Retrieving & Field Training Talk

[Mason_Gibbs]

My boy is also not into tug much

[RallyValley]

Hi,

I need a bit of advice from ppl who are familiar with field trials, retrieving work.

Ive got a Brittany pup that Im planning on showing, obedience trialling. Im not sure if I want to give the retrieving side of things a go, obedience titles are my main goal, but Im unsure about the use of tug games with hhim as a reward/ play. Ive heard that its not wise to use tug games with the gun dogs if you want to use them as a gun dog (my husband does have a bit of a dream of taking Obi out hunting one day).I dont want to start tug if it will hurt him chances in these type of trials if I do want to give them a go one day?

What do you use as a play reward/ motivator if not tugging, he seems to love it but Ive delibrately not done any just in case.

I think theres a few retrieving ppl here who have gone through the obedience rings before field work so is it relativly easy to transition to a whistle? and also is there stuff I can do to encourage his natural hunting instinct while still doing my obedience work? Im sure there is a way I can have him capable of performing both in the obedience ring and then on to field work? Or is it really tough? I know he would enjoy getting out in the paddocks eventually

Ok so field trials are different to retrieving trials.

In retrieving the dog is soley doing retrieves - the retrieves are more complex and testing then the retrieves in the field trials.

In Utility Gundog field trials the dogs are expected to find (hunt), stop and point steady then flush (but not chase) wild live quail. At the end of the trial retrieves are done in water and on land to test the dogs retrieving ability. The dogs work in pairs out in the field and have to respect when the other dog points by standing steady and to not hunt over the same terrain as them.

Many will beg to differ here but as agility is my main goal I encouraged Zora to tug and she likes the game, she also has a good hold and does not mouth things when she is in a 'holding' situation. We have a word to start a tug game, so she knows when its ok to tug. If you are unsure and it is not a big motivator for Obi don't teach it,

Field work and retrieving work have different whistle cues. For the field trials they need a recall cue, a 'woah' cue and a little pip to let them know you are giving them a new direction. Retrieving whistles are much more complex, so I can't pretend to explain that.

The only thing that IMO encourages natural hunting (NOT retrieving but finding birds in a paddock hunting) is getting out there. They need exposure to planted quails then once they learn the game they need to get out with an experienced dog and go hunting. Once they click thats it - you have the desire. Zora was an absolute brat after her season and would not work at all except when I took her out in the field - there was no stopping her! She knew she was hunting and went into full hunting mode, she found a few quails of her own, pointed, backed and honoured. She still has lots of work to go but she understands her job now.

As you know Zora is also training for obedience rings and it does not interfere at all with the field work, they learn the difference. In fact a good field dog needs to know how to heel, recall, stand and sit to a gunshot so all obedience behaviours. Don't stress and just keep training as you are!

The only warning I have is field training means many 5/6am starts in Toodyay/Goomalling areas and is only on weekend mornings when you can find someone who knows a farmer that will let you use their farm. There is a training day this Sunday if you want me to PM the details but I think you have football?

Edited April 13, 2012 by RallyValley

[Sayreovi]

Two of my Tollers love to tug, they play tug alot of the time and I can reward with a tug as well in high drive sports like agility and flyball but they still have a soft mouth and although I don't trial in this sport yet (don't have enough time to train it to trial standard at the moment ) I have entered one in a RATG this weekend so it certainly hasn't made her have a hard mouth :)

[MishB]

Hi,

I need a bit of advice from ppl who are familiar with field trials, retrieving work.

Ive got a Brittany pup that Im planning on showing, obedience trialling. Im not sure if I want to give the retrieving side of things a go, obedience titles are my main goal, but Im unsure about the use of tug games with hhim as a reward/ play. Ive heard that its not wise to use tug games with the gun dogs if you want to use them as a gun dog (my husband does have a bit of a dream of taking Obi out hunting one day).I dont want to start tug if it will hurt him chances in these type of trials if I do want to give them a go one day?

