Rehabilitating An Aggressive Dog

[megan_]

JulesP that is what I do - I must look manic to passers-by! I sing little songs like "who's that man? what is he doing?" in a high pitched voice. I also try to smile as it lets off endorphins (sp). Bit hard to do when two staffys are jumping on your terrified girl and their owner doesn't give a crap.

I used "Look at That" for a while, but she seems to be desensitised to it when one of her "arch enemies" (eg poor muslim man who wears traditional garb) walks down the street. She also seems to react very randomly. She gets very upset by some people and not by others (when there is no difference that I can discerne)

I have had some success with getting her focus and then getting her to do some "training" as someone walks past iwth a very high level of reinforcement. The problem is if someone has an off leash dog/walks very slowly and is looking odd it is hard to sustain this.

Sigh. It seems like it is "easy" in theory. When you have a reactive dog and live in a high densisty area with no back yard, you have to face off leash dogs every day unfortunately, no matter how well you plan things.

[abed]

The dog reacts to try and lower it's stress level and the worse thing is the dog to learn that an aggressive reaction reduces the stress and becomes a learned behaviour and becomes part of the dogs disposition

.

abed, which is why I find it important to keep the dog just under threshold at all times when going through the desensitisation process. It's when the totally oblivious owners continue to deviate from threshold that the symptoms continue to persist. This hinders the rehab process and strengthens the notion to the dog that this is the way he must continue to act.

Someone asked earlier how do we know when you've reached a breakthrough....this is merely anecdotcal and based only by my findings over many years and dogs...

1. Lack of any apparent displacement/stress signals at the current distance and at some deviation of that threshold. Dog looks much more relaxed than previous, although still looking around.

2. Displacement and stress signals can be one of more of the following: heavy panting when no hot weather/no physical exercise, yawning, lip flicking, eating grass, looking away/hiding, continuously jumping up on owner and grabbing at arms, clothes, reluctant to obey known commands (especially down/drop), reluctant to have back towards other dogs ....etc.

When a previously highly reactive dogs, flying at the end of the lead with dogs at say 20 metres away can all of a sudden, quickly but calmly walk past the same dogs at 20 metres, that is the start of the initial breakthrough! The next step (of course this will vary with different dogs), would be to close that threshold by .5 metres so that the dog walks quickly but calmly past the dog at 19.5 metres (or even closer in some instances).

Again, the 'breakthrough' is the lack of any apparent displacement and stress signals from the dog at the current or closer threshold. Physical corrections (however they are applied) will stop the symptoms (barking, lunging, air snapping, growling etc) but will NOT remove the displacement and stress signals, because the dog is still very much stressed in the environment.... and habituation/desensitisation has not occurred. This is one reason why these dogs are always forever panting, eating grass, looking away or jumping up on their owners in class. Which is why I call these dogs "ticking time bombs".

I have found in all cases that a physical correction does reduce the displacement and stress signals as the dog learns by not reacting caused by correction avoidance, that nothing happened being exposed to another dog and dogs being within their previous reaction threshhold are nothing to fear. They learn that the situation they once thought required an agressive response is no longer required of them and stress in general is reduced. The other thing also is stress induced by the handler fearing the lack of control in an aggressive reaction, the handler/seeing another dog knowing their dog will cause a scene, or turning around to avoid another dog, the handler transmits to the dog that the issue ahead is a scary situation to be feared making the dog worse. This can be seen with the same dog often handled by different family members. With one family member the dog is not too bad, with the other, the dog wants to kill everyone in proximity. The family member who the dog reacts worse with, has the higher level of anxiety increasing the dogs suspicion and fear/defence response.

Furthermore to this which is common, a small woman with a large aggressive dog, her fear is being unable to control the dog in a reaction because she physically cannot restrain the dog effectively if he lights up and for good reason she is petrified of this scenario when out with the dog. Show her how to take the drive away from the dog with a DD collar and instantly she has a handbrake to apply if the dog goes off. Her confidence skyrockets with her ability to control the dog, her anxiety reduces and the dog in reciprocation improves along with her increased confidence.

We are getting a bit techo here...........but most will know what I mean, hopefully??????.

