Retrieving & Field Training Talk

[The Spotted Devil]

Refresh my memory Mason but have you tried shaping the hold step by tiny step with a clicker? If I can get my Dalmatian to retrieve and hold, I have no doubt there is a way forward for you. I shaped it in baby steps every night for his dinner and it took ages. Did the same with Em but of course it was a quicker process. Remember if it doesn't work, make it easier, slow down and go back a step. Put the dummy on the ground and reward him for even glancing at it.

ETA: I like to call retrieving the lazy person's sport because the dog does all the running around However it is also the thinking person's sport and the patient person's sport!!!

Edited April 18, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[RubyStar]

He will retrieve the dummy no problem but he will drop it at my feet and if i give it to him from my hand he will again drop it. Have been told not to use the wings until he can hold properly ...

Millie wouldn't take from my hand, either. The only thing she'd take from my hand was food. So I spent ages shaping her hold by placing the item on the ground, and working from there. When she was picking it up, I'd be quick to have my hands under her mouth before she dropped it. Gradually she built up the duration of the hold until one day she held it while sitting there, I had a huuuuuuuuuuge party, she went wow ok now I know what you want! Only once she was reliably picking something up off the ground and holding it until I took it did I start offering her things from my hand (and throwing it). Let him think it is HIS choice to pick it up off the ground. If he is being offered from the hand, he probably feels pressured into taking it and holding. So sit in a chair or on the ground, put the dummy on the ground, and try from there? I now have a retrieving freak, and I never thought I'd EVER get her to retrieve!

Edited April 19, 2011 by RubyStar

[Mason_Gibbs]

Spotted D i have tried with the clicker. This morning i changed my tactics. He loves soft things so i took an old rolled up pair of socks and he will take that from my hand and walk around with it in his mouth, i clicked and treated. He seems to prefer picking it up off the floor though, he is much happier with that

[FHRP]

He will retrieve the dummy no problem but he will drop it at my feet and if i give it to him from my hand he will again drop it. Have been told not to use the wings until he can hold properly ...

What reason has been given for not using Dokken or wings on dummies until he's holding properly? Is he mouthing or crunching dummies?? If after 2 months nothing has changed then you really need to change what you're doing IMO. I don't hesitate to put wings on a dummy for a dog that has more interest in birds than dummies, as long as they aren't going to chew them. With my Vizsla his first 12 - 18 months of training for retrieving trials was on pigeons or winged dummies as he just did not have the interest in plain dummies. He now picks up any sort of dummy (and even plastic bottles in a trial ).

My older Vizsla had absolutely no interest in retrieving, anything, ever. It was a slow process but basically we went through the Shirley Chong method and he became a very reliable retriever for Obedience trials, never failed the Retrieve in Open. He also got through Novice GWT's and several Opens too. He was never destined for Retrieving trials though....

Edited April 19, 2011 by FHRP

[FHRP]

Spotted D i have tried with the clicker. This morning i changed my tactics. He loves soft things so i took an old rolled up pair of socks and he will take that from my hand and walk around with it in his mouth, i clicked and treated. He seems to prefer picking it up off the floor though, he is much happier with that

What type of dummies have you been using previously? Have you tried the cheap little soft puppy dummies you can get form the cheapo shops?

edited to add a picture of the type of dummy I mean. Polo is only a baby in this, about 12 weeks old I think, so the dummy is quite small.

Edited April 19, 2011 by FHRP

[The Spotted Devil]

FHRP - lol @ the plastic bottle

Agreed though - sparking interest with a strong genetic drive is often a winner. Lablover just sent me some pics of me enticing Em into the water. Will post them later but the point is that I needn't have worried so much as soon as she spied a duck on the local lake there was just no stopping her swimming!

ETA: Oh my he's adorable

Edited April 19, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[Mason_Gibbs]

The logic was that if he just drops the dummy with wings on then its bad - he just drops everything its so frustrating and i would give up but if i get him through to open obedience he is going to have to to retrieve a dumbell so i have to keep trying!

