Reinforcement Junkie?

[corvus]

I was reading a paper on manic behaviour once. It was about humans, but it described a scenario in which someone could have an overly sensitive reward system. They are super reactive and oriented to positive stimuli and get very frustrated with barriers to goal attainment. I said to my OH "I know this is human psychology, but doesn't that sound like Erik?" He went "Oh yes. That's him all right." I've wondered ever since if a dog can have an over-sensitive reward system. Erik's response to rewards is like nothing I've ever seen. He's a maniac! Just the process or possibility of earning them gets him excited. I can keep it as low key as possible and he still gets this intensity to him as he waits for an opportunity to earn a reward. He seems incapable of calmly accepting a reward. It will look calm, but there'll still be a glitter in his eye. Sometimes I reward him for sleepy eyes and tail down. I'm never quite sure I'm not also rewarding being a coiled spring waiting for the next reward. I don't entirely trust the soft eyes. That tail springs up so fast!

Anyway, just a vague wondering. Do you think a dog can have an over-sensitive reward system? Do you have a reinforcement junkie?

[poodlefan]

Yes, I think its possible. Some dogs clearly have different levels of self control to others. Susanne Clothier believes self control and dealing with frustration are skills dogs need to be taught. I agree.

I also think certain types of training can reinforce any potential that exists for it.

[corvus]

Impulsivity could be a character trait judging by what I've read. Erik has had loads of self-control training that started within days of getting him. It seemed necessary. He would erupt with frenetic activity whenever he wanted something. I am constantly working on his impulse control. He can sit and watch his food bowl for a minute while you walk into other rooms and still wait for his cue to eat, and he can hold a down in front of an open door he desperately wants to go through waiting for the release, but every now and then he'll break. It might take 30 trials, but he'll do it sooner or later. I've had him suddenly leap up and snatch a treat from my hand before I've even asked for him to do something despite months of successfully having him hold a sit while I wave it in front of his nose before giving it to him. It took us ages to get his sit-stays reliable enough to start adding release cues from a distance, and even now I want them more reliable and have gone back to working on it. I think the self-control training was one of the best things I did with Erik. I wonder what he'd be like without it??

[Cosmolo]

I have a dog (maybe even 2) that sounds like that description in your last post Corvus. And i too often wonder what they'd be like without the self control stuff we have done- i doubt it would be pretty

Its interesting too because one of my other dogs is similarly advanced to one of the junkies with various training skills but they have such different styles and levels of reliability. The junkie can be more 'fun' to work but the 'normal' dog is certainly more consistent when looking at a large number of repetitions.

[Lablover]

These threads give me a headache. Too much theory for my tiny brain.

PS I have an oversensitive reward system - to food. My dogs too - they are labradors.

[Vickie]

Do you think a dog can have an over-sensitive reward system? Do you have a reinforcement junkie?

I would say all my dogs are like this. I choose dogs who are likely to want to work very hard for rewards & tend to be on the obsessive side about them, then I foster it & enhance it and use it for training.

I may be oversimplifying things, but would say that a large percentage of agility & flyball dogs are exactly as you have described, for many of us, this type of nature is what we desire on a dog and is necessary to allow us to train the complex behaviours with the reliability & speed we want. Many of them do present challenges with self control, but I don't think they are insurrmountable for the average trainer.

Le hammer who is a vet & teaches/competes on agility often talks about some dogs having fast twitch muscle Fibres. in humans, it is the difference between a spinter & a long distance runner. Thesedogs tend to do even the most basic things very quickly. Sounds like Erik is one of these. I find it a desirable trait, rather than an undesirable one.

I would also say that these types of dogs are likely to find any activity done at speed very reinforcing. Rather than training for calm & self control before we start the speed stuff, we use the speed stuff to reward the calm & self control.

Eta, when I am talking about speed, it is more about speed of response than physical speed across the ground.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Vickie

[corvus]

I would also say that these types of dogs are likely to find any activity done at speed very reinforcing. Rather than training for calm & self control before we start the speed stuff, we use the speed stuff to reward the calm & self control.

I have very much found this to be the case with Erik. I have said before he just doesn't like inactive or calm behaviours and I think most people just think I'm not training it right. That is possibly true. It's not to say he won't do them, I just think he doesn't really enjoy them and I do tend to mix it up with active behaviours or else he starts getting this "Oh no, she's going to tell me to sit" look about him and he starts to do displacement behaviours if I cue a sit when we're out and about. I find that amazing considering what an all-consuming need he has for reinforcement usually. I keep the reward rate really high and that seems to help. My agility instructor said he has to be really solid with his sits before we start cueing him to release from a sit from a distance or else the sit will deteriorate. I wondered at some point if his sit-stays would get stronger if I started cueing a release from a distance anyway, but I thought it best to do what I was told. I've been doing sit and downs in tug and chase games forever with him and I can't say his reliability fills me with pride. He does a default down, and about 90% of the time he holds it, quivering in anticipation even if I dangle the toy on the ground right in front of him, but the other 10% of the time he just throws himself at the toy unexpectedly within moments of sitting or downing. I guess I am not very good at gauging how far he can go.

Don't get me wrong, I adore him, impulsivity and all. He's lots of fun to train. His enthusiasm is infectious. :D

[Max#1]

This is a really interesting thread. You could be describing my puppy!

Initially (2 - 6 months) we were training with food rewards. He was very food motivated and I was so surprised at how quickly and easily he learned a range of things - even complicated tricks like play dead - because I'm definitely no experienced trainer!

While he will sit and drop for me for food (he's now just over 7 months) - I have trouble getting him to hold it (we have to do min or so sits/drops for obedience), and eventually he gives up and goes and does something else when he doesn't get the reward immediately, or close to immediately. (I am also no good at gauging how far he can go! And I have no doubts whatsoever, that I am probably doing something wrong!).

Everything changed when we got a long flyball tug and started doing age-appropriate flyball foundation work. You can imagine - long recalls rewarded with a tug... etc etc. It was really by accident that I discovered the tug could be used to reward everything I want him to do! And you should see him! He'll sit or drop - not taking his eyes off me for a moment, quivering with anticipation, for far longer than he ever would for the food reward! It wasn't til I saw someone rewarding their golden retriever with little fetch games, and tug games at obedience that I realised I could do that too! (Though that's not going to help us with LLW - my biggest challenge at hte moment!)

Any idea if there are some good reading or references for how to train like this?

[Gayle.]

There used to be a girl in my obedience class a few years ago, who had a kelpie bitch like this. The instructor used to encourage verbal praise, pats, treats etc during training but if the kelpies owner did anything more than a quiet, calm, almost off-hand "Good girl", the dog would just go absolutely crazy to the point where it would take her 10 minutes or more to settle her down and focus again.

It was a dog for whom working had it's own rewards, she didn't need the owner to also reward her.