about it. Yes I too thought my first reaction would be to go in and grab the dog, but the shock at seeing something like that unfold and how quickly to happens is a different thing. Never again will anyone handle one of my dogs. I was at the vets first thing the next morning and complained about the training methods and was phoned by the owner of the puppy preschool business to bring my dog to her so she could meet him, a big fat NO on my part. I took him to the school I should have taken him to in the first place and thankfully there was no lasting damage done to him. Can't say the same for myself though

I had a bad experience at puppyschool with my first wheaten. I found somewhere else to take him and got a refund.

[*Bones*]

I could be mistaken, but it appeared to me that the judge had a disgusted look on her face as soon as she saw the dog would not complete it's out and back.

I too felt sick watching this. Sure it is possible that it may not have been as awful for the dog as it appears to me, but it is not the point. Judges should not do any training of exhibitors' dogs in the ring. Ihave seen and know of plenty of dogs that have been put off showing owing to judges over zealous handling... mind you none of it was as bad as this.

Training? I have never seen training like that. Have you?

Whatever she was attempting to do, what she was doing was abuse - she pulled the dog off the table times, she had it by the neck shaking its liver loose -the pup was very upset. I thought it ran out very well, considering. Strange that it wouldn't gait back to the judge

Poor competitor had no idea what to do ... should have poked the judges eye out. Wonder what the penalty for that is? More experienced competitors would have, this one was not so experienced.

There is visual proof. The complaint has been lodged. The licence will be revoked. The video was taken because visual proof was necessary to have the licence revoked.

A less experienced person would care, and the way they would show it, is to stop showing their dogs

There is no proof otherwise. However that was one crap judge amongst good ones. Why should anyone give up with a promising judge because they found a crap judge.

Show dog world - is horrified. The video was sent around overseas, and now in Australia.

No, I have not seen training done like this before, but then I do not show Toy Breeds.

Please note, when I used the term "training" I did so on reflection of someone elses comment that went something along the lines of ..... that the handler was receiving free and excellent training from this judge.

I use the term "training" very loosely in my previous post and was in no way condoning the judges actions, as you would see by my post.

Hi Dyzney - I know what you were saying. That was NOT training, which we both pointed out. I may not have been clear in my first post, sorry.

Pulling table dogs off the table is a very bad idea, although many do it because their peers do it.

[SpikesPuppy]

I have no issue with tipping the dog off the table (although I prefer to drop the back legs - have never done the front but know people who do)

What do you mean ?

Justso you don't think im ignoring you- the replies RSG and Rebanne made to yourself and GayleK pretty much sum up my feelings.

Most people will not do it as dramatically or aggressively as the judge in the video.

It's a very effective training method for young pups. I personally have found using food treats results in a lazy stack as well as needing to have bait in front of the dog to get it to move forward.

The rocking and dropping the back legs (most puppies will squirm and wiggle their bodies during this for kisses!) encourages the dog to walk itself into a strong forward reaching stack without the aid of bait under it's nose.

[poochmad]

OMG. The way she twisted the pup's neck and physically forced her around is revolting. I can't believe the owner didn't defend her pup and I am not suprised the little thing wouldn't go back to her. I thought the pup's behaviour was amazing, what a lovely little dog. I hope that this hasn't affected its temperament.

[kobblyness]

OMG. The way she twisted the pup's neck and physically forced her around is revolting. I can't believe the owner didn't defend her pup and I am not suprised the little thing wouldn't go back to her. I thought the pup's behaviour was amazing, what a lovely little dog. I hope that this hasn't affected its temperament.

Have no doubt, the owner is probably sick with what has happened to her dog. It took less than a minute for the Judge to do that and the Judge is someone people should be able to trust with their dogs

ETA I should clarify, A Judge is in a position of trust.

Edited December 5, 2010 by kobblyness

[becks]

The spanish exhibitors all seem to be rallying in support of this judge, saying the video is edited to make it look worse and that it is a 'dirty trick campaign' against her.

[brightonrock]

I have no issue with tipping the dog off the table (although I prefer to drop the back legs - have never done the front but know people who do)

What do you mean ?

Justso you don't think im ignoring you- the replies RSG and Rebanne made to yourself and GayleK pretty much sum up my feelings.

Most people will not do it as dramatically or aggressively as the judge in the video.

It's a very effective training method for young pups. I personally have found using food treats results in a lazy stack as well as needing to have bait in front of the dog to get it to move forward.

The rocking and dropping the back legs (most puppies will squirm and wiggle their bodies during this for kisses!) encourages the dog to walk itself into a strong forward reaching stack without the aid of bait under it's nose.

Poor Puppies

[:ange:]

The spanish exhibitors all seem to be rallying in support of this judge, saying the video is edited to make it look worse and that it is a 'dirty trick campaign' against her.

I think the video is what it is. Disgusting.

[Rebanne]

Poor Puppies

maybe you should stop being so judgemental and wait until you see how it is done, properly, than you can make an informed decision.