Edited December 7, 2010 by abed

[Kelpie-i]

megan... Yes it can be extremely frustrating!!!! I know first hand how frustrating it can be which is why this is a subject very close to my heart. I not only work with clients and their dogs, but my own dog who has issues as well....so I feel your pain.

But the first thing is to realise you have a problem dog and then to promise to commit yourself to fixing the problem. Making the realisation that you cannot do this by yourself is the first step as a good trainer or school/club will help you every step of the way with your dog's issues. If you are already taking your dog to school and not getting the assistance, then switch schools to one that is able to help you with your particular issues.

You sound just like all the people I liaise with each day either on the phone or at consults!!! :D And I mean that in the most respectful way....because you just haven't found the right way yet.

Your dog will continue to react because he has not learned to cope with his surroundings...that's pretty much it. Which is why I recommend you commence training in a controlled environment first up.

Hope this helps. :D

I have found in all cases that a physical correction does reduce the displacement and stress signals as the dog learns by not reacting caused by correction avoidance, that nothing happened being exposed to another dog and dogs being within their previous reaction threshhold are nothing to fear. They learn that the situation they once thought required an agressive response is no longer required of them and stress in general is reduced. The other thing also is stress induced by the handler fearing the lack of control in an aggressive reaction, the handler/seeing another dog knowing their dog will cause a scene, or turning around to avoid another dog, the handler transmits to the dog that the issue ahead is a scary situation to be feared making the dog worse. This can be seen with the same dog often handled by different family members. With one family member the dog is not too bad, with the other, the dog wants to kill everyone in proximity. The family member who the dog reacts worse with, has the higher level of anxiety increasing the dogs suspicion and fear/defence response

Each to their own with the above abed...although I no longer agree with this.....USED TO THOUGH ;)

Edited December 7, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[megan_]

Kelpie-i - We have a behaviourist and we do training. We get A LOT of very good help. I hope my behaviourist isn't reading this and thinking I'm criticising her :D . She has gone to obedience classes and is a total angel (the dog, not the behaviourist). She does agility and is focused and happy - not at all interested in the other dogs. Everyone comments on what a "sweet and soft" dog I have.

I have gone from a dog that wouldn't move out of a crate and would totally shut down in the presence of a human to a dog that will happily walk along St Kilda peir, with kids running etc. She does agility and loves it, she loves her walks and will way her tail and happily say hello to lots of dogs and people. I couldn't have done this without my behaviourist help.

The problem is that certain things (dogs in her face, people who are scared of dogs and have that strange stare/tense thing happening). She also reacts to some things rather randomly. She sometimes does her "I am scared" act to people who she knows well - people who she would wag her tail upon seeing a few days earlier. I am getting her thyroid tested (behaviourist recommended this).

I guess I was just complaining out loud that you can have a lot of good advice, try your very hardest (and my hardest isn't good enough obivously) but still it can all go to sh*t in a handbasket as someone tries to follow you so their dog can say hello.

Edited December 7, 2010 by megan_

[abed]

I agree with you Kelpie i. Just wondering what your thoughts are though- do you feel there is never/ very rarely an instance where the application of a correction that does block lunging/ barking etc is of any benefit?

The alternative to not blocking the reaction is the dog being allowed to elevate it's aggression level through collar agitation being restrained or dragged away. The handler is reinforcing that it's ok for the dog to lunge and bark and agitates the dog to go harder from the physical restraint much like a back tie situation to elevate defence drive in protection training. The dog IMHO gets the wrong message what's required of it. I don't believe that a handler screaming NO NO NO and at the same time providing collar agitation to elevate a defensive state of mind is relaying the right messages to the dog.

[Kelpie-i]

The problem is that certain things (dogs in her face, people who are scared of dogs and have that strange stare/tense thing happening). She also reacts to some things rather randomly. She sometimes does her "I am scared" act to people who she knows well - people who she would wag her tail upon seeing a few days earlier. I am getting her thyroid tested (behaviourist recommended this).

I guess I was just complaining out loud that you can have a lot of good advice, try your very hardest (and my hardest isn't good enough obivously) but still it can all go to sh*t in a handbasket as someone tries to follow you so their dog can say hello.