What do you use as a play reward/ motivator if not tugging, he seems to love it but Ive delibrately not done any just in case.

I think theres a few retrieving ppl here who have gone through the obedience rings before field work so is it relativly easy to transition to a whistle? and also is there stuff I can do to encourage his natural hunting instinct while still doing my obedience work? Im sure there is a way I can have him capable of performing both in the obedience ring and then on to field work? Or is it really tough? I know he would enjoy getting out in the paddocks eventually

Ok so field trials are different to retrieving trials.

In retrieving the dog is soley doing retrieves - the retrieves are more complex and testing then the retrieves in the field trials.

In Utility Gundog field trials the dogs are expected to find (hunt), stop and point steady then flush (but not chase) wild live quail. At the end of the trial retrieves are done in water and on land to test the dogs retrieving ability. The dogs work in pairs out in the field and have to respect when the other dog points by standing steady and to not hunt over the same terrain as them.

Many will beg to differ here but as agility is my main goal I encouraged Zora to tug and she likes the game, she also has a good hold and does not mouth things when she is in a 'holding' situation. We have a word to start a tug game, so she knows when its ok to tug. If you are unsure and it is not a big motivator for Obi don't teach it,

Field work and retrieving work have different whistle cues. For the field trials they need a recall cue, a 'woah' cue and a little pip to let them know you are giving them a new direction. Retrieving whistles are much more complex, so I can't pretend to explain that.

The only thing that IMO encourages natural hunting (NOT retrieving but finding birds in a paddock hunting) is getting out there. They need exposure to planted quails then once they learn the game they need to get out with an experienced dog and go hunting. Once they click thats it - you have the desire. Zora was an absolute brat after her season and would not work at all except when I took her out in the field - there was no stopping her! She knew she was hunting and went into full hunting mode, she found a few quails of her own, pointed, backed and honoured. She still has lots of work to go but she understands her job now.

As you know Zora is also training for obedience rings and it does not interfere at all with the field work, they learn the difference. In fact a good field dog needs to know how to heel, recall, stand and sit to a gunshot so all obedience behaviours. Don't stress and just keep training as you are!

The only warning I have is field training means many 5/6am starts in Toodyay/Goomalling areas and is only on weekend mornings when you can find someone who knows a farmer that will let you use their farm. There is a training day this Sunday if you want me to PM the details but I think you have football?

Bugger, Ive got Jacksons bloody 12th birthday party this Sunday, no footy for another weekend, I would have loved to go

Although the early mornings dont sound too good, Im so not a morning person

Edited April 13, 2012 by MishB

[RallyValley]

Hi,

I need a bit of advice from ppl who are familiar with field trials, retrieving work.

Ive got a Brittany pup that Im planning on showing, obedience trialling. Im not sure if I want to give the retrieving side of things a go, obedience titles are my main goal, but Im unsure about the use of tug games with hhim as a reward/ play. Ive heard that its not wise to use tug games with the gun dogs if you want to use them as a gun dog (my husband does have a bit of a dream of taking Obi out hunting one day).I dont want to start tug if it will hurt him chances in these type of trials if I do want to give them a go one day?

What do you use as a play reward/ motivator if not tugging, he seems to love it but Ive delibrately not done any just in case.

I think theres a few retrieving ppl here who have gone through the obedience rings before field work so is it relativly easy to transition to a whistle? and also is there stuff I can do to encourage his natural hunting instinct while still doing my obedience work? Im sure there is a way I can have him capable of performing both in the obedience ring and then on to field work? Or is it really tough? I know he would enjoy getting out in the paddocks eventually

Ok so field trials are different to retrieving trials.

In retrieving the dog is soley doing retrieves - the retrieves are more complex and testing then the retrieves in the field trials.