[fetchindawgs]

The logic was that if he just drops the dummy with wings on then its bad - he just drops everything its so frustrating and i would give up but if i get him through to open obedience he is going to have to to retrieve a dumbell so i have to keep trying!

I feel the problem isn't Mason, it is his handler. I have never had a problem with any breed of dog I have owned in teaching fetch and hold, and that includes a Dalmation, Rottweiler, GSD and gundogs. I suspect that you are being too soft with your dog, and he knows how to twist you round his little paw, and, get away with it. From previous threads I suspect that Mason is boss, and I'm afraid you will not change anything until you become the dominant party in this relationship. And, I don't mean being harsh or abusive, but by actually having an "I love you, but you will, do what I ask you to" attitude, and not taking any nonsense. All of us must remember these are DOGS, not four legged humans.

Over the years I have had a few different problems with my dogs. Solving them involved the following...... I never gave up; I would practise overcoming the problem in short bursts, and several times a day; I was never cruel or verbally abusive, but gently insisted that my way was the correct way; praise was offered for even small achievements; once a skill was achieved I didn't keep repeating it, but left it till the next session; if there was complete obstinancy or naughtiness then the dog was put away for a period before trying again;

What do you do ??

[Sayreovi]

When a RAT is advertised as no dummies used, I am assuming they are using birds instead?

[Mason_Gibbs]

Fetchingdawgs i do try and do the hold training a few times a day. I dont think i am too soft on him because i have managed to teach him everything else for obedience with no problems. I hold the dummy out to him, he takes it and drops it. When he holds it for longer he gets a toy reward, if i bring food into the equation he drops the dummy even quicker. I have gotten a few opinions at the retrieving training day and loads of people said to keep going like this and he will eventually click. I know i am not the best handler which is why i do come on here and ask for advice.

My dog does not have me wrapped around his paw, he will do what i ask him to.

[Sayreovi]

What about asking him to place the dummy in your hand when you are kneeling when returning from a retrieve? When about is he dropping it?

Edited April 19, 2011 by tollersowned

[Staff'n'Toller]

Does he play regular fetch with you with a ball in free play?

Are you using a bridge/marker word or just producing the toy?

[Mason_Gibbs]

Does he play regular fetch with you with a ball in free play?

Are you using a bridge/marker word or just producing the toy?

He will fetch a ball but drops it just before he reaches me. I make him sit, hold the dummy in front of him and wait him out, click and reward when he holds it even a fraction.

[Mason_Gibbs]

What about asking him to place the dummy in your hand when you are kneeling when returning from a retrieve? When about is he dropping it?

I have not tried that but i have tried turning my back when he is coming back with a toy and he does then hold it for longer.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Does he play regular fetch with you with a ball in free play?

Are you using a bridge/marker word or just producing the toy?

He will fetch a ball but drops it just before he reaches me. I make him sit, hold the dummy in front of him and wait him out, click and reward when he holds it even a fraction.

I'm no expert, but my dogs learn 'pickitup' very early on, if they drop it, they are asked to return it to hand or it doesn't get thrown again.

Sit outside, in a chair, throw the ball once, if he is crazy about fetch he will eventually get frustrated that you don't grab it when he drops it on the return, wait for him to shove it in your lap, then transfer that presentation to your hand.

There is no incentive for him to return anything to hand if he is allowed to drop items. I can see where you would be frustrated, you are right he doesn't understand as he hasn't learned the last part of the exercise.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[RubyStar]

Does he play regular fetch with you with a ball in free play?

Are you using a bridge/marker word or just producing the toy?

He will fetch a ball but drops it just before he reaches me. I make him sit, hold the dummy in front of him and wait him out, click and reward when he holds it even a fraction.

I'd remove the sit from the equation for the time being. It takes some dogs a while to realise that they are in fact capable of sitting AND holding an item in their mouth at the same time

No expert here obviously, but I would still do the sit in a chair thing and place the dummy on the ground to shape the hold, don't offer it to him from your hand until he is offering the pickup. This is how I taught Millie who didn't even have the understanding of picking a toy up in her mouth in play if I threw it, she was a tough nut to crack!