These are very specific triggers and may possibly require some specific counter-conditioning work to deal with each individually. Perhaps talk with your behaviourist about them? Yes good idea having the thyroid tested...always good to eliminate any possible medical issues.

Unfortunately we cannot control our environment and you will always have the idiot owners who allow their dogs to roam free and approach your dog. Try carryng a bunch of yummy dog treats whenever you're out for a walk which you can throw at the approaching dog. They will almost always interrupts the dog's approach giving you time to make a quick getaway! :D

Edited December 7, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[abed]

megan... Yes it can be extremely frustrating!!!! I know first hand how frustrating it can be which is why this is a subject very close to my heart. I not only work with clients and their dogs, but my own dog who has issues as well....so I feel your pain.

But the first thing is to realise you have a problem dog and then to promise to commit yourself to fixing the problem. Making the realisation that you cannot do this by yourself is the first step as a good trainer or school/club will help you every step of the way with your dog's issues. If you are already taking your dog to school and not getting the assistance, then switch schools to one that is able to help you with your particular issues.

You sound just like all the people I liaise with each day either on the phone or at consults!!! :D And I mean that in the most respectful way....because you just haven't found the right way yet.

Your dog will continue to react because he has not learned to cope with his surroundings...that's pretty much it. Which is why I recommend you commence training in a controlled environment first up.

Hope this helps. :D

I have found in all cases that a physical correction does reduce the displacement and stress signals as the dog learns by not reacting caused by correction avoidance, that nothing happened being exposed to another dog and dogs being within their previous reaction threshhold are nothing to fear. They learn that the situation they once thought required an agressive response is no longer required of them and stress in general is reduced. The other thing also is stress induced by the handler fearing the lack of control in an aggressive reaction, the handler/seeing another dog knowing their dog will cause a scene, or turning around to avoid another dog, the handler transmits to the dog that the issue ahead is a scary situation to be feared making the dog worse. This can be seen with the same dog often handled by different family members. With one family member the dog is not too bad, with the other, the dog wants to kill everyone in proximity. The family member who the dog reacts worse with, has the higher level of anxiety increasing the dogs suspicion and fear/defence response

Each to their own with the above abed...although I no longer agree with this.....USED TO THOUGH ;)

How do you handle a dog that is at the end of the leash in an aggressive state barking and lunging with the intent to mount an attack???.

[Kelpie-i]

Depends....which side of the dog am I standing?

Edited December 7, 2010 by Kelpie-i

[abed]

You just need to move in the right direction, what else can you do? If your dog is going backwards, then make every effort to avoid other dogs. If the behaviour modification is going well, this should not be necessary although the fewer set-backs, the better.

You can't avoid other dogs, you need dogs around for the distraction to train alternate behaviour which is the problem most owners are faced with. You can train in a dog free environment some wonderful focus exercises with great success, but it's difficult to override a strong fear reaction in a dog with commands learned in a stress free environment.

My latest intake began training 5 weeks ago. The two "worst" dogs in this group last week worked inside a group of five other dogs. One of them had a polite, on-leash greeting. The other walked between two other dogs 4' apart, then back again.

For the first 4 weeks, one of them worked from behind a tarpaulin we had set up between star-pickets about 20m from the rest of the class. He poked his head out for 5 seconds at a time, working up to 30 seconds at a time with 1 min breaks between trials. 5 trials at a time, then back in the car for 5 minutes. Not a stress free environment, but pretty close and it got some good groundwork in.

Admittedly, I handled both dogs last week. So there were no concomitant cues from the owners, and my training mechanics are unconsciously competent. Both dogs did have brief reactions, but were responsive to the cues given.

The tarpaulin idea is a good one, I like that :D

[abed]

Depends....which side of the dog am I standing?

The dog is in front of you at the end of the leash, pulling and barking aggressively, what do you do at that point where the dog has lost the plot???.

As I mentioned previously, I would have a DD dollar on that dog and block it with a firm no and release it when it regained composure. I am interested in how you would tackle the same situation???

[Staranais]

Depends....which side of the dog am I standing?

The dog is in front of you at the end of the leash, pulling and barking aggressively, what do you do at that point where the dog has lost the plot???.