In Utility Gundog field trials the dogs are expected to find (hunt), stop and point steady then flush (but not chase) wild live quail. At the end of the trial retrieves are done in water and on land to test the dogs retrieving ability. The dogs work in pairs out in the field and have to respect when the other dog points by standing steady and to not hunt over the same terrain as them.

Many will beg to differ here but as agility is my main goal I encouraged Zora to tug and she likes the game, she also has a good hold and does not mouth things when she is in a 'holding' situation. We have a word to start a tug game, so she knows when its ok to tug. If you are unsure and it is not a big motivator for Obi don't teach it,

Field work and retrieving work have different whistle cues. For the field trials they need a recall cue, a 'woah' cue and a little pip to let them know you are giving them a new direction. Retrieving whistles are much more complex, so I can't pretend to explain that.

The only thing that IMO encourages natural hunting (NOT retrieving but finding birds in a paddock hunting) is getting out there. They need exposure to planted quails then once they learn the game they need to get out with an experienced dog and go hunting. Once they click thats it - you have the desire. Zora was an absolute brat after her season and would not work at all except when I took her out in the field - there was no stopping her! She knew she was hunting and went into full hunting mode, she found a few quails of her own, pointed, backed and honoured. She still has lots of work to go but she understands her job now.

As you know Zora is also training for obedience rings and it does not interfere at all with the field work, they learn the difference. In fact a good field dog needs to know how to heel, recall, stand and sit to a gunshot so all obedience behaviours. Don't stress and just keep training as you are!

The only warning I have is field training means many 5/6am starts in Toodyay/Goomalling areas and is only on weekend mornings when you can find someone who knows a farmer that will let you use their farm. There is a training day this Sunday if you want me to PM the details but I think you have football?

Bugger, Ive got Jacksons bloody 12th birthday party this Sunday, no footy for another weekend, I would have loved to go

Although the early mornings dont sound too good, Im so not a morning person

I can't go this weekend either so I am pretty annoyed.

I just sent you an email with the details of some field mentors that also compete in retrieving. :)

[fetchindawgs]

MishB you are the only one that can decide what you want from your dog, and as RV says there are differences in field trialing and retrieving trialing.

If you are aiming at doing retrieving trials sometime in the future, then I would not play tug with the dog. You are only encouraging him to hold on tight and not let go. It baffles me why agility dogs have to have a tug game as a reward after doing an agility course. I never did it with my dog, and still would not if I was competing there. Surely, a food reward, pat & good dog, or a play fetch of a toy would be sufficient.

For people beginning training their dogs for retrieving, we encourage a soft mouth in the dogs, so this does mean that no tug games of any kind should be played with them. In retrieving the dog is required to fetch game and hold it gently and bring it back to the handler and present it. All, with a soft mouth. Occasionally you will see a dog that, with all the excitement of the retrieve, is reluctant to release the game, resulting in damage and often, elimination of the dog. It is very disheartening for the handler when the retrieve has been done beautifully, only to be marred by this kind of behaviour at the end.

[The Spotted Devil]

Just on the agility side of tugging it's not essential but it's really nice to have. My Dalmatian hated tugging and I have carefully fostered him to love it. I certainly have done a lot of food training with him so it can be done. However since his tugging has really improved (to the point where he takes tugging as a reward not just pre-running) his speed and focus and forward momentum has improved out of sight not to mention his "staying power" when trialling. And I am a tug sceptic! As for Em, I play a little tug with her at home but you need a very intense tug for it to be effective in agility and I'm not prepared to go down that path at the moment with such a novice retrieving dog (and handler!) I tend to throw cheese cubes to drive the dogs forward as it's easy to see and they are well versed with the 2 food game. I'm not mad on tossing a ball or similar as it's not as interactive as a tug toy and is harder to toss into the reinforcement zone (as it takes off).

[Sayreovi]

Well our first RATG and we failed shockingly....though none of it was her fault.

