Rehabilitating An Aggressive Dog

[Aidan]

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition.

That I agree with. What if we can teach a dog that a calm reaction reduces stress instead?

[Staranais]

That's a good point and ideally true, but given the road to rehabilitation is a long one, unless you can provide absolute controlled conditions at all times to train the dog reducing the reactive distances to raise the aggression threshhold, at some stage in reality I suppose is the term for it, the dog will light up in aggression, maybe an off leash dog running into the training area, a person with a dog popping up around a corner on a casual walk whatever, but it will happen, and dealing with that situation when it does I think is an important part of the process.

I think that is a very good point. No matter what techniques are used to reduce aggression, there needs to be a system in place for dealing with the unexpected situation without setting the training back weeks. Just from my experience with my own very DA dog, I think reducing aggression using pure desensitisation requires a trainer who is very skilled in reading dog body language & manipulating critical distances, and a very controlled environment.

I also think aggression would never be "cured" unless the dog learns a new emotional reaction to seeing other dogs or seeing people. Just controlling the behaviours the dog exhibits (through punishing the aggression or rewarding alternative behaviours really heavily e.g. working in drive around other dogs) is IMO only management. It teaches the dog self control or it distracts it, but the desire behind the fighting behaviour still remains.

[raineth]

That's a good point and ideally true, but given the road to rehabilitation is a long one, unless you can provide absolute controlled conditions at all times to train the dog reducing the reactive distances to raise the aggression threshhold, at some stage in reality I suppose is the term for it, the dog will light up in aggression, maybe an off leash dog running into the training area, a person with a dog popping up around a corner on a casual walk whatever, but it will happen, and dealing with that situation when it does I think is an important part of the process.

yeah I totally agree - that is the most difficult part of desensitisation - you really do need to have so much control over the situation you're putting the dog into to make it successful

OFF TOPIC:

Kelpie-i, I'm doing a psych degree. So probably not what you're after I am actually doing it because I eventually I want to work on an early intervention program to help infants that are showing soft signs of autism. So really I just dubiously apply what i've learned to dogs because they are a big interest of mine

My dogs actually do provide me with opportunities to practice what I'm learning.

For example I have done heaps and heaps of systemtaic desensitisation on my rescue boy who has had a wide variety of fears stemming from abuse and poor socialisation (he is the sweetest dog ever )

[abed]

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition.

That I agree with. What if we can teach a dog that a calm reaction reduces stress instead?

The reactive drive in aggression is defence drive and lowing defence drive is what raises the reactive threshhold. Maintaining a high level of defence drive in a reactive dog or increasing it by agitation defeats the purpose. Defence drive IMHO must be reduced to provide the best opportunity for rehabilitation. Teaching the dog a calm reaction reduces stress is the idea, yes absolutely.

Edited December 7, 2010 by abed

[Kavik]

I've had the best results by teaching a calm response and focus on me (using the technique in the book Click to Calm).

Unexpected dogs that appear suddenly or are off lead are the most difficult to deal with I agree.

[Aidan]

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition.

That I agree with. What if we can teach a dog that a calm reaction reduces stress instead?

The reactive drive in aggression is defence drive and lowing defence drive is what raises the reactive threshhold. Maintaining a high level of defence drive in a reactive dog or increasing it by agitation defeats the purpose. Defence drive IMHO must be reduced to provide the best opportunity for rehabilitation. Teaching the dog a calm reaction reduces stress is the idea, yes absolutely.

Even a very hard protection breed will not stay in defence drive for ever if the other dog doesn't go away. Nor should the dog be unresponsive to commands during defence drive if the groundwork is completed correctly.

[Kelpie-i]

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition

.

abed, which is why I find it important to keep the dog just under threshold at all times when going through the desensitisation process. It's when the totally oblivious owners continue to deviate from threshold that the symptoms continue to persist. This hinders the rehab process and strengthens the notion to the dog that this is the way he must continue to act.

Someone asked earlier how do we know when you've reached a breakthrough....this is merely anecdotcal and based only by my findings over many years and dogs...

1. Lack of any apparent displacement/stress signals at the current distance and at some deviation of that threshold. Dog looks much more relaxed than previous, although still looking around.

2. Displacement and stress signals can be one of more of the following: heavy panting when no hot weather/no physical exercise, yawning, lip flicking, eating grass, looking away/hiding, continuously jumping up on owner and grabbing at arms, clothes, reluctant to obey known commands (especially down/drop), reluctant to have back towards other dogs ....etc.

When a previously highly reactive dogs, flying at the end of the lead with dogs at say 20 metres away can all of a sudden, quickly but calmly walk past the same dogs at 20 metres, that is the start of the initial breakthrough! The next step (of course this will vary with different dogs), would be to close that threshold by .5 metres so that the dog walks quickly but calmly past the dog at 19.5 metres (or even closer in some instances).

Again, the 'breakthrough' is the lack of any apparent displacement and stress signals from the dog at the current or closer threshold. Physical corrections (however they are applied) will stop the symptoms (barking, lunging, air snapping, growling etc) but will NOT remove the displacement and stress signals, because the dog is still very much stressed in the environment.... and habituation/desensitisation has not occurred. This is one reason why these dogs are always forever panting, eating grass, looking away or jumping up on their owners in class. Which is why I call these dogs "ticking time bombs".

