Rehabilitating An Aggressive Dog

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Not to really side with or against anyone, these comments are I think worth a mention.

The only thing that will lower the drive naturally in the aggressive dog is the other dog running away.

I disagree, nor is it necessarily about lowering drive.

K9: I think sometimes it is about lowering drives in some dogs.

A: Even a very hard protection breed will not stay in defence drive for ever if the other dog doesn't go away. Nor should the dog be unresponsive to commands during defence drive if the groundwork is completed

correctly.

K9: True and the aggressive dog will eventually come to terms with the other dog being there, if the other (decoy) dog continues to provide the same level of distraction, if the aggressive triggers reaction in the decoy dog, you may not successfully wait out the aggressive dog. I find this a slipperly slope to work on in the early part of rehab.

[Steve K9Pro]

KI: To be honest with you Cosmolo....it's not something I do anymore because I never really saw any noticeable psychological improvements with the dog when applied, just a ceasing of the actual symtpom behaviours themselves which would

sometimes return amplified if the owners deviated too quickly or often

enough.

K9: I agree that it can be wrong to correct the "aggression" but I think that with some dogs correcting some aspects of their behaviour that compiles into aggressive displays can be helpful at teaching some impulse control, so I wouldnt discount it totally, but it really depends on the dog too. Some of the dogs brought to me have no critical distance that is measureable, at any distance they can peak and hit unmanagable levels of aggression in which case, you cannot operate just inside of their comfort zone.

and this too

KI: That would be the key difference Cosmolo...well I believe anyway If the dog is reacting through habitual residue only,

then that behaviour could very well be quickly discouraged with a mild correction of some sort. There is a very noticeable difference between

behaviour that is driven through genuine emotion and that displayed merely due

to habitual residue.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: My latest intake began training 5 weeks ago. The two "worst" dogs in this group last week worked inside a group of five other dogs. One of them had a polite, on-leash greeting. The other walked between two other dogs 4' apart, then back again.

For the first 4 weeks, one of them worked from behind a tarpaulin we had set up between star-pickets about 20m from the rest of the

class. He poked his head out for 5 seconds at a time, working up to 30 seconds at a time with 1 min breaks between trials. 5 trials at a time, then back in the car for 5 minutes. Not a stress free environment, but pretty close and it

got some good groundwork in.

Admittedly, I handled both dogs last week.

So there were no concomitant cues from the owners, and my training mechanics are

unconsciously competent. Both dogs did have brief reactions, but were responsive

to the cues given.

K9: If you have handled the dogs each time this could in itself be a concomitant cue though, or if it is done in the same place, this could represent a safe zone for a fearful dog or controlled zone for a rank aggressive dog (as you know I am sure)...

[Steve K9Pro]

M: I used "Look at That" for a while, but she seems to be desensitised to it when one of her "arch enemies" (eg poor muslim man who wears traditional garb) walks down the street. She also seems to react very randomly. She gets very upset by some people and not by others (when there is no difference that I can discerne)

I have had some success with getting her focus and then getting her to do some "training" as someone walks past iwth a very high level of

reinforcement. The problem is if someone has an off leash dog/walks very slowly and is looking odd it is hard to sustain this.

Sigh. It seems like it is "easy" in theory. When you have a reactive dog and live in a high densisty area with no back yard, you have to face off leash dogs every day unfortunately, no matter how well you plan things.

K9: I agree 100% it is easy in theory but it doesnt seem to play out that simple in real life and whilst we would like to control everything, life can get in the way, I hear you.

I think distractive techniques are a great part of the program but they cant be it all, as you mentioned.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: I have found in all cases that a physical correction does reduce the displacement and stress signals as the dog learns by not reacting caused by correction avoidance, that nothing happened being exposed to another dog and dogs being within their previous reaction threshhold are nothing to fear.

