Retrieving & Field Training Talk

[fetchindawgs]

To me Retrieving is not testing the versatility of my dog, just one task it can do. Field training is very time consuming, to train for retrieving trials as well would mean giving up agility or obedience...

Don't quite understand your logic there RV ?? A really versatile dog would be one that COULD do field and retrieving trials.

I've been to a field trial and whilst I didn't find it an exciting sport, I did marvel at the way the dogs backed each other. It was truly fantastic to see the good dogs when they worked. Retrieving is a much more exciting sport, probably because it is faster. A lot more is required of the handler than in field trialing, and obedience and response from the dog is all important. Excellent marking ability, a good nose, bravery and a willing attitude are all important to the retriever. Obedient to the whistle and voice and able to take directions, be steady to the gun, leave game when instructed, be able to track game, swim across flowing rivers, climb rocky cliffs, jump into deep water, negotiate heavy cover in a straight line, and, find their way back to the handler with the game held gently in their mouth; all of this is required of a retriever, which makes them one hell of a versatile dog in my eyes.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Is there a field trial near perth i could go watch to see what the dogs do? Would bd interested to sed what its like compared to retrieving

[FHRP]

Retrieving is a much more exciting sport, probably because it is faster.

That's your opinion :) I disagree.

A lot more is required of the handler than in field trialing, and obedience and response from the dog is all important. Excellent marking ability, a good nose, bravery and a willing attitude are all important to the retriever. Obedient to the whistle and voice and able to take directions, be steady to the gun, leave game when instructed, be able to track game, swim across flowing rivers, climb rocky cliffs, jump into deep water, negotiate heavy cover in a straight line, and, find their way back to the handler with the game held gently in their mouth; all of this is required of a retriever, which makes them one hell of a versatile dog in my eyes.

All of the above is required of a Utility Gundog in field trials, and more! The retrieve is only a small part of what a HPR was bred to do and what is required in field trials. To truly prove the versatility of our utility gundogs is to demonstrate and test every aspect of it's purpose - to hunt, point and retrieve game. If you had to choose one sport to test the utility gundog breeds, IMO it would have to be field trials. If I had a dedicated Retriever breed I probably wouldn't look beyond retrieving trials.

I get such a thrill out of watching a good pointing breed in the field, covering it's ground efficiently, locating game, drawing in on the game or roading when necessary, staunch and stylish on point until the handler arrives, flushing cleanly and steady to both flush and shot. Completeting a clean retrieve on a bird a quarter the size of a pigeon which may have moved from it's area of fall and presenting it softly the the handler, taking a direct line there and back. Seeing it work with a bracemate with the same style that backs immediately. That's magic to me.

[fetchindawgs]

Retrieving is a much more exciting sport, probably because it is faster.

That's your opinion :) I disagree.

A lot more is required of the handler than in field trialing, and obedience and response from the dog is all important. Excellent marking ability, a good nose, bravery and a willing attitude are all important to the retriever. Obedient to the whistle and voice and able to take directions, be steady to the gun, leave game when instructed, be able to track game, swim across flowing rivers, climb rocky cliffs, jump into deep water, negotiate heavy cover in a straight line, and, find their way back to the handler with the game held gently in their mouth; all of this is required of a retriever, which makes them one hell of a versatile dog in my eyes.

All of the above is required of a Utility Gundog in field trials, and more! The retrieve is only a small part of what a HPR was bred to do and what is required in field trials. To truly prove the versatility of our utility gundogs is to demonstrate and test every aspect of it's purpose - to hunt, point and retrieve game. If you had to choose one sport to test the utility gundog breeds, IMO it would have to be field trials. If I had a dedicated Retriever breed I probably wouldn't look beyond retrieving trials.