[Cosmolo]

I agree with you Kelpie i. Just wondering what your thoughts are though- do you feel there is never/ very rarely an instance where the application of a correction that does block lunging/ barking etc is of any benefit?

[abed]

That's a good point and ideally true, but given the road to rehabilitation is a long one, unless you can provide absolute controlled conditions at all times to train the dog reducing the reactive distances to raise the aggression threshhold, at some stage in reality I suppose is the term for it, the dog will light up in aggression, maybe an off leash dog running into the training area, a person with a dog popping up around a corner on a casual walk whatever, but it will happen, and dealing with that situation when it does I think is an important part of the process.

I think that is a very good point. No matter what techniques are used to reduce aggression, there needs to be a system in place for dealing with the unexpected situation without setting the training back weeks. Just from my experience with my own very DA dog, I think reducing aggression using pure desensitisation requires a trainer who is very skilled in reading dog body language & manipulating critical distances, and a very controlled environment.

I also think aggression would never be "cured" unless the dog learns a new emotional reaction to seeing other dogs or seeing people. Just controlling the behaviours the dog exhibits (through punishing the aggression or rewarding alternative behaviours really heavily e.g. working in drive around other dogs) is IMO only management. It teaches the dog self control or it distracts it, but the desire behind the fighting behaviour still remains.

Unfortunately from my experiences you are totally correct Staranais IMHO. Even with good success, you should never trust a dog with a predisposition to stranger based DA or HA in an uncontrolled environment, or should I say, I would never take the chance of assuming under all circumstances that the dog is cured.

[megan_]

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition

.

abed, which is why I find it important to keep the dog just under threshold at all times when going through the desensitisation process.

Kelpie-i - how do you suggest that an ordinary owner does this (genuine question)? I have a girl that can sometimes be set off by things. I only walk her at odd times at on leash areas - but there is always a moron with an off leash dog. One guy will even follow me with his off leash staffy (I cross the road) so that they can say hello.

Am I never meant to let her leave the house until she has reached a certain level of desensitisation?

It becomes a vicious circle because I get stressed when I see off leash dogs on our walks and she picks up on that and reacts accordingly.

[Aidan]

You just need to move in the right direction, what else can you do? If your dog is going backwards, then make every effort to avoid other dogs. If the behaviour modification is going well, this should not be necessary although the fewer set-backs, the better.

[Kavik]

megan - what work have you done already?

Certainly one thing I would do is not walk where there are likely to be off leash dogs (or until you have a strategy, any dogs at all)

I read the book Click to Calm, Zoe already understood the clicker, then I worked on it with dogs across the road so that there was no way the other dog could possibly get near us. This allowed me to relax as there was no chance of an incident, and I could then work on rewarding the desireable behaviour and treating it as a clicker training exercise rather than stressing about the other dog. With time I was then able to take it 'on the road' on our walks - pulling into driveways to get enough space if necessary and of course judging the owner and dog (if it looked like an out of control dog, I would still cross the road). Once I trusted our training I was able to relax which helped the process considerably.

I always tell people who look like visiting with their dog that my dog is not friendly (though she may be sitting there quietly not reacting at the time).

[abed]

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition.

That I agree with. What if we can teach a dog that a calm reaction reduces stress instead?

The reactive drive in aggression is defence drive and lowing defence drive is what raises the reactive threshhold. Maintaining a high level of defence drive in a reactive dog or increasing it by agitation defeats the purpose. Defence drive IMHO must be reduced to provide the best opportunity for rehabilitation. Teaching the dog a calm reaction reduces stress is the idea, yes absolutely.

Even a very hard protection breed will not stay in defence drive for ever if the other dog doesn't go away. Nor should the dog be unresponsive to commands during defence drive if the groundwork is completed correctly.

We are not talking about clear headed dogs of stable temperament ideal for protection work that are reacting with sharpness or social aggression, different ball game with a dog like that, than a dog who displays similar behaviour out of insecurity and defence although the symptoms of their behaviour may appear the same lighting up on the end of the leash. The socially aggressive dog is not stressed and is acting out of an extension of prey drive ecsalating into fighting drive like a hunting drive if you like to catch the prey and kill it. A dog high in social aggression in a hard working breed wants the fight, they are not reacting out of fear or acting in defence. Rehabilitating a good working dog not to react aggressively is easy, so there is a difference between the two scenarios and the training approach also I believe. In other words, a good working dog isn't loopy in it's thought process the way a fear aggressive dog is.

The difference between the two temperaments can be easily seen for example, a stable dog acting out of social aggression can be redirected with a toy fairly easily when they are lighting up at a stranger for example, you can give them a reward to satisfy drive and they take it. A dog reacting out of fear/insecurity won't take the bait, you cannot divert their focus off the aggression target.

Edited December 7, 2010 by abed

[Kelpie-i]

I agree with you Kelpie i. Just wondering what your thoughts are though- do you feel there is never/ very rarely an instance where the application of a correction that does block lunging/ barking etc is of any benefit?