As I mentioned previously, I would have a DD dollar on that dog and block it with a firm no and release it when it regained composure. I am interested in how you would tackle the same situation???

I'm not Kelpei-i, but in the past I have done as you have done (on a flat collar), or physically picked the dog up & removed him from the situation (he was extremely stable & did not redirect). However, I also think that by letting the dog get so close that my dog was aroused or freaked, I had undone some of my work desensitising the dog & made my job ultimately longer & harder. So, what I did to control & redirect my dog was only making the best of a bad situation.

My old boy was a terrier - very predatory, very game, scared of nothing. I believe we never got him feeling calm around other dogs, although with drive work (mainly) and corrections (some) he became very trustworthy in public and would act non-aggressive towards other dogs (so long as he knew he would either be rewarded with a tug or corrected). I think the distinction between acting calm & feeling calm is an important distinction for some dogs.

I would love to learn more about handling aggressive confident dogs, but sadly just about every trainer I've visited in person (in the quest to reform my prior dog) have had more excuses than knowledge to impart. :D

[superminty]

Try carryng a bunch of yummy dog treats whenever you're out for a walk which you can throw at the approaching dog. They will almost always interrupts the dog's approach giving you time to make a quick getaway!

Darn it, why can I NEVER remember to do this when actually in a situation where it probably would have worked! Had a treat bag full of treats too.

Situtation arose about 15 minutes ago :D

Sorry, completely OT.

Edited December 7, 2010 by superminty

[abed]

Depends....which side of the dog am I standing?

The dog is in front of you at the end of the leash, pulling and barking aggressively, what do you do at that point where the dog has lost the plot???.

As I mentioned previously, I would have a DD dollar on that dog and block it with a firm no and release it when it regained composure. I am interested in how you would tackle the same situation???

I'm not Kelpei-i, but in the past I have done as you have done (on a flat collar), or physically picked the dog up & removed him from the situation (he was extremely stable & did not redirect). However, I also think that by letting the dog get so close that my dog was aroused or freaked, I had undone some of my work desensitising the dog & made my job ultimately longer & harder. So, what I did to control & redirect my dog was only making the best of a bad situation.

My old boy was a terrier - very predatory, very game, scared of nothing. I believe we never got him feeling calm around other dogs, although with drive work (mainly) and corrections (some) he became very trustworthy in public and would act non-aggressive towards other dogs (so long as he knew he would either be rewarded with a tug or corrected). I think the distinction between acting calm & feeling calm is an important distinction for some dogs.

I would love to learn more about handling aggressive confident dogs, but sadly just about every trainer I've visited in person (in the quest to reform my prior dog) have had more excuses than knowledge to impart.

Your old boy sounded like a nice dog to handle and work with from a training perspective and is similar to how many good working dogs react. He doesn't sound to have had fear based aggression but more a social dominance. True fear based aggression is the most difficult behaviour to contend with I think as the dog is too foggy headed in a reactive state to do a lot with in terms of redirecting energy towards toys, food etc. The narrow vision one track mind to get that dog before he gets me insecure mentality always presents the greatest challenge. I think a different approach is needed from determining why a dog is DA as to the best rehabilitation road to take. Really hard nerved confident working dogs although hard to motivate sometimes and perhaps not ideal for all working disciplines are never DA, they don't care about other dogs and have a grace of arrogance which other dogs seem to pick up on like an alpha status most other dogs won't challenge. They do however resist direction often with an attidude "if you make me do something I don't like, I might have to bite you" :D

[abed]

JulesP that is what I do - I must look manic to passers-by! I sing little songs like "who's that man? what is he doing?" in a high pitched voice. I also try to smile as it lets off endorphins (sp). Bit hard to do when two staffys are jumping on your terrified girl and their owner doesn't give a crap.

I used "Look at That" for a while, but she seems to be desensitised to it when one of her "arch enemies" (eg poor muslim man who wears traditional garb) walks down the street. She also seems to react very randomly. She gets very upset by some people and not by others (when there is no difference that I can discerne)

I have had some success with getting her focus and then getting her to do some "training" as someone walks past iwth a very high level of reinforcement. The problem is if someone has an off leash dog/walks very slowly and is looking odd it is hard to sustain this.