I get such a thrill out of watching a good pointing breed in the field, covering it's ground efficiently, locating game, drawing in on the game or roading when necessary, staunch and stylish on point until the handler arrives, flushing cleanly and steady to both flush and shot. Completeting a clean retrieve on a bird a quarter the size of a pigeon which may have moved from it's area of fall and presenting it softly the the handler, taking a direct line there and back. Seeing it work with a bracemate with the same style that backs immediately. That's magic to me.

You are correct in one thing FHRP, all the comments on here are personal opinions, and thank goodness we all have different ones, otherwise there would be no cause for conversation or debate on various subjects. Versatility is obviously in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty I suppose. And, while I admire the field trialing dogs for their talents, and, really do enjoy watching them, I do not have an eligible dog for the sport so cannot compete in W.A. I'm pretty sure I have heard of Labradors & Goldens competing in field trials in the Eastern States, but I may be wrong.

The field trial that I went to was obviously very different to what you describe FHRP. It was in a stubble paddock (several of them), and two dogs worked whilst everyone trundled along well behind, following. The dogs quartered in front of the handlers and the judge, hunting out quail. When one dog scented game, it went onto point and the other dog was supposed to stop and back it. The handler of the dog on point then approached their dog and instructed it to flush the game. Although I am not involved in the sport I think from memory the handlers are not allowed to shoot the game over here (someone correct me if this isn't the case). I didn't see dogs negotiating cliffs, rivers, gullys etc.

Each to his own I say, but any dog that does one discipline isn't that versatile, they are doing exactly what they are trained for. But, doing two, three or four disciplines really shows a versatile dog, so, RV doing her field trials, obedience and agility with Zora is being versatile, especially if they do well at it. I don't count showing as part of it, by the way. In W.A. at least, there are probably one third to a half of dogs competing in field or retrieving that compete in other sporty disciplines, and do quite well at both. They are versatile dogs !

[fetchindawgs]

Is there a field trial near perth i could go watch to see what the dogs do? Would bd interested to sed what its like compared to retrieving

Contact the GunDog Club or GSP Club for dates and venues. Or just ask RV. You will have to travel into the country to see one.

[fetchindawgs]

You could come to Canberra in March too :D

Motel booked!! We are coming!!

Had a nice second trial of the year last weekend. Only competed with Funkie: 1st in Novice Saturday, and 4th Sunday (she did not see 2nd and 3rd birds on Sunday), luckily been working on blinds/straight lines so she kept going, as I pondered whether to blow whistle and help.

Her litter brother won Restricted.

Her litter sister won All Age.

Her other competing litter sister, in All age, finished on Sunday also.

See ya in Canberrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaa

Well done LL with all of the pups. RW is certainly doing well with his I see. Glad to see you are getting out to trials again with the dogs. How is "long suffering husband" ?

Do you think you will be up to coming over for the Nationals this year ? Sounds like heaps of people are planning the trip over. Might see you in October, we are taking a month holiday over your way.

[FHRP]

You are correct in one thing FHRP, all the comments on here are personal opinions, and thank goodness we all have different ones, otherwise there would be no cause for conversation or debate on various subjects.

Versatility is obviously in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty I suppose. And, while I admire the field trialing dogs for their talents, and, really do enjoy watching them, I do not have an eligible dog for the sport so cannot compete in W.A. I'm pretty sure I have heard of Labradors & Goldens competing in field trials in the Eastern States, but I may be wrong.

Your dogs are eligible to compete in Spaniel and Retriever trials, I do not know if they are offered in WA currently or not but they are an ANKC sport. They are quite different to Utility Field trials.

The field trial that I went to was obviously very different to what you describe FHRP. It was in a stubble paddock (several of them), and two dogs worked whilst everyone trundled along well behind, following. The dogs quartered in front of the handlers and the judge, hunting out quail. When one dog scented game, it went onto point and the other dog was supposed to stop and back it. The handler of the dog on point then approached their dog and instructed it to flush the game. Although I am not involved in the sport I think from memory the handlers are not allowed to shoot the game over here (someone correct me if this isn't the case). I didn't see dogs negotiating cliffs, rivers, gullys etc.