The other thing is if you insist on throwing it before he has a hold, is to kneel down to his level, keep your hands in your lap, and encourage him in (do not ask for a sit! That can come later!) I only recently discovered that in water retrieves I am stretching out my hands to Ruby as she approachese in a nervous flurry to catch it before she drops it, and this is just causing her to avoid coming into me and dropping it. It is too much pressure. I crouched down, kept my hands in my lap, and she came in to me (very early days yet, need to find some water to practice this!) Could be worth a try with your land retrieves.

[mollipop]

Just my thoughts on Mason's problem. I would stop playing fetch with a ball or anything for now.

I had this problem with one of my girls. She would hold a bird but dropped dummies at my feet.

Gspx3 has witnessed this many times and watched my catching skills improve!

Go away now all you nice people who will hate this, but one day I got really cranky with her and pulled her head down to the ground by an ear and told her to pick it up and never drop it again. Didn't pinch her ear, just pulled it. Well after years of dropping dummies the problem was solved by me being firm for once.

Just love that photo of baby Polo, FHRP. Haven't seen those dummies but will keep a look out.

Tollersowned, yes, no dummies means birds.

[The Spotted Devil]

Em and I had a fantastic afternoon out with Lablover and her dogs yesterday I had an early start doing Uni field work then raced home, fed the foster kittens and headed over to LL's place. We drove out to a farm and, although we only had a few hours of good light left, achieved quite a lot....in amongst all the chatting I tied Em up so she could watch the other dogs work and then LL brought out a very fresh, just defrosted pigeon for her. We razzed her up, tossed it for her and she quickly got the idea. It was very novel of course so we gave her a good break, trained the other dogs, more chatting before getting the pigeon out again. Em's eyes nearly fell out of her head!!! It was all I could do to get her collar off. Threw the bird, she fetched it up and brought it back. Delivered on command so I offered her a big piece of cheese and she wouldn't have a bar of it: "Just throw the damn bird, woman!" So I did.

Another rest and then LL suggested some walking singles. Em was bang up for that and nearly had an apoplexy when LL substituted the last dummy for the pigeon. Then LL had me leave the bird up on the hill, walk down and send Em to get it. Em took a nice line but stopped a bit short (novel environment and longer blind than what I usually start with) but she hunted around, picked it up and raced back with it. It was a great confidence builder for her. I was grinning from ear to ear Another rest and then did one more set of walking singles, finishing with a bird.

Once we'd finished all the dogs had a nice run - lots of Em zoomies and discovering the delicacy of cow poo (yuk!) Best day!!!

[FHRP]

Sounds like a fantastic day TSD!! Was that Em's first introduction to birds? I have been out training with my firends ESS this week, trying to cram as much in before their first trials She was doing lovely work on the dummies, but bring that bird out and she gets the same eyes as Em's and that's her only focus too

mollipop I haven't seen those dummies in the shops for a while now. They pop up in the Cheap stores Go-Lo, Clints etc. and my friends know to snaffle them up if they see them. They are great for pups but too light for throwers or anything like that.

Have had a few ups and downs in field training with Polo. Well, really there's only been one day where he seemed to be in a bit of a 'mood' and a bit off The birds have been getting very thin on the ground, must have all moved to Victoria! I can only hope! This morning we had a great session though, several birds around and Polo worked extremely well. I hope I can hold it together for the trial.

[The Spotted Devil]

It was awesome :D Yes, her first look at a bird - you could see the lightbulb come on as her eyes got wider and wider in excitement At one point she picked up the bird when we were finished and wouldn't let LL's big, strong, male dog NEAR it - just picked it up and bolted - really funny!

The good thing is she happily went back to retrieving dummies - phew!

Funny thing about my dogs' 'mood'.....it always reflects mine :D Best wishes for the training - sounds like another challenge!

ETA: Any word on the trial location yet???

Edited April 20, 2011 by The Spotted Devil