Sigh. It seems like it is "easy" in theory. When you have a reactive dog and live in a high densisty area with no back yard, you have to face off leash dogs every day unfortunately, no matter how well you plan things.

That does explain the real side of things Megan and the environment makes things difficult for the average pet owner to put a controlled desensitisation plan into place to avoid major setbacks. You could try on targets the dog won't react to, "who's that", dog has a look, then say "no one" as a maker word then treat. That often works to switch a dogs focus on and off and teach them they don't need to react on the maker word "no one" then move onto targets they normally bark at :D

Edited December 7, 2010 by abed

[Kelpie-i]

The dog is in front of you at the end of the leash, pulling and barking aggressively, what do you do at that point where the dog has lost the plot???.

As I mentioned previously, I would have a DD dollar on that dog and block it with a firm no and release it when it regained composure. I am interested in how you would tackle the same situation???

Firstly, no learning is occuring once the dog is pumped full of adrenaline and cortisol during an aggressive fire up, so there is no point doing anything really! Dog isn't listening nor learning anything at that time, so any reaction from you is both futile, useless and too late.

I would

- mentally thank my dog for letting me know that I was either too close to another dog or allowed another dog to get to close to us

- take the dog away as quickly as possible - U-turn or back-away (only if pre-conditioned)- no negotiations here.

- make a mental note of what I wasn't paying attention to prior to the incident ie the dog's micro behaviours, the environment, why I wasn't watching etc, whilst cursing and swearing at my stupidity

- wait patiently until the dog calms down and then continue working on the CC exercises and adhere to threshold as best as possible.

- keep my training sessions short and sweet

Sorry if there are no miraculous techniques here however this is what I found works best for the dogs and handlers I work with each week in class and is something that almost all handlers are capable of doing.

[Kavik]

Try carryng a bunch of yummy dog treats whenever you're out for a walk which you can throw at the approaching dog. They will almost always interrupts the dog's approach giving you time to make a quick getaway! :D

Darn it, why can I NEVER remember to do this when actually in a situation where it probably would have worked! Had a treat bag full of treats too.

Situtation arose about 15 minutes ago

Sorry, completely OT.

I've never thought of doing this! Not sure why as I always have treats! Thanks I will remember this one :D

[m-j]

Try carryng a bunch of yummy dog treats whenever you're out for a walk which you can throw at the approaching dog. They will almost always interrupts the dog's approach giving you time to make a quick getaway!

Darn it, why can I NEVER remember to do this when actually in a situation where it probably would have worked! Had a treat bag full of treats too.

Situtation arose about 15 minutes ago

Sorry, completely OT.

I've never thought of doing this! Not sure why as I always have treats! Thanks I will remember this one

This is one reason why I love chicken chunkers, they smell strong, they are largish and white so therefore easily seen in grass, plus they are oval and sometimes the movement of them rolling catches the dogs attention. Many dogs that are approaching your dog don't get that you are throwing treats out for them, having the appealing scent and visibility helps with them learning this. Plus being able to see them easily enables you to spread the handful of food further so therefore takes the dog longer to get them all. The only thing with this is you need to make sure you can go somewhere where the dog can't follow you to because it is probable that they will. I have had put myself in someone's front yard and then had to explain what I was doing to a very nice stranger who probably thought I was a complete nutter but it prevented my dog from nailing the other very persistant dog and my training didn't get completely undone.

Another altenative is get in your car and drive to somewhere quiet. I have to do this to do the opposite, to socialise my dogs to urban streets. It is a pain but worth it.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Coming into this late, very busy time of year but anyway...

Agility DOgs: Time specific - this is where I have an query. Do you think it is possible to set time frames on goals when dealing with escalating aggression?

K9: I dont think it is wise to set a time "limit" on pschological changes taking place but, being time aware helps us keep a rein on how well the specific program is working, so for me it isnt about how long it will take for the dogs feelings to change, but more what effect has occured in x amount of time on this program.

AD: In this case the handler is going to have to be good enough to prevent the unwanted behaviour by making sure the dog is ready and proofed before moving to the next step in the process.