Sounds like a lot of field trials, but I also don't think you have appeciated the finer points of the sport, just as someone who watches a retrieving trial may not appreciate the finer points and the hard work gone into training the dog. Yes, they are usually run in flat paddocks, which suits me fine with all the walking ;) However I have trained in very hill terrain and trials could certainly be held there. Did you see the retrieves at the end of the trial? There is always a water retrieve at the end of a Utility field trial and you are correct that quail can no longer be taken in trials in WA so there is also a land retrieve, RV would have better details about that than me. The water retrieve can be in any body of water with any sort of land to negotiate that you could find in a retrieving trial. The higher the stake, the harder the retrieve/s. The Novice Field Trials I have done the water retrieve has been at beginner to Novice RT standard and the open trial we have done was on the harder side of Novice (still a single mark but with angle entry across a river with the bird landing in logs). However Championship stakes and maybe All Age?? also have a blind and multiple retrieves. Is it common to negotiate cliffs? No, I don't think so, but it isn't ruled out. And no, it's not going to be All Age level, but this is just a small part of what a Utility Gundog does.

Each to his own I say, but any dog that does one discipline isn't that versatile, they are doing exactly what they are trained for. But, doing two, three or four disciplines really shows a versatile dog, so, RV doing her field trials, obedience and agility with Zora is being versatile, especially if they do well at it. I don't count showing as part of it, by the way. In W.A. at least, there are probably one third to a half of dogs competing in field or retrieving that compete in other sporty disciplines, and do quite well at both. They are versatile dogs !

Agree absolutely! My own dogs are titled in various disciplines - retrieving, obedience, agility, utility ability tests, and field (Polo only) as well as show (Rogan only), although I agree that doesn't count ;) However if choosing between Retrieving and Field Trials with a Utility Gundog the Field Trials will demonstrate the versaility as a hunting dog more than Retrieving trials, IMO :)

Edited March 4, 2012 by FHRP

[The Spotted Devil]

We entered the ESS club's RATG today. My main reason was to expose Em to some different grounds. The club used standard canvas type dummies for all dogs which I think is an improvement on people supplying their own.

Em's heeling was AWFUL in the obedience test :laugh: She was level with me but a way out to the left. Apparently there were lots of bunnies in the area which accounts for the distraction. Recall was really good.

First mark was about 50m - down the hill, through a gully with fairly heavy cover and (hidden) water and up the other side, with the dummy landing in moderate cover. Em's heeling between the pegs was much improved, she marked the fall well and was steady. I was really pleased with how she 'attacked' the cover - she didn't hesitate or even acknowledge it which is great progress. She flew up the hill and slightly over ran the mark. Hunted systematically so I left her to it - I reckon she picked up the scent of every dummy that had fallen on her way to finding hers. She hesitated before picking up the dummy as it was quite unfamiliar. Bolted straight back to me, through the creek and then dropped the dummy - needed a couple of reminders but picked it up and delivered it nicely. Probably a hangover from last weekend and a lack of training this week (4 big trees down on house, water tank, fences etc amongst other things) but cost us 50% of our points so we only got 15/30.

Second mark was about 70m, minimal cover, ground slightly undulating. I think the distance threw a lot of dogs but it was an easy one for Em - she flew out, picked it up and bolted back, delivering it beautifully.

She must have scored well on that one as we ended up with 81 points overall and 4th place. 3rd was 82, 2nd was 83 and 1st was 88. So a nice positive experience for her and her confidence in tackling novel cover is growing :)

Edited March 4, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[RallyValley]

Wow I didn't mean to offend anyone I really admire retrieving dogs and if I had a Retriever breed I would be doing Retrieving Trials :) When I say versatile I mean that my Brittany (and all other Utility Gundogs) are H-P-R breeds, they were bred to hunt the bird out, point it and retrieve it. To me doing only the last part of the equation is not testing the true versatility of my dog.