K9: I havent found anything that works in all cases, no matter what case I am working on, but I cant see how it will work with some dogs.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Behavioural problems in dogs can be a process to work though and that is if your working with just the dog, but we have the owner to consider also, their levels of stress, fear, hope and courage have to be assessed and the program based around them and their dog, which can be a real challenge.

I feel that there needs to be a series of steps made each one having a specific goal that may not be directly related to the aggression itelf, but one that may be contributing to the primary symptom (fear perhaps).

Then I put it all together and progress along a heavily guarded path that allows progress at the fastest rate possible until the owners goals are met.

Owners goals arent always about a totally cured / relaxed / non aggressive dog either, some are just happy if they can get down the street without an explosion!

It takes real commitment on the owners part and to those that get there, I take my hat off to you all.

[corvus]

A few thoughts:

I think that animals certainly can learn when they are over threshold, but are prone to scary one-trial learning of what to be terrified of or what they did to make everything better. And that learning sticks like glue and is REALLY hard to overcome. I think you have to know when to get your animal out and know when you can wait it out.

My dogs go over threshold sometimes (e.g. swans seem to send my Lapphund into a glassy-eyed, tunnel-visioned frenzy) and I find their default behaviours come out sooner or later. Kivi sits and Erik drops. This is a response to extreme frustration for them as it's the only thing that really gets them going. I sometimes haven't waited it out for whatever reason, but 98% of the time they go to their default behaviours before they can think properly and generally within ten seconds. Once they do their default behaviours, they calm down a tiny bit and are capable of hearing me again. Then we work through it.

The theory behind classical conditioning is that some emotional states are antagonistic to each other, i.e. one will always overshadow the other. The reason I bring this up is because I think it's worth remembering that evidence suggests play (as well as consuming food) is antagonistic to fear.

Talking in terms of drive is frankly confusing. I know what the last police dog trainer I spoke to meant when he was talking about defense drive, but I'm not convinced it's the same thing folks here are talking about when they say defense drive.

Perhaps it is valuable to consider aggressive behaviour in light of the opponent-process theory, with the distress of the situation being counter-balanced by the relief when that distress is alleviated. Over time, perhaps it is the case that the actual distress is not as powerful as the sense of relief after having responded in the usual fashion to alleviate the stress.

With that in mind, I think perhaps R- would be more suitable as a tool towards the end in changing habitually aggressive behaviour than P+.

[abed]

I beg to differ on the assumption that a dog is incapable of learning or listening during an aggressive light up which I don't think is entirely true.

I don't usually like to argue with scientific research and facts This is not something I just dreamed up.

If you block an aggressive lunge and episode with a DD collar as I do

I'm not sure who your clients usually are, but I can tell you that Mrs Citizen with her DA dachshund would promptly walk out of my school if I proceeded to hang her dog with a DD collar and then ask her to do same . Sorry abed, but I need to work with methods that the average dog owner is willing and able to do, regardless of dog breed and severity of the aggression. My aim is for that owner to come away with good handling and coping techniques with permanent results, and the way I and my instructors work with these dogs seems to work for most of them.

I didn't want to get into a debate of methods...seriously over that on DOL ...you will always cater to your own audience, and my audience is the average dog owner and their kids

I do understand the facets of commercial dog training and I don't disagree with your stance on that, but having said that, I don't think all classes should be based around Mrs Citizen and her Dachshund with the same process applied to Miss Fivefoot's DA GSD if it's not the best process to suit Miss Fivefoot's situation or she be denied the use of a DD collar as an example because Mrs Citizen may throw a hissy fit. I often end up with Miss Fivefoot's predicament after training systems applied by class necessity failed her dog or she was ejected from the class when her dog didn't respond appreciably.

There is too often a cross of swords between pet dog and working dog trainers in the use of equipment and methods which is shame really that there appears quite a division. Given that most working breeds are pet dogs, there is often a pattern where it appears many pet dog trainers try and apply systems that work well with the average pet type dog to a working breed on the basis of it being a pet and not a police dog. But some working breed pets have the same traits used in police work and sometimes need that little bit extra in training which would be of great benefit when recognised IMHO.