Our first retrieve was stupidly hard dogs couldn't see where the bumper landed (I couldn't see where it landed!) they had too run down into a ditch full of water cross through fairly thick vegetation and then had to climb a massive rocky dirt hill. Then finally search through numerous ditches until hopefully they found it. Several dogs couldn't find it and some even had to be whistled for direction.

I really shouldn't have even bothered, I knew Jovi would have no chance as we have never trained for anything like that and everything was against her, seeing as at the training day our examples of what would be required was slightly hilly and little to no vegetation. I had trained her for that level and she can do retrieves without seeing it landing but I was a bit disappointed in the difficulty of the run for Novice dogs.

She ran out nicely and crossed the water but had no idea that she had to climb this massive (to her) wall :laugh: She kept searching in the vegetation and water but I had to call her back.

So yeah, I will probably give it another go but not for a long time. I don't have time to train for something at the above level and if I did I might as well train for actual trials.

Edited April 15, 2012 by tollersowned

[Mason_Gibbs]

My dog also battled to see where the dummy landed but since the RATG we have practiced with a bumper x2 and it's really helped :)

[The Spotted Devil]

Well our first RATG and we failed shockingly....though none of it was her fault.

Our first retrieve was stupidly hard dogs couldn't see where the bumper landed (I couldn't see where it landed!) they had too run down into a ditch full of water cross through fairly thick vegetation and then had to climb a massive rocky dirt hill. Then finally search through numerous ditches until hopefully they found it. Several dogs couldn't find it and some even had to be whistled for direction.

I really shouldn't have even bothered, I knew Jovi would have no chance as we have never trained for anything like that and everything was against her, seeing as at the training day our examples of what would be required was slightly hilly and little to no vegetation. I had trained her for that level and she can do retrieves without seeing it landing but I was a bit disappointed in the difficulty of the run for Novice dogs.

She ran out nicely and crossed the water but had no idea that she had to climb this massive (to her) wall :laugh: She kept searching in the vegetation and water but I had to call her back.

So yeah, I will probably give it another go but not for a long time. I don't have time to train for something at the above level and if I did I might as well train for actual trials.

Don't get too disheartened TO - the terrain and cover is what makes retrieving such a difficult sport to train for. The amount of cover is so variable too - depends on the time of year, rainfall etc. I suspect I know where you did the first retrieve as KCC is pretty limited. It's a huge step up from RATG to Novice so I wouldn't write the RATG off completely either. However, it does take a big commitment in terms of time to train for it. Plenty of people around who will help you out if you want to And failing is not trying so you didn't fail.

[Staff'n'Toller]

How many dogs got through TO?

[Sayreovi]

Don't get too disheartened TO - the terrain and cover is what makes retrieving such a difficult sport to train for. The amount of cover is so variable too - depends on the time of year, rainfall etc. I suspect I know where you did the first retrieve as KCC is pretty limited. It's a huge step up from RATG to Novice so I wouldn't write the RATG off completely either. However, it does take a big commitment in terms of time to train for it. Plenty of people around who will help you out if you want to And failing is not trying so you didn't fail.

Thanks, yeah it's a hard sport to train for I never thought it was easy, it's just disappointing thinking I trained her well to a level I thought she was meant to be at and then get thrown this curve ball. I hate watching her not do well and getting frustrated.

How many dogs got through TO?

Not sure, I didn't stick around to watch the second retrieve, was too tired and too hot :laugh:

Be interesting too know though

[RubyStar]

Well done, TO! You gave it a go so pat on the back for that for sure! The RATG isn't easy, the marks are challenging for Novice dogs because cover is being utilised and barriers out there to the dog, but it isn't impossible. Keep at it!

Well, I took the plunge myself today. After faffing about for too long, I decided to enter Ruby in her first Novice Retrieving trial

Well aware we weren't ready through a severe lack of training in those conditions, I thought what better way to expose her to what she needs to tackle than just enter and use it as a paid training round :)

I was nervous as anything. Thought it might actually be the first time I throw up from nervousness! But the second we heeled off the starting pegs, the nerves mostly flew away. I did get nervous again between runs But it soon disappeared after the lead came off - not sure why!