A good handler in the field will not be looking busy, that's because they have trained their dog and trust the dog to locate the birds, I don't know about you but I can't smell out a tiny button quail in a massive stubble paddock so I won't interfere unless needed ;) A good field dog should also be obedient - their recall should be instant, they should stop on a whistle, they will take direction as to which area to hunt in - you cannot have two dogs in the brace covering the same ground, they do have to do a water retrieve across a river and a land retrieve to complete the trial which includes marking game and returning it with no signs of damage to the game. They must also sit steady, off leash 3-5 meters from the handler while the other dog in the brace completes a retrieve no more then 7 meters away.

The pool of field trial dogs in WA is small but the community here is doing their best to improve the quality of the work and it has been getting better. We have non shooting trials in WA so we do not break the law, so we are required to do two retrieves at the end of the trial, they are done on pidgeons from dummy launchers, they are to be in cover.

You won't see usually dogs negotiating cliffs, rivers and gullys when looking for quail - quails usually live in the wheat stubble and farmers generally only plant wheat on flat land. Saying that I have been at a trial where the whole party had to cross through a dry river gully, the dogs just blew through as they knew better then to look for quail there.

I do believe in a general sense that doing other sports with my dog, including showing, agility and obedience is a better show of her versatility.

[RallyValley]

We entered the ESS club's RATG today. My main reason was to expose Em to some different grounds. The club used standard canvas type dummies for all dogs which I think is an improvement on people supplying their own.

Em's heeling was AWFUL in the obedience test :laugh: She was level with me but a way out to the left. Apparently there were lots of bunnies in the area which accounts for the distraction. Recall was really good.

First mark was about 50m - down the hill, through a gully with fairly heavy cover and (hidden) water and up the other side, with the dummy landing in moderate cover. Em's heeling between the pegs was much improved, she marked the fall well and was steady. I was really pleased with how she 'attacked' the cover - she didn't hesitate or even acknowledge it which is great progress. She flew up the hill and slightly over ran the mark. Hunted systematically so I left her to it - I reckon she picked up the scent of every dummy that had fallen on her way to finding hers. She hesitated before picking up the dummy as it was quite unfamiliar. Bolted straight back to me, through the creek and then dropped the dummy - needed a couple of reminders but picked it up and delivered it nicely. Probably a hangover from last weekend and a lack of training this week (4 big trees down on house, water tank, fences etc amongst other things) but cost us 50% of our points so we only got 15/30.

Second mark was about 70m, minimal cover, ground slightly undulating. I think the distance threw a lot of dogs but it was an easy one for Em - she flew out, picked it up and bolted back, delivering it beautifully.

She must have scored well on that one as we ended up with 81 points overall and 4th place. 3rd was 82, 2nd was 83 and 1st was 88. So a nice positive experience for her and her confidence in tackling novel cover is growing :)

Well done Em!!!! We have a RATG later in the month, Zora is entered, but mostly as a donation - I highly doubt she will be ready ;)

[FHRP]

She must have scored well on that one as we ended up with 81 points overall and 4th place. 3rd was 82, 2nd was 83 and 1st was 88. So a nice positive experience for her and her confidence in tackling novel cover is growing :)

Great stuff TSD & Em!

[RubyStar]

Well done TSD and Em!!!!

WA's first RATG is being held at the end of this month, but at this stage, it is looking like I can't enter

DogsWest still haven't finalised how to go about registering Associate Gundogs, so Millie is still ineligible to enter And as for Ruby, well I am still very concerned about bees this time of year so not sure it's worth entering her. All that and the fact that March is still very warm in Perth, there are most likely snakies still slithering around. I think we will enter the one in April after the retrieving trial that DogsWest have their act together by then!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks - I was really pleased with how she went - she made the hard stuff look easy and the easy stuff look impossible :laugh:

Look forward to all the newbies dipping their toes into the RATG water!