[JulesP]

You sound very familiar abed.....

[abed]

A few thoughts:

I think that animals certainly can learn when they are over threshold, but are prone to scary one-trial learning of what to be terrified of or what they did to make everything better. And that learning sticks like glue and is REALLY hard to overcome. I think you have to know when to get your animal out and know when you can wait it out.

My dogs go over threshold sometimes (e.g. swans seem to send my Lapphund into a glassy-eyed, tunnel-visioned frenzy) and I find their default behaviours come out sooner or later. Kivi sits and Erik drops. This is a response to extreme frustration for them as it's the only thing that really gets them going. I sometimes haven't waited it out for whatever reason, but 98% of the time they go to their default behaviours before they can think properly and generally within ten seconds. Once they do their default behaviours, they calm down a tiny bit and are capable of hearing me again. Then we work through it.

The theory behind classical conditioning is that some emotional states are antagonistic to each other, i.e. one will always overshadow the other. The reason I bring this up is because I think it's worth remembering that evidence suggests play (as well as consuming food) is antagonistic to fear.

Talking in terms of drive is frankly confusing. I know what the last police dog trainer I spoke to meant when he was talking about defense drive, but I'm not convinced it's the same thing folks here are talking about when they say defense drive.

Perhaps it is valuable to consider aggressive behaviour in light of the opponent-process theory, with the distress of the situation being counter-balanced by the relief when that distress is alleviated. Over time, perhaps it is the case that the actual distress is not as powerful as the sense of relief after having responded in the usual fashion to alleviate the stress.

With that in mind, I think perhaps R- would be more suitable as a tool towards the end in changing habitually aggressive behaviour than P+.

I agree with your understanding very much Corvus. Play and food consumption is antagonistic to fear and is a difficult process to redirect a fear aggressive dog onto food and toys when in a state of stress to encourage an alternate behaviour. It happens with sporting dogs sometimes working at a new training field where they suffer a noticable reduction in prey drive which is often insecurities the dog is feeling causing their performance to suffer. It's the same flatness caused by a performance dog fearing heavy corrections in training where positive and drive training overtook the old school methods easing stress on the dog enhancing performance.

[Kavik]

In my experience abed

I used to do anything to try to distract my dog from other dogs including waving food in front of her face (which she would ignore). I found that with some focus work and clicker work that I learnt in Click to Calm she will now look at me for a click/treat at a much closer distance to other dogs without showing aggression and I don't have to wave food in front of her face - she will offer the behaviour on her own

[corvus]

You sound very familiar abed.....

I'm counting days. Be verrrrry quiet.

[corvus]

I agree with your understanding very much Corvus. Play and food consumption is antagonistic to fear and is a difficult process to redirect a fear aggressive dog onto food and toys when in a state of stress to encourage an alternate behaviour.

The thing is, if the dog will take food or play at all then you're doing more than merely distracting them or rewarding them. You're also classically conditioning them to be in a less fearful state around their triggers. I think one of the reasons why LAT is so effective is that it gives people and dogs a simple procedure to follow in the presence of the trigger. The addition of the operant portion is nice, taking the whole counter-conditioning process one step further. Now the dog is not only in an appetitive state, but in a training state. Neither of my dogs are aggressive or fearful by any stretch of the words, but I LOVE this quick ability to put them in a training state. The more it's practiced the easier it gets.

Sorry, it probably all sounds obvious, but I sometimes I feel like people could be reminded how powerful counter-conditioning can be.

[mita]

OFF TOPIC....SORRY!!!!! raineth, mita and Aidan, what sort of science degrees have you guys studied, or are studying. Even before this thread I was looking at going back to school (university actually !!) to study animal ethology to help me better understand the "inside going's on" of dogs. Should have done it moons ago but better late than never I reckon Where do you recommend I start looking and what steps are required? Any help would be greatly appreciated

OT, sorry, too. I'm late getting back because I went off to read the interesting paper Aidan referred us to. (Thanks for that!)