K9: Be it thatI would guess that other dogs will be in the class or vacinity, I would also recommend a muzzle as no handler is good enough to be on the whole time, and if another dog runs over the aggressive dog, accidents can happen and it never goes down well when someones dog is aggressed upon in a class environment.

[abed]

The dog is in front of you at the end of the leash, pulling and barking aggressively, what do you do at that point where the dog has lost the plot???.

As I mentioned previously, I would have a DD dollar on that dog and block it with a firm no and release it when it regained composure. I am interested in how you would tackle the same situation???

Firstly, no learning is occuring once the dog is pumped full of adrenaline and cortisol during an aggressive fire up, so there is no point doing anything really! Dog isn't listening nor learning anything at that time, so any reaction from you is both futile, useless and too late.

I would

- mentally thank my dog for letting me know that I was either too close to another dog or allowed another dog to get to close to us

- take the dog away as quickly as possible - U-turn or back-away (only if pre-conditioned)- no negotiations here.

- make a mental note of what I wasn't paying attention to prior to the incident ie the dog's micro behaviours, the environment, why I wasn't watching etc, whilst cursing and swearing at my stupidity

- wait patiently until the dog calms down and then continue working on the CC exercises and adhere to threshold as best as possible.

- keep my training sessions short and sweet

Sorry if there are no miraculous techniques here however this is what I found works best for the dogs and handlers I work with each week in class and is something that almost all handlers are capable of doing.

I beg to differ on the assumption that a dog is incapable of learning or listening during an aggressive light up which I don't think is entirely true. A protection dog will out on command when pumped up in defensive fighting drive under attack from a decoy/offender and a multitude of other high drive engagements. I think that dogs can obey and learn under adverse conditions and drive levels. Some say in theory they can't, but theory isn't always reflective in practice.

I agree with your other concepts which I think work best too, but in the dragging away process, or U turn, the theory there is you are ramping up the dog's aggression level in agitation in the process where the dog could easily redirect back to the handler resulting in a serious bite when yanking a dog around in an aggressive mind set. I think that approach is too close to the wind preceeding a bite if the dog isn't muzzled and quelling the aggressive drive as fast as possible is a safer approach in that instance.

If you block an aggressive lunge and episode with a DD collar as I do, wheather or not the dog stops lunging by learning that lunging isn't permitted or the dog is avoiding a correction it's still coherent enough to make a choice when faced with a reactive stumulus so I am thinking it must have learned something otherwise the dog would keep lunging which they don't after a couple of DD collar blocks then you work on the process as you have explained.

The difference is, your dog if unfortunate enough to be faced with an aggressive stimulus exceeding the threshhold during the desensitsation process will continue to lunge in aggression, mine doesn't lunge in the same circumstances with all other training processess being equal how does allowing the dog to continue lunging if it wishes, produce more consistancy in the result???. In other words, in your system, the dog has never been taught that aggressive lunging is a top level bad behaviour. I am thinking given that you can't ever really trust a recovering aggressor, wouldn't a situation down the track be a bit more reliable if say the dog did think about a lunge and bite with a collar shy dog than one that has never experienced a hard correction for aggressive behaviour???.

To be really honest, I don't see in a correction free desensitisation process that the dog ever learns that aggression is not a tolorated behaviour. I think without a correction, the dog will continue to think a lunge is ok if nothing better is on offer..........yes, maybe, no

[Kelpie-i]

I beg to differ on the assumption that a dog is incapable of learning or listening during an aggressive light up which I don't think is entirely true.

I don't usually like to argue with scientific research and facts This is not something I just dreamed up.

If you block an aggressive lunge and episode with a DD collar as I do

I'm not sure who your clients usually are, but I can tell you that Mrs Citizen with her DA dachshund would promptly walk out of my school if I proceeded to hang her dog with a DD collar and then ask her to do same . Sorry abed, but I need to work with methods that the average dog owner is willing and able to do, regardless of dog breed and severity of the aggression. My aim is for that owner to come away with good handling and coping techniques with permanent results, and the way I and my instructors work with these dogs seems to work for most of them.

I didn't want to get into a debate of methods...seriously over that on DOL ...you will always cater to your own audience, and my audience is the average dog owner and their kids