[Mason_Gibbs]

Well done TSD and Em!!!!

WA's first RATG is being held at the end of this month, but at this stage, it is looking like I can't enter

DogsWest still haven't finalised how to go about registering Associate Gundogs, so Millie is still ineligible to enter And as for Ruby, well I am still very concerned about bees this time of year so not sure it's worth entering her. All that and the fact that March is still very warm in Perth, there are most likely snakies still slithering around. I think we will enter the one in April after the retrieving trial that DogsWest have their act together by then!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm planning on entering but not sure if I'm wasting my time as Mason isn't cooperating at all at the moment....

[Mason_Gibbs]

For the RAT when you are heeling up will you lose points for talking to your dog like in obedience

[Livertreats]

For the RAT when you are heeling up will you lose points for talking to your dog like in obedience

I would imagine so, if its the same as retrieving once you take the lead off you are being judged and every time you talk to your dog you loose points.

[fetchindawgs]

Well done TSD and Em!!!!

WA's first RATG is being held at the end of this month, but at this stage, it is looking like I can't enter

DogsWest still haven't finalised how to go about registering Associate Gundogs, so Millie is still ineligible to enter And as for Ruby, well I am still very concerned about bees this time of year so not sure it's worth entering her. All that and the fact that March is still very warm in Perth, there are most likely snakies still slithering around. I think we will enter the one in April after the retrieving trial that DogsWest have their act together by then!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't believe that you are unable to enter Millie. Reading the rules it says that Associate registered dogs can enter as long as the member body deems that they fit the description of breed. Millie sure looks like a Labrador to me. It doesn't say anything about re-registering a dog.

Just reassuring you about bees later in the season. We very rarely are bothered with bees at sites. Flys and ants are more of a nuisance. Because the dogs are staked either in grass or sand, there usually aren't any bees close by. Spring would be the time to be on the lookout when the dandelions are in flower.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Maybe come down on sunday RS check out the bee situation and then you know if she can run or not.

[RubyStar]

Well done TSD and Em!!!!

WA's first RATG is being held at the end of this month, but at this stage, it is looking like I can't enter

DogsWest still haven't finalised how to go about registering Associate Gundogs, so Millie is still ineligible to enter And as for Ruby, well I am still very concerned about bees this time of year so not sure it's worth entering her. All that and the fact that March is still very warm in Perth, there are most likely snakies still slithering around. I think we will enter the one in April after the retrieving trial that DogsWest have their act together by then!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't believe that you are unable to enter Millie. Reading the rules it says that Associate registered dogs can enter as long as the member body deems that they fit the description of breed. Millie sure looks like a Labrador to me. It doesn't say anything about re-registering a dog.

Just reassuring you about bees later in the season. We very rarely are bothered with bees at sites. Flys and ants are more of a nuisance. Because the dogs are staked either in grass or sand, there usually aren't any bees close by. Spring would be the time to be on the lookout when the dandelions are in flower.

Yeah I know about Millie, I'm furious! But what can ya do? Apparently DogsWest are going to go about it like the eastern states are (which is fair enough) which involves providing front on and side on photos then having them assessed. If deemed a gundog, they will be issued a new registration number as Associate Gundog (AG instead of AR). So that is all fine, but this formality should have been finalized long before now!!!!

She certainly looks like a Lab and loves to retrieve like one!

Thanks for the reassurance with bees. If there is a bee around, it will find Ruby! It may look silly but I may resort to crating Ruby in the hide instead of tying her out (enclosed soft crate), for the extra peace of mind. Good thing she isn't allergic to ants because she's been bitten by a few recently, too! :laugh:

Edited March 6, 2012 by RubyStar

[RubyStar]

Maybe come down on sunday RS check out the bee situation and then you know if she can run or not.

When does the training start? This Sunday?