I taught at a university, in the social & behavioral sciences area.

Animal ethology can be part of a Psych Degree.

A good idea is to look at what the various universities offer. I'm more familiar with the University of Qld.

There used to be a strong animal behaviour strand over in their vet school (no! I'm not suggesting you enrol in vet science!).

Years ago, I once slunk over there with our nutty (but adored) sheltie to have a session with one of their animal behaviorists (who was doing a PhD, I think, under Dr Judith Blackshaw who was a real authority in the area). As the session went on, I found myself frequently saying...'Yes, that's the same principle we teach for dealing with children!'.

We both finished up saying that we ought to swap places to give a lecture!

Back to serious On Topic:

By sheer luck I found the entire chapter from Dr Judith Blackshaw's book, Notes on Some Topics in Applied Animal Behaviour. She's retired. & it says elsewhere that this chapter was updated in 2003 by Paul McGreevy, Uni of Sydney. There'd still be lots of research since then (& differences of opinions!). But you might find the section on Dealing with Problems of Dog/Dog Agression of some interest. There's some retraining strategies.

[/i]

http://www.animalbehaviour.net/JudithKBlac...w/Chapter7b.htm

Edited December 8, 2010 by mita

[mita]

But, quite rightly, researchers in neuroscience make the point that caution is needed in translating their findings into behaviours. Behaviours, animal & human, are mediated by a myriad of other factors, too.

All of which make actual, individual behaviour, not a simple matter to predict.

The neuroscience doesn't make it any simpler to predict! I agree though, my point was only to validate Kelpie-i's perspective from another angle. Behavioural science had evidence for this long before neuroscience, but neuroscience has filled a lot of the gaps. The two disciplines are working very nicely together, the paper I linked to is a good example.

Sorry, OT. Thanks for that reference. I went & read it.

There's a v. good recent book that unpacks the complexities behind behaviour (with all the conflicting evidence). Especially the fact that everyone is born with a biologically based temperamental bias. BUT how that pans out as we grow depends on a whole range of environmental factors. So the environment can powerfully distort the effect of genes. (General principles wouldn't be too astray re dogs, too. )

The Temperamental Thread: How genes, culture, time and luck make us who we are. Jerome Kagan (emeritus professor of psychology, Harvard).

[Kavik]

A little brag

I was walking Zoe today and a Schnauzer comes by barking, lunging and pulling on the lead (with the owner going good girl ). Zoe was a good dog and sat there looking at me on a loose lead and did not react at all to the other dog who was being obnoxious Previously she would be carrying on and it would be hard to get her attention. Yes I had food and a clicker, but I was not shoving it under her nose trying to distract her from the other dog, I was standing calmly and she chose to give me her attention to earn her reward

[mita]

she chose to give me her attention to earn her reward

And each time that happens, it further turns into a good habit.

[Kelpie-i]

A little brag ;)

I was walking Zoe today and a Schnauzer comes by barking, lunging and pulling on the lead (with the owner going good girl ). Zoe was a good dog and sat there looking at me on a loose lead and did not react at all to the other dog who was being obnoxious Previously she would be carrying on and it would be hard to get her attention. Yes I had food and a clicker, but I was not shoving it under her nose trying to distract her from the other dog, I was standing calmly and she chose to give me her attention to earn her reward

;)

I so know that feeling of elation Kavik...well done to you. I'm sure that was one of the breakthrough's we were discussing earlier!! Congrats..it can only get better from here on.

[Aidan3]

Zoe was a good dog and sat there looking at me on a loose lead and did not react at all to the other dog who was being obnoxious

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Great work Kavik, its all about strengthening that is the default behavior now! Well done!