The first run she did what a lot of the dogs did and ran along the treeline instead of towards the mark, and Ruby couldn't get herself back on track after deviating so far. She tried her little heart out, kept searching, I called her in, sent her again, off she flew, but no luck, so I called her in again and heeled her back. She deserved a jackpot still after working her booty off, I was so happy with her. Her heeling was nice, steady as a rock, enthusiasm was there, just lacking experience.

The second run looked difficult. There was a steep decline down to the firing point around a bend, then they had to be sent down long grass/bush, into water, and into thick scrub on the other side where the bird landed. Nice clear view of the mark between a small break in the trees/scrub, and off Ruby zoomed down the embankment and to the other side of the water, then she shot off her right and I couldn't see her again. I heard her enter the water again and she came back to this side and hunted. I called her in and left it at that. So pleased that she listened to her whistle recall in both those runs, we've never put it to the test out in the field, only on the oval. She may not have brought the birds back, but I was pleased as punch with all her efforts because for one, I didn't expect any birds brought back today and two, she exceeded my expectations in everything else!

We did the third run anyway and I prayed for her sake that she could get this bird because I think she needed the confidence boost of bringing something back. It was a water run with a small amount of swimming. The bird landed on the other side of a huge log that I suspected would be Ruby's downfall. Out she went (and took a lovely straight line directly into the water instead of running the bank immediately to my right that was more luck than training ) She hit the log and hunted a little there, and in my head I'm going please please please look over the other side! She must have heard my mental thoughts because she climbed up the log to have a little look around and spotted the bird on the other side, yippeeee!!!!!! Down she went, disappeared for what seemed like an eternity (I have no idea how much swimming was involved in retrieving it, all I know is it made a mighty splash when it landed!) She finally reappeared, birdie in mouth, and back she came to deliver nicely. As we were already out, and she needed the confidence boost, I made sure I called out to her what a good girl she was when she reappeared with that bird, and up until she delivered. To say I am over the moon she brought a bird back is an understatement! And she knew she did good too, couldn't wipe the smile off her face!!

So our first trialling experience is over, phew! And I can't wait to do it all again!!!

Edited April 15, 2012 by RubyStar

[Mason_Gibbs]

Congrats RS ! I'm not brave enough yet to enter lol

[RubyStar]

Give it a go, MG

[The Spotted Devil]

Good on you for giving it a whirl RS Sounds like you had a fun day! It's pretty hard as a newbie to the sport to feel that you are EVER ready to enter I reckon :laugh:

We are off to Ballarat this weekend and the weather is looking ok for camping!

Edited April 16, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[SparkyTansy]

Well done everyone particularly those who gave their first trial a go!! RS - all I can say is... it's about time!! glad you did it!!

[RubyStar]

Good on you for giving it a whirl RS Sounds like you had a fun day! It's pretty hard as a newbie to the sport to feel that you are EVER ready to enter I reckon :laugh:

We are off to Ballarat this weekend and the weather is looking ok for camping!

Yep it certainly was fun! Wasn't fun with lack of liquids, though I ended up dehydrated and with a pounding headache by lunchtime. I must remember to keep the fluids up next time!

Well done everyone particularly those who gave their first trial a go!! RS - all I can say is... it's about time!! glad you did it!!

:laugh: Thanks, ST. So when are we getting back to meeting up for some training? I'm keen when you are!

[FHRP]

Well, I took the plunge myself today. After faffing about for too long, I decided to enter Ruby in her first Novice Retrieving trial

Great stuff RS! So glad you got so many positives out of the day too :D See, it's not that scary after all!!

[Mason_Gibbs]

Give it a go, MG

I will do once we are both more comfy with birds and the gun. Mason hasn't had the gun fired over him before he has just heard the rifles on the farm which he wasn't happy with but they were very loud!