To be honest with you Cosmolo....it's not something I do anymore because I never really saw any noticeable psychological improvements with the dog when applied, just a ceasing of the actual symtpom behaviours themselves which would sometimes return amplified if the owners deviated too quickly or often enough.

Perhaps waaaaay down the desensitisation track when a dog that has been comfortable for a number of years and then suddenly decides to give a cold stare or slight bark for whatever reason....this might be the time when a lead pop or verbal "OI" may be warranted...but the dog would need to be in a somewhat calm and generally non-stressed disposition.....Hmmmmm. I will wait to see when my 'research' gets to that point before I answer with more conviction

megan_ this is just my advice only.......As per my first post here, exercises like U-turns, backaways, LAT and BAT help you to develop different behaviours in the dog and also provide you with emerency/contingency exercises for chance encounters. :D Your trainer/behaviourist would be best to give you the specific program for your dog.

[Aidan]

Even a very hard protection breed will not stay in defence drive for ever if the other dog doesn't go away. Nor should the dog be unresponsive to commands during defence drive if the groundwork is completed correctly.

We are not talking about clear headed dogs of stable temperament ideal for protection work that are reacting with sharpness or social aggression, different ball game with a dog like that, than a dog who displays similar behaviour out of insecurity and defence

I realise that, although I'm not sure how differently I would treat these dogs.

[abed]

You just need to move in the right direction, what else can you do? If your dog is going backwards, then make every effort to avoid other dogs. If the behaviour modification is going well, this should not be necessary although the fewer set-backs, the better.

You can't avoid other dogs, you need dogs around for the distraction to train alternate behaviour which is the problem most owners are faced with. You can train in a dog free environment some wonderful focus exercises with great success, but it's difficult to override a strong fear reaction in a dog with commands learned in a stress free environment.

[Cosmolo]

Thats really interesting Kelpie i- i have had a dog recently that i felt was similar except over a shorter time frame. Lots and lots of LAT and a complete reduction in the anxiety that drove the behaviour so significantly- but every now and then i felt there was some habitual behaviour that we then corrected and this provided some additional reliability. There was no visible increase in anxiety at this point either but i would have been very interested in having a 'brain map' from start to 'finish' with this particular dog and to see whether the application of the correction in this case had an influence on chemical responses in the brain.

Another question (and i am sorry if i am OT, just interested in others perspectives) When a dog becomes reactive/ aggressive at a significant critical distance and this distance cannot be practically maintained on a daily basis- how do you adjust (if at all) the process to suit? This is a particular problem in highly urban areas where in some cases, you can't get out the front gate without an encounter with a dog. Keep in mind in these same areas, yard sizes are often extremely small so outside exercise is a must do.

[JulesP]

You just need to move in the right direction, what else can you do? If your dog is going backwards, then make every effort to avoid other dogs. If the behaviour modification is going well, this should not be necessary although the fewer set-backs, the better.

You can't avoid other dogs, you need dogs around for the distraction to train alternate behaviour which is the problem most owners are faced with. You can train in a dog free environment some wonderful focus exercises with great success, but it's difficult to override a strong fear reaction in a dog with commands learned in a stress free environment.

But you need to use the dogs in a controlled environment with sensible handlers. Not idiots walking their dogs off lead in an on lead space that insist on their dog saying hello to yours.

Megan try singing when you see an off lead dog. That might help your stress levels. Hard to stress and sing at the same time.

[Kelpie-i]

There was no visible increase in anxiety at this point either but i would have been very interested in having a 'brain map' from start to 'finish' with this particular dog and to see whether the application of the correction in this case had an influence on chemical responses in the brain.

That would be the key difference Cosmolo...well I believe anyway :D If the dog is reacting through habitual residue only, then that behaviour could very well be quickly discouraged with a mild correction of some sort. There is a very noticeable difference between behaviour that is driven through genuine emotion and that displayed merely due to habitual residue.

[Aidan]

You just need to move in the right direction, what else can you do? If your dog is going backwards, then make every effort to avoid other dogs. If the behaviour modification is going well, this should not be necessary although the fewer set-backs, the better.

You can't avoid other dogs, you need dogs around for the distraction to train alternate behaviour which is the problem most owners are faced with. You can train in a dog free environment some wonderful focus exercises with great success, but it's difficult to override a strong fear reaction in a dog with commands learned in a stress free environment.

My latest intake began training 5 weeks ago. The two "worst" dogs in this group last week worked inside a group of five other dogs. One of them had a polite, on-leash greeting. The other walked between two other dogs 4' apart, then back again.

For the first 4 weeks, one of them worked from behind a tarpaulin we had set up between star-pickets about 20m from the rest of the class. He poked his head out for 5 seconds at a time, working up to 30 seconds at a time with 1 min breaks between trials. 5 trials at a time, then back in the car for 5 minutes. Not a stress free environment, but pretty close and it got some good groundwork in.

Admittedly, I handled both dogs last week. So there were no concomitant cues from the owners, and my training mechanics are unconsciously competent. Both dogs did have brief reactions, but were responsive